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Shadow · 01-16-2019, 08:25 PM

In thread "ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION-A-TIGER (panthera tigris)" has been mentioned pack sizes of dholes. I suggest, that discussion about pack sizes and how people maybe have had effect on that, would be discussed here, because that for sure fits better to this thread. It can possibly be a little bit longer discussion alone, after all.

I noticed watching documentary which I linked here, that narrator mentioned, that dholes were at one point hunted almost to extinction before someone "waked up" and they got protection. Before that they were total outlaws and money was paid for killed ones. If I understood right, there were less than a hundred left at that point (?). I feel, that when some species is forced to so bad condition, it could cause changes in behavior and what Jimmy was wondering about pack size reduction actually sounds like one serious possibility to at least think about. We are talking about one quite smart species showing ability to adapt behavior.

Even though Corbett and Anderson are for me at least partially more like storytellers than solid reliable sources, maybe they had some reason to describe huge packs. Maybe somewhat exaggerated numbers, but still it is easy to think, that packs could have been at least about 20 individuals. If there are other sources to use, than Corbett and Anderson, it for sure would give more credibility to such hypothesis. After I have seen some of their stories, I just can´t take them too seriously. And when I saw how Sunquist and Suinquist used for instance Corbett as a sourse in their texts, also those swedish got in my thoughts a little bit questionable label :)

Anyway it would be interesting to see what sources can be found and what kind of observations. Luckily dholes are recovering and with time there can be some new information too, but that can take still quite some time, there are not that many even today as there once in time was... :/

Shadow · 01-16-2019, 10:04 PM

Here in the number 3/27 photo of slide show I counted 13 dholes, of course many are pups.

https://www.arkive.org/dhole/cuon-alpinu...G5809.html

In this when looking carefully, I find 20 dholes in pack.

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-asiati...d0%26pl%3d

Diffucult one, but looks like to be 13-14 dholes.

http://www.outdoorconservation.eu/featur...eatureid=3

In this 12 dholes visible.

http://www.saevus.in/magazine/index.php?...D9nj1wzZPY

18 dholes.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/50787522@N00/5197161521/

Shadow · 01-16-2019, 10:29 PM

Here is a pack of 28 dholes. In one photo was managed to get 17 of them at same time.

http://walkthewilderness.net/on-a-hunt-w...-wild-dog/

Shadow · 01-16-2019, 10:33 PM

Here is described dhole pack of 28 members from 2010. They managed to get in one photo 17 members of that pack. I have found also a photo where is 20 dholes, but those are in dhole thread. I put this here because it actually looks like, that in this matter old stories seem to be not exaggerated. At least pack of 30 dholes looks like to be realistic.

http://walkthewilderness.net/on-a-hunt-w...-wild-dog/

Shadow · 01-17-2019, 12:43 AM

One news clip from India. Btw here is also mentioned, that there are observations, that in areas, where dholes thrive, tiger numbers can drop. Actually quite interesting because I remember reading about same phenomena once.

I put link here if that video doesn´t open here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa9DyJcz97Q

Pckts · 01-17-2019, 01:10 AM

(01-17-2019, 12:43 AM)Shadow Wrote: One news clip from India. Btw here is also mentioned, that there are observations, that in areas, where dholes thrive, tiger numbers can drop. Actually quite interesting because I remember reading about same phenomena once.

I put link here if that video doesn´t open here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa9DyJcz97Q

I'd wager it's the other way around, Tiger numbers are high, Dholes numbers will drop and if there aren't many Tigers, Dholes can thrive.

You see it in many parks with large Tiger presence, in fact in Tadoba as the Tiger numbers have risen, their Dhole numbers have dropped.
You'll be hard pressed to see a Dhole in Taboba, Pench or Kanha, while you'll see a Tiger almost certainly if you're there for a few days.
"As tigers instinctively kill dholes, the increase in tiger population in Tadoba perhaps has also been an additional reason contributing to the decline of Dhole population here."
https://svasararesorts.com/latest-at-svasara/blog/dholes-indian-wilddogs/

Hopefully we'll find out more on Dholes in the years to come...
Check this out
In a first, wildlife scientists have collared a dhole, the Indian wild dog, with a satellite transmitter to study the habits of the endangered species.

With less than 2,500 individuals surviving in the wild globally, the dhole is already extinct in about 10 Asian countries.

It took a team of scientists from the Wildlife Institute of India (WII) over 10 days to to track down a pack of 14 dholes in Bishanpura meadow in the Mukki range of the Kanha National Park. The team tranquilised an adult female, tested its health and fixed a tracking collar around its neck as the rest of pack cautiously observed from a distance.

“We don’t know a lot of aspects of their ecology, which makes conserving dholes far more difficult than tigers,” said Y.V. Jhala, senior scientist at WII.
Conservation ecologists believe the renewed efforts can help protect dholes
https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy-and-environment/wildlife-scientists-satellite-collar-a-dhole/article24464757.ece

Shadow · 01-17-2019, 01:43 AM

(01-17-2019, 01:10 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(01-17-2019, 12:43 AM)Shadow Wrote: One news clip from India. Btw here is also mentioned, that there are observations, that in areas, where dholes thrive, tiger numbers can drop. Actually quite interesting because I remember reading about same phenomena once.

I put link here if that video doesn´t open here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa9DyJcz97Q

I'd wager it's the other way around, Tiger numbers are high, Dholes numbers will drop and if there aren't many Tigers, Dholes can thrive.

You see it in many parks with large Tiger presence, in fact in Tadoba as the Tiger numbers have risen, their Dhole numbers have dropped.
You'll be hard pressed to see a Dhole in Taboba, Pench or Kanha, while you'll see a Tiger almost certainly if your there for a few days.
"As tigers instinctively kill dholes, the increase in tiger population in Tadoba perhaps has also been an additional reason contributing to the decline of Dhole population here."
https://svasararesorts.com/latest-at-svasara/blog/dholes-indian-wilddogs/

Hopefully we'll find out more on Dholes in the years to come...
Check this out
In a first, wildlife scientists have collared a dhole, the Indian wild dog, with a satellite transmitter to study the habits of the endangered species.

With less than 2,500 individuals surviving in the wild globally, the dhole is already extinct in about 10 Asian countries.

It took a team of scientists from the Wildlife Institute of India (WII) over 10 days to to track down a pack of 14 dholes in Bishanpura meadow in the Mukki range of the Kanha National Park. The team tranquilised an adult female, tested its health and fixed a tracking collar around its neck as the rest of pack cautiously observed from a distance.

“We don’t know a lot of aspects of their ecology, which makes conserving dholes far more difficult than tigers,” said Y.V. Jhala, senior scientist at WII.
Conservation ecologists believe the renewed efforts can help protect dholes
https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy-and-environment/wildlife-scientists-satellite-collar-a-dhole/article24464757.ece

I know what I read, it takes some time to find it though, but when I find I put it here for everyone to see. I have read so much about tigers, that hard to remember everything :) Anyway case in latest dhole conversation isn´t about it (imo), that dholes would be some major problem for tigers. But more about it, that there are many different kind of sources telling that story, that time to time dholes can confront tigers and even make tiger back off for some reason or another.

Bigger, more experienced pack of dholes and more hungry could be one reason to challenge even a tiger when meeting on some kill/carcass. There can be some point in numbers, where "balance" is giving advance to one and then another. It is interesting interaction to learn more. I actually just discussed shortly wih one person who told how he saw 2010 in Kanha national park how a pack of dholes chase away a tiger, which walked right in the middle of that pack. But he didn´t catch it on video, pity :/ But maybe something can be found when digging in more.

Even though tiger and dhole confrontations are quite marginal issue for both species, why not trying to find out now when it has been discussed :)

Shadow · 01-17-2019, 01:55 AM

Dholes stealing carcass from a wild boar.

~~paul cooper~~ · 01-17-2019, 02:11 AM

"Tigers are behaviorally dominate to leopards and dholes".

https://books.google.com/books?id=Z6USDA...al&f=false

Pckts · 01-17-2019, 02:12 AM

(01-17-2019, 01:43 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-17-2019, 01:10 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(01-17-2019, 12:43 AM)Shadow Wrote: One news clip from India. Btw here is also mentioned, that there are observations, that in areas, where dholes thrive, tiger numbers can drop. Actually quite interesting because I remember reading about same phenomena once.

I put link here if that video doesn´t open here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa9DyJcz97Q

I'd wager it's the other way around, Tiger numbers are high, Dholes numbers will drop and if there aren't many Tigers, Dholes can thrive.

You see it in many parks with large Tiger presence, in fact in Tadoba as the Tiger numbers have risen, their Dhole numbers have dropped.
You'll be hard pressed to see a Dhole in Taboba, Pench or Kanha, while you'll see a Tiger almost certainly if your there for a few days.
"As tigers instinctively kill dholes, the increase in tiger population in Tadoba perhaps has also been an additional reason contributing to the decline of Dhole population here."
https://svasararesorts.com/latest-at-svasara/blog/dholes-indian-wilddogs/

Hopefully we'll find out more on Dholes in the years to come...
Check this out
In a first, wildlife scientists have collared a dhole, the Indian wild dog, with a satellite transmitter to study the habits of the endangered species.

With less than 2,500 individuals surviving in the wild globally, the dhole is already extinct in about 10 Asian countries.

It took a team of scientists from the Wildlife Institute of India (WII) over 10 days to to track down a pack of 14 dholes in Bishanpura meadow in the Mukki range of the Kanha National Park. The team tranquilised an adult female, tested its health and fixed a tracking collar around its neck as the rest of pack cautiously observed from a distance.

“We don’t know a lot of aspects of their ecology, which makes conserving dholes far more difficult than tigers,” said Y.V. Jhala, senior scientist at WII.
Conservation ecologists believe the renewed efforts can help protect dholes
https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy-and-environment/wildlife-scientists-satellite-collar-a-dhole/article24464757.ece

I know what I read, it takes some time to find it though, but when I find I put it here for everyone to see. I have read so much about tigers, that hard to remember everything :) Anyway case in latest dhole conversation isn´t about it (imo), that dholes would be some major problem for tigers. But more about it, that there are many different kind of sources telling that story, that time to time dholes can confront tigers and even make tiger back off for some reason or another.

Bigger, more experienced pack of dholes and more hungry could be one reason to challenge even a tiger when meeting on some kill/carcass. There can be some point in numbers, where "balance" is giving advance to one and then another. It is interesting interaction to learn more. I actually just discussed shortly wih one person who told how he saw 2010 in Kanha national park how a pack of dholes chase away a tiger, which walked right in the middle of that pack. But he didn´t catch it on video, pity :/ But maybe something can be found when digging in more.

Even though tiger and dhole confrontations are quite marginal issue for both species, why not trying to find out now when it has been discussed :)

I have little doubt that a large pack could chase off a Tiger, especially if caught off guard.
I've seen every which cat be chased off by something that it probably could of killed if it were so inclined, there are no scripts and nothing goes the exact same way every time.

I was strictly speaking on the Dhole numbers correlating with Tiger numbers, that's all.

In regards to discussing Dhole and Tigers, we've been doing so for quite some time, even gathering most accounts and posting them here.

Even this video that you posted shows you just what kind of Numbers a Dhole Pack would really need before they could even think of attacking a Tigress, let a lone a healthy male.

Sanjay Shukla
This one was of the most interesting interactions of tiger seen by me in Pench Tiger Reserve, Seoni. T-50 or "Langdi" had come out of the water hole and was resting in the shade of a nearby tree. I waited for almost two hours in the scorching heat, thinking that she would come again to cool her off in the water hole. In the meantime a large pack of 18 Dholes reached the water hole and soon they all were in the water. They came out within 5 mins but again after almost 15 mins they were in the water. As I had expected, the tigress rose and started walking towards the water hole. As soon as the Dholes saw her they all rushed out of the water. Now the forest was echoing with their shrieking yell. They all made a sort of ring around tigress keeping a safe distance and kept harassing her. The quality of video is not good but shows an interesting interaction.

~~paul cooper~~ · 01-17-2019, 02:18 AM

"Leopard and dhole had low rates of co-occurrence with tiger, indicating fine-scale spatial avoidance, and their detection probabilities were 47–52 per cent lower in tiger-occupied open grasslands (despite suitable prey there) compared to closed forest. Tigers were active mostly at night, whereas leopard and dhole were mainly diurnal, suggesting some temporal avoidance as well."

"Tiger and dhole distributions in Kuiburi were strikingly divergent: dhole occupancy was 3 times higher than tiger in the north, where tigers and prey were scarce, but 4 times lower than tiger in the centre, where Kuiburi’s remaining tigers and prey were concentrated. This pattern is suggestive of mesopredator release—the release of smaller predators from top-down control on abundance and distribution after the decline of an apex predator. It is a common phenomenon around the world concurrent with the global decline of apex predators, but has not been documented before in Southeast Asia."

"In sum, tiger distribution was driven solely by prey availability, whereas leopard and dhole were influenced by a trade-off between prey availability and avoidance of tigers, mediated by habitat structure."

http://wwf.panda.org/wwf_news/?209907/Co...ional-Park

Shadow · 01-17-2019, 02:33 AM

(01-17-2019, 02:12 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(01-17-2019, 01:43 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-17-2019, 01:10 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(01-17-2019, 12:43 AM)Shadow Wrote: One news clip from India. Btw here is also mentioned, that there are observations, that in areas, where dholes thrive, tiger numbers can drop. Actually quite interesting because I remember reading about same phenomena once.

I put link here if that video doesn´t open here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa9DyJcz97Q

I'd wager it's the other way around, Tiger numbers are high, Dholes numbers will drop and if there aren't many Tigers, Dholes can thrive.

You see it in many parks with large Tiger presence, in fact in Tadoba as the Tiger numbers have risen, their Dhole numbers have dropped.
You'll be hard pressed to see a Dhole in Taboba, Pench or Kanha, while you'll see a Tiger almost certainly if your there for a few days.
"As tigers instinctively kill dholes, the increase in tiger population in Tadoba perhaps has also been an additional reason contributing to the decline of Dhole population here."
https://svasararesorts.com/latest-at-svasara/blog/dholes-indian-wilddogs/

Hopefully we'll find out more on Dholes in the years to come...
Check this out
In a first, wildlife scientists have collared a dhole, the Indian wild dog, with a satellite transmitter to study the habits of the endangered species.

With less than 2,500 individuals surviving in the wild globally, the dhole is already extinct in about 10 Asian countries.

It took a team of scientists from the Wildlife Institute of India (WII) over 10 days to to track down a pack of 14 dholes in Bishanpura meadow in the Mukki range of the Kanha National Park. The team tranquilised an adult female, tested its health and fixed a tracking collar around its neck as the rest of pack cautiously observed from a distance.

“We don’t know a lot of aspects of their ecology, which makes conserving dholes far more difficult than tigers,” said Y.V. Jhala, senior scientist at WII.
Conservation ecologists believe the renewed efforts can help protect dholes
https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy-and-environment/wildlife-scientists-satellite-collar-a-dhole/article24464757.ece

I know what I read, it takes some time to find it though, but when I find I put it here for everyone to see. I have read so much about tigers, that hard to remember everything :) Anyway case in latest dhole conversation isn´t about it (imo), that dholes would be some major problem for tigers. But more about it, that there are many different kind of sources telling that story, that time to time dholes can confront tigers and even make tiger back off for some reason or another.

Bigger, more experienced pack of dholes and more hungry could be one reason to challenge even a tiger when meeting on some kill/carcass. There can be some point in numbers, where "balance" is giving advance to one and then another. It is interesting interaction to learn more. I actually just discussed shortly wih one person who told how he saw 2010 in Kanha national park how a pack of dholes chase away a tiger, which walked right in the middle of that pack. But he didn´t catch it on video, pity :/ But maybe something can be found when digging in more.

Even though tiger and dhole confrontations are quite marginal issue for both species, why not trying to find out now when it has been discussed :)

I have little doubt that a large pack could chase off a Tiger, especially if caught off guard.
I've seen every which cat be chased off by something that it probably could of killed if it were so inclined, there are no scripts and nothing goes the exact same way every time.

I was strictly speaking on the Dhole numbers correlating with Tiger numbers, that's all.

In regards to discussing Dhole and Tigers, we've been doing so for quite some time, even gathering most accounts and posting them here.

Even this video that you posted shows you just what kind of Numbers a Dhole Pack would really need before they could even think of attacking a Tigress, let a lone a healthy male.

Sanjay Shukla
This one was of the most interesting interactions of tiger seen by me in Pench Tiger Reserve, Seoni. T-50 or "Langdi" had come out of the water hole and was resting in the shade of a nearby tree. I waited for almost two hours in the scorching heat, thinking that she would come again to cool her off in the water hole. In the meantime a large pack of 18 Dholes reached the water hole and soon they all were in the water. They came out within 5 mins but again after almost 15 mins they were in the water. As I had expected, the tigress rose and started walking towards the water hole. As soon as the Dholes saw her they all rushed out of the water. Now the forest was echoing with their shrieking yell. They all made a sort of ring around tigress keeping a safe distance and kept harassing her. The quality of video is not good but shows an interesting interaction.

Yes there are many discussions about these things, some seem to be endless. Well, it is not dangerous to look at situation time to time and see if there is something new or not. Dholes are interesting species and seems to deserve some attention too. I wouldn´t be surprised if some tigers have backed off sometimes, that is how nature works. Usually things go one way, but then again sometimes other way. Tigers are no robots and can be scared too, more surprising situation, more possible it is. Of course that doean´t mean, that tiger would suffer more than some "mental damages" Wink

~~brotherbear~~ · 01-17-2019, 03:09 AM

creative.sulekha.com/vanishing-species-the-dhole-indian-wild-dog_384119_blog

Vanishing Species - The Dhole (Indian Wild Dog).

Pckts · 01-17-2019, 04:52 AM

(01-16-2019, 11:16 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(01-16-2019, 08:40 PM)Wolverine Wrote:
(01-16-2019, 09:46 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Again, the videos that you posted shows that the dholes are very nervous and are trying to disctract the tiger or drive it away. Tiger, on the other hand, dominate them, attack them or simply ignore them.

I have hard time to see a "domination" in some of these videos. Yes, dholes are cautious, but they obviously don't afraid of the tiger at all, they are impudent, cautious and curious altogether.

You don't see a hierarchy there?
The Tiger walks calmly and rests in the water while the Dholes are nervous and make alarm calls much like any other Prey.

I have little doubt that a large pack could drive off a Tiger, I have major doubts that a pack of any size could kill a healthy mature Male, it doesn't happen in Africa and I assume it won't happen in India as well.
I also have similar doubts in regards to a Tigress but I have seen both Hyena and AWD's be far more aggressive with Females than with Males so they obviously know the difference between the two and the threats they create.

It was actually Sanjay Shukla's video, I posted it in the Dhole thread but here's his description of what happened

Sanjay Shukla

This one was of the most interesting interactions of tiger seen by me in Pench Tiger Reserve, Seoni. T-50 or "Langdi" had come out of the water hole and was resting in the shade of a nearby tree. I waited for almost two hours in the scorching heat, thinking that she would come again to cool her off in the water hole. In the meantime a large pack of 18 Dholes reached the water hole and soon they all were in the water. They came out within 5 mins but again after almost 15 mins they were in the water. As I had expected, the tigress rose and started walking towards the water hole. As soon as the Dholes saw her they all rushed out of the water. Now the forest was echoing with their shrieking yell. They all made a sort of ring around tigress keeping a safe distance and kept harassing her. The quality of video is not good but shows an interesting interaction.

Pckts · 01-17-2019, 04:55 AM

*This image is copyright of its original author

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