|
For Waverider
|
This was post in the Edge of the Extinction-Tiger topic. I think is correct to post it here too.
This second video is even more interesting, the tiger is measured and weighed! Check that they use a cloth tape like Dr Sunquist mentioned:  *This image is copyright of its original author He measured the head first, check that he hold the tape as straight as possible but the cloth on the head curved it, although not at purpose. Probably measured c.50 curved, or c.40 cm straight, but is just a guess:  *This image is copyright of its original author Later he take the body length from the base of the head to the rout of tail, again holding a straight line, not curving the tape nor pressing in any point, just like Dr Sunquist's method. The only difference is that Dr Sunquist holds the tiger's head, but in this case is not necessary. Using my own cloth tape, I guess (and is a mere guess) that the male had a base of head to tail rout of c.150 cm:  *This image is copyright of its original author If its head measured at least c.40 cm straight, we can guess a head-body of c.190 cm, a good size for a Bengal male. Latter, they weighed the male, sadly they do not show the figure, but IF this is T-3, we know that he weighed 240 kg.  *This image is copyright of its original author Wow, thanks @peter, as you show us these two videos.
Other video, from a Snow leopard, been measured in straight line:
First, they hold the tape straight, like it should be:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Later, one person push it to the body, curving it, but just in one point, not in all points:  *This image is copyright of its original author However, another person seems to correct it (I guess) and the tape is again hold in a straight line:  *This image is copyright of its original author Again, they measured the animal in straight line:  *This image is copyright of its original author The person seems to be pressing the tape here, but it is probably because they are taking the head-body. Still, it is in straight line, barely, if any, curved:  *This image is copyright of its original author Someone could say that even here, there is a curve, however, take in count that the animal is not stretched, just positioned in a straight line. So, the single "curve" that may exist is compensated by this fact, given a result quite close to a measurement between pegs, like Dr Sunquist clearly states in his emails. It seems that the therm "along the curves" in the modern scientific world just means that the tape is in the animal itself, in the flesh, but in any moment we must think that it means that the tape is been pressed in all points, in all the cases. Here we have a tiger and a snow leopard been measured like Dr Sunquist mentioned. Let's add the young Nepalese male tiger and some leopards and cheetahs in Africa that are been measured like this, with the tape in the flesh -along the curves- but been hold straight as possible. This is surely the same method used by Dr Karanth and Dr Barlow.
Another video, this one with a female Sumatran tiger:
No the entire procedure, but again, they use a steel tape and follow a...... straight line:  *This image is copyright of its original author It seems that not all scientists press they tapes in all points, some of them do hold the tape straight, like Dr Sunquist stated.
Measuring a leopard at the Okonjima Game Reserve:
First, they weigh the male - 65.5 kg:  *This image is copyright of its original author Latter, take the length from the head-neck joint to the base of the tail, it seems straight and the steel tape is tight:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Latter a height length, arm full straight and the wrist curved, to simulate a standing height:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Finally, measurements of canines:  *This image is copyright of its original author We can see that the animal is measured along the curves, but following a fairly straight line, with the tape in the live animal, this time using a steel tape. I know of another video of a cheetah, but I can't found it right now. It will be in a next opportunity. Edit: I found it, check the last post.
A cheetah from Okonjima Game Reserve in Namibia:
First, weight the specimen:  *This image is copyright of its original author Later a body measurements, the tape is slightly curved in the body, but pressed only in three points using a steel tape:  *This image is copyright of its original author A height measurement:  *This image is copyright of its original author This is definitely how the previous leopard was measured. This is a good example of an animal been measured "along the curves", but again, the tape is not been pressed in all points, is hold fairly straight, the animal is not unnaturally stretched and like I say before, this method had many variations, different tools and people, and can't be classified as a single, simple and normally used method. This is not showed in the draws of books, and depends of the person making the measurements. Individual pictures or personal testimonies are very important in this cases. 
" This is a good example of an animal been measured "along the curves", but again, the tape is not been pressed in all points, is hold fairly straight, the animal is not unnaturally stretched and like I say before, this method had many variations, different tools and people, and can't be classified as a single, simple and normally used method.
This is not showed in the draws of books, and depends of the person making the measurements. Individual pictures or personal testimonies are very important in this cases. " Bingo! Thats the whole point, @WaveRiders tries to discredit a measurement for tigers like he some how has an idea about how each and every big cat was measured. The variations in this process, whether from an individual or just procedural, are always going to be slightly different. Trying to interpret one from another is already near impossible, trying to discredit a specific biologist or method used is pointless. Unless you're on site for ever cat measured there will always be variation with in a method. I assume there would be variation with in a method even when its done by the same person, no 2 situations are ever the same. They work fast, only have so many resources at their disposal and each situation can be completely different from another. Its the same with his "gorged" argument, it's purely subjective and without base. There is no common "measuring system" to determine how much food the animal had consumed prior, there are visual cues but that seldom tells the whole story and each animal will have eaten a different amount depending on their weight. From what I have seen, a good base for big cats is remove 5% of their body weight, that seems to be a good number if you're so concerned with whether a cat is "gorged or not" but if you're going to do this, you do it with all of them. Trying to pick and choose which cats and how much is purely guess work. I am curious, how many big cats have been captured multiple times? How many of them have been captured multiple times by different people? What were the differences between capture date and body measurements? What were the differences in the big cat that was captured by different people? It truly seems like he's so desperate to close the gap that is only a few inches and KGs, I just don't get it. What does it matter at this point, the overlap between them is quite a common occurrence.
Measurements of a young adult lion:
Check the video first: Two screenshot of the head-body length measurement, altough the measurement in the video is actually from the neck-body union to the end of the hip, not the roth of the tail:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author We can see that they follow the "straight line" method, but they follow other points of union, not the "nose to tail" method of other scientists. Check now the chest girth:  *This image is copyright of its original author They only take half of the grith and extrapolate. Again, is obvious that the methods used by scientists depent of them, they may have read books about methods to measure animals in the field, but at the end, each one had they own form. In few words it is clear that the "standard method" is the group of measurements (total length, head-body, tail, chest, etc...) and not just the form that they are taken. THIS is "crystal clear" based in the collection of videos and images that I posted here. Greetings. (10-14-2016, 01:54 AM)BoldChamp Wrote: I have data on a lion in captivity a little over 280 kg. Guate never used it, and i posted it before. But, i will show some ones i think havent been included in the tables. I have not saw this. You have a 280 kg CAPTIVE lion? Wow that is so irrelevant. I have a 299 kg tiger actually weighed in video and I don't say anything.  
They do measure over the curves in India as well, I have posted my communications with the team that translocated m1 from kanha and he was measured over the curves and same with all translocation they do.
In a wide sense, all the tigers-lions-jaguars-leopards measured by scientists are taken "over curves" or "along the curves". The problem is if they keep the tape straight or if they press the tape in all the ondulations.
I think that this question is crucial as some hold the tape straight (Sunquist) and other, apparently, push it in the ondulations (Miquelle?). The pictures posted here are measurements taken "along the contours" but holding the tape straight. @Pckts, they preseed the tape or they hold it straight? (12-27-2018, 01:23 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: In a wide sense, all the tigers-lions-jaguars-leopards measured by scientists are taken "over curves" or "along the curves". The problem is if they keep the tape straight or if they press the tape in all the ondulations. Unfortunately we didn't get too indepth other than whether it was a straight line or over the curves, but just to give you a little bit about his experience and where he works, I'll put it below "We follow "over the curves " protocol and this must be according to this only ." When I asked about MV2s weight and measurements "195kg" Nose to base of tail , 205 cm, tail 92 cm, Height 125cm" Him Explaining his organisational structure "In India we have several states , Madhya Pradesh is one. Madhya Pradesh has 10 national park and 25 wildlife sanctuaries for wildlife conservation in state . We have six tiger reserves, These six reserves are combined form of the above mentioned national park and sanctuary. Like Bandhavgarh tiger reserve is created from clubbing Bandhavgarh national park and Panpata wildlife sanctuary To take care of wild life related issues in the state , within the above areas and outside these also there is a wildlife headquarters At HQ we have a NGO wing ,which takes care of conservation issues and awareness program ,staff welfare etc. So whatever happens at field level , we at HQ are directly or indirectly associated with that. *NGO = Non governmental organisations* So it works independent of the government setup ,kind of autonomous body So it can work independently and efficiently. I am a government employee , till very recently I was working at Kanha . Also I have work experience at Pench and Satpuda Tiger reserve. But other members in my team are employed on contract by MPTFS" 
This is why I chose this forum instead of Carnivora. This forum doesn't allow the vs debate crap, including the controversial and pointless Lion vs Tiger debate. I have browsed on Carnivora before, but I never joined, (thank goodness), and I swear to all the awesome people here on WildFact that I will NEVER join Carnivora. Especially after what I've heard about it on this thread.
|
| Users browsing this thread: |
| 3 Guest(s) |