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Pleistocene Big Cats
American Lion (Panthera atrox)
American Lion (Panthera atrox)
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American Lion (Panthera atrox)
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 (11-02-2018, 01:49 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(10-23-2018, 04:33 PM)Spalea Wrote: Two sources about the pantera atrox's size: Agree... I have to say that I have never believed to a more-than-450-kilo lion. Thus a 522-kilo-lion is quite unreal. However, taking notice of all I have read about American lion, I think that 300-350 kilos is a reasonable figure. If the cat's body size is 250 cm, and if we add a tail of one meter, as the extant lions have, we have a lenght of 350 cm. Thus 360 cm lenght is anything but absurd. 
Yes, most probably Panthera atrox has never exceeded 400 kg. But its possible than the largest specimens of Panthera fossilis could touch or even exceed a little bit 400 kg margin.
@GuateGojira you are good in weight calculations, do you have dimentions and data of the skeletons of the gigantic specimens of Panthera fossilis found not long ago in Northern Russia (Ural), what are your weight estimations?  *This image is copyright of its original author
 (11-02-2018, 04:28 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Yes, most probably Panthera atrox has never exceeded 400 kg. But its possible than the largest specimens of Panthera fossilis could touch or even exceed a little bit 400 kg margin. In a previous post, don't remember where, I estimated that the only cat that probably weighed about 400 kg, or maybe more, was Panthera fossilis, based in the huge skulls found of this species. The other one that probably reached similar body masses were the largest specimens of Panthera spelaea from the transition phase. Now, in a recent post in the cave "lion" topic (https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-the-cav...is?page=15 - post 213), using the isometrical equation of Sorkin (2008) and Christiansen & Harris (2009), but only with the method suggested by Sorkin (2008; using only the largest/average specimens from certain species) with the largest specimen reported from Panthera fossilis which is 484.7 mm Chateau skull (Marciszak et al. 2014), which is the largest skull from any Felidae on record, I obtained a body mass of 418.4 kg, with posible minimum and maximums of 394.3 kg and 441.5 kg, depending of what specimens we use. I think that a body mass of c.420 kg is a good estimation for the maximum weight for Panthera fossilis, which will make him the largest cat in history. 
Yes @
GuateGojira.... Would you agree that perhaps there is a size limit for big cats which numerous extinct species has reached such as the Ngandong tiger, the cave lion, and the American lion? From the scant size differences as seen in the fossils, I consider that even were they still living breathing animals, the biggest might would still be up for debate.
Information taken from the book Pleistocene Mammals of North America Bjorn Kurten and Elaine Anderson
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
(11-11-2018, 09:02 PM)epaiva Wrote: Wow! You also have the huge Panthera atrox skull from Bone Clones. I was checking the sizes in the website and its size is almoust the same (just a litle diferences in millimeters) to the specimen 2900-3 from Rancho La Brea, which suggest that is a copy of it (although restored as the original fossil is not 100% intact). This means that you have an accurate copy of the second largest skull from Panthera atrox in the world and the one the Christiansen and Harris used in the study of 2009!!! You are very lucky @epaiva 
 (11-17-2018, 09:58 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:(11-11-2018, 09:02 PM)epaiva Wrote: The specimen 2900-3 might have the broadest muzzle of all discovered lion-like felines so far. But wasn't this title supposed to belong to Panthera spelaea instead? (11-17-2018, 10:25 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: The specimen 2900-3 might have the broadest muzzle of all discovered lion-like felines so far. Nop, the specimen 2900-3 was found in the La Brea Tar pits in California, USA. Is from Panthera atrox, here is the table:  *This image is copyright of its original author Here is an image of the BoneClones specimen:  *This image is copyright of its original author I don't think that the muzzle is particularly large, remember that the pictures are deceptive. Maybe @epaiva can put images of him with the skull for comparison. (11-17-2018, 10:40 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:(11-17-2018, 10:25 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: The specimen 2900-3 might have the broadest muzzle of all discovered lion-like felines so far. The muzzle breadth of this skull is 141.4 mm which is wider than the broadest Panthera spelaea muzzle at 138 mm.
You are right, the muzzle of the specimen is the largest of all the ones in the list.
 The largest Panthera atrox skull "Univ. Calif. 14001" is of 135.9 mm. (11-18-2018, 03:56 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: You are right, the muzzle of the specimen is the largest of all the ones in the list. Except the obscure Chinese specimen, the specimen 2900-3 has the broadest muzzle of all. Since Panthera atrox was highly convergent with Panthera onca, so I am not surprising that they had also evolved with massive robust snout.
The muzzle of some of the largest Cave lion skulls
- 484.7 mm Panthera fossilis skull from Chateau - 125.3 mm - 465 mm Panthera fossilis skull from Chateau - 114.1 mm - 475 mm Panthera spelaea skull from Mokhnevskaya Cave - 138 mm - 451 mm Panthera spelaea skull from San River - 138 mm - 467.5 mm Panthera atrox skull Univ. Calif. 14001 - 135.9 mm - 458 mm Panthera atrox skull 2900-3 - 141.4 mm |
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