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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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@GrizzlyClaws
I know. A very free artistic rendition by someone that isn't a paleoartist; the adult muntjac is much smaller than the tiger's head...  (07-07-2018, 07:22 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:(07-07-2018, 01:10 PM)Shir Babr Wrote:(07-06-2018, 06:47 AM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:  *This image is copyright of its original author Comparison between American Lion and Ngandong Tiger  *This image is copyright of its original author Brown bear VS Amur tiger
Tiger and Bear Lazy.
 *This image is copyright of its original author https://deskgram.org/p/1808872646610027729_3118366255   
@peter
I saw some of your posts on tigers and wild boars, and thought you might be interested in seeing these accounts... Juvenile Amur tiger destroys and tears apart a huge, full-grown Russian boar, twice its own size:  *This image is copyright of its original author Young, adolescent tiger crushes a large male Russian boar in a fight: http://amuroopt.ru/tigryi-na-amurskoy-ze...d-spustya/ Another young, small 3 year old Amur tiger that destroyed and tore apart a very large Russian boar, twice its size, and even heavily damages the huge boars skull bone!  *This image is copyright of its original author I already posted this on the 'Tiger predation' thread, but thought it would be good on this thread also... Remains of a huge male Russian boar, with large tusks, that was killed and devoured by a young male tiger named 'Uporny':  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.dvnovosti.ru/khab/2015/10/22/41252/ Go to 29:45 in this documentary, and you'll see a tiger chasing a massive, mature male tusker boar, and the boar is running for its life: Go to 23:43 in this documentary. Its said that the Amur tigress named 'Katya' easily takes down and kills 500lb wild boar, twice her own weight: Even young, juvenile tigers and tigresses hunt and kill giant male Russian boars, that are twice their size, with no problems! 
GENGHIS
Welcome to the forum. I thought that Troinin's story on the wild boar and the tiger was posted some time ago, but I could be wrong. Interesting info anyhow. I assume you visit the site of the AMUR TIGER PROGRAM every now and then. Young Amur tigers released from the rehab center do very well. Not seldom, they hunt wild boars, including adult males. Remarkable, as they often outweigh immature tigers. This is the skull of a male wild boar killed by a male tiger suffering from a deadly disease. The tiger died not long after the fight as a result of the disease:  *This image is copyright of its original author These boars were shot in the northern part of Korea a century ago. They averaged about 420 pounds:  *This image is copyright of its original author The kills of the rehab tigers attracted bears. A young tigress avoided them, but the male known as 'Putin's Tiger' twice killed a young bear (2-3 years of age). At least one of them was a brown bear. WARSAW I recently noticed you, quite surprisingly, got involved in a new discussion on bears and tigers in the Russian Far East. John Vaillant's book on the Sobolonye man-eater ('The Tiger') featured in a number of posts. Part of the discussion was about his remarks on tigers and bears. Some posters used them to underline a statement, whereas others had quite a few doubts. I thought you decided for the doubt department. As to the arguments you presented. Some years ago, you said Vaillant is not a biologist. True. He also came up empty in the personal experience department, you said. Also true. No comparison to those in the know, like Russian biologists who saw things others will never see. True again. But he knew about the tiger and visited the region. This means he was informed and prepared to invest time. Vaillant is a professional. Professional writers know about books and money. This most probably means that Vaillant knew the story, if there was one, wouldn't sell. I mean, how many over here would be interested in a book about a tiger killing a human somewhere in Russia? In spite of that, he wrote the book. Although it was appreciated, the book didn't sell. It's offered in many shops. I'm not saying that Vaillant compares to Dostojevski, but the book proves he's operating in the Premier League. A reputation is a result of time, drive, tenacity and accuracy. One mistake is curtains. Vaillant did a lot of research on the history of the Russian Far East. The other books he published suggest he also knows about the natural world. Although not a specialist on tigers and bears, he knew about the Siberian Tiger Project. He talked to biologists, hunters and locals. When done, he visited biologists able to get to an educated opinion on what he found. Educated underlined. I contacted a biologist working in the Russian Far East. A modest and respected man, who has first hand experience and published about tigers and bears. He said the book was great. I contacted others I consider in the know. Same result. As to tigers and bears in the RFE. In the last decade, new articles were published. Although they contradict each other in some respects, a few things stand out. One is that (brown) bears are an important food source for tigers. Two is that adult bears are included. Three is that tigers don't hunt bears in winter, but when they're available (spring, summer and autumn). Four is that biologists had to adapt their opinion on tigers hunting bears (too dangerous). The details needed to get to a conclusion on interactions between males of both species are lacking, but judging from the number of adult tigers killed in clashes it's very likely they meet quite often. According to Kretchmar, bears do not dominate tigers or the other way round. As male brown have about 160 pounds on male tigers (averages), one could conclude they need a size advantage to keep the balance. Apart from a few large bears, just about anything is possible with tigers and bears, Kerley said. Not that different from what Vaillant wrote. As to your 'humble opinion' on two posters mentioned more than once during the discussion on tigers and bears: it's a public secret that it's largely based on factors not directly related to quality or meaning (preference and animosity). As the other poster added significant quantities of insult, I propose to leave yours truly out of equasions in the future. The internet is a great invention in that it allows for an almost unrestricted exchange of information between people all over the world. If we try to keep 'opinions' and all the rest out of it, it should benefit all of us in the long run. Also remember that forums about the natural world are about just that, not something else. Thanks for the info on the Sungari river tiger. (07-20-2018, 07:55 PM)Genghis Wrote: Juvenile Amur tiger destroys and tears apart a huge, full-grown Russian boar, twice its own size: "Destroy", "crush"... Somebody has been reading too many lame youtube animal fight video titles, lol. The first two claims... isn't it funny how both resemble, specially in the "snout cut with a razor" and "scratched skulls" parts? Is almost like both were talking about the same anecdote... If you read serious zoological literature -or watch videos of actual natural predation- you'll find that predators don't fight bigger, dangerous animals "to the death" just to mutilate them and walk out triumphantly leaving the prize behind. Nature doesn't work that way, specially not animals that need to avoid injuries to keep procuring themselves food. I haven't watched a single video of a feline jumping on the back of another animal to club it in the head with its "mace-like" paws. If you have, please share. You keep using those superlatives, "massive", "huge". The photo of the jawbone has no measures and nothing to compare it with. The 29:45 scene of the documentary Tigers of the snow was filmed from a helicopter and never are the tiger and the boar in the same shot so, how can you claim the boar is "massive"? As for the claim in the second documentary, the keyword is "it's said". You shouldn't take on face value everything you hear. Hell, sometimes you can't even take "reputable" sources seriously : Check 1:28. That's Luke Hunter, CEO of Panthera, in an award-winning multimedia coverage, explaining the cheetah's skull adaptations and differences compared with a leopard, USING A SNOW LEOPARD SKULL... Is preposterous. That last sentence you wrote, "Even young, juvenile tigers and tigresses hunt and kill giant male Russian boars, that are twice their size, with no problems!", is utterly ridiculous unless you're talking about handicapped, sick, old or injured individuals. (07-21-2018, 04:56 PM)Shir Babr Wrote:(07-20-2018, 07:55 PM)Genghis Wrote: Juvenile Amur tiger destroys and tears apart a huge, full-grown Russian boar, twice its own size: Firstly, the description of the fights clearly shows that the tiger 'destroyed' and badly mutilated the boars. The fights were witnessed by naturalists, and the account of the young, adolescent tiger that 'crushed' a large male boar in a fight, was also documented by the biologists that were studying those tigers in the wild. And they also used the word 'CRUSH' so i'm just repeating what the biologist said, so whats wrong with that?... Also, in the 'Tigers of the snow' documentary I posted, you can clearly see that the wild boar is massive in size. Why? Look at the huge girth and physique of the boar. The boar was very heavily built, and if you look closely, you can see it has LARGE tusks. And most importantly, the boar wasn't with a herd, but solitary, and the only wild boars that are solitary are only the huge, mature male boars which usually live alone. For example: "Leopards did not kill wild pig, and dhole rarely killed it, but tigers readily killed large adult boars, which live alone" http://www.ecology.info/tiger-leopard.htm See, it says that 'large' adult boars live alone. Now, you can even ask Peter, if these boars are large mature male boars, and see what he tells you. And clearly, your probably not aware of even half the accounts I know about tigers fighting other animals in the wild. Its a fact that tigers will fight any creature, no matter how large or powerful, to establish their dominance in their domain. Even Peter has acknowledged that tigers will even attack, fight and kill brown bears solely on principle, not even a predation. There's other reasons to why a tiger would fight a large wild boar like that. Maybe, the huge solitary boar was in the tigers territory, or maybe the tiger attempted a predation, failed the ambush and had to end up fighting the boar to kill it. We have examples exactly like this of tigers killing large adult brown bears, where they killed the bear after a prolonged fight. So your clearly wrong, go do your homework, before you accuse me of anything. In the second documentary I posted, again it clearly states that the tigress 'Katya' EASILY takes down 500lb wild boar, almost twice her own weight. Now, why is that so hard to believe? Since we have many confirmed reports of young, juvenile and adolescent tigers taking down and killing large male Russian boars. So yes, that statement is most definately true using logic and common sense. And the skull I posted of the Russian boar that was killed by a young male tiger, clearly belonged to a large male boar. Why? Because in the actual report, it states that the boar was a 'large male boar' killed by the tiger, and it had huge tusks, which again, belong to huge mature male boars! https://www.dvnovosti.ru/khab/2015/10/22/41252/ And when I said juvenile tigers and tigresses hunt and kill huge male boars 'with no problems' ...I didn't mean they can takedown large boars in a matter of seconds, what I meant was that they can tackle and kill huge wild boars, without getting injured in the process themselves. Thats what I meant by no problems. Now, lets show you more proof then... Here's a tigress that kills a very large mature male Indian boar, in a frontal attack: (Look how stocky and powerfully built the boar is) Here's a fight between an Amur tigress and a large male tusker boar. Now, notice how the boar viciously charges the tigress to gore her, and watch how easily and swiftly the tigress evades the boars charges with supreme agility. Then at the 1:30 mark, the tigress secures a deadly-grip on the huge boars head, which the boar couldn't shake off, and then was most likely destined to be the tigress's dinner: Here's a 16 month old tigress cub, that attacks and kills a large full-grown male boar: Note: the tiger cub lost the element of surprise, which then turned out to be a frontal attack!  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Thats a 16 month old tigress cub, so that tells you ALOT. So please, don't ever accuse me of being a guy who reads too many "lame youtube animal-fight video titles", because you know nothing about me, period. Its a well known fact that tigers of all ages, regularly hunt and kill large male Russian and Indian boars, and usually have no problems taking them down. Like it or not, thats your problem. (07-21-2018, 11:14 AM)peter Wrote: GENGHIS Yes Peter, I do visit the site 'Amur tiger program'...and like you i'm also fascinated by the relationship between tigers and brown bears. And I've also got some data from scientific literature on tiger and brown bear, face-to-face confrontations, which actually shows that tigers dominate brown bears even in direct confrontations. I can post it, if you want? And I've already seen that skull of the large male boar that was killed by the tiger, that died of a terrible disease. Judging by the size of the boars skull, how large or heavy do you think a boar like that would be??
SHIR BABR
Thread content management is part of the job of the one who started the thread. Not someone else. This thread is about good information, not something else. Dismissing other posters is 'something else'. Not appreciated. The first post of Genghis was ok. Says me. As to the words he used. They often appear in reports written by Russian naturalists and biologists. The descriptions may seem a bit over the top at times, but so were the things they saw. Wild boars in the Russian Far East are considered as very dangerous. This is why they are not often hunted. They also are large. Way larger than anywhere else, according to those who know: http://blog.wcs.org/photo/2016/06/03/a-bear-of-a-boar/ https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/polopoly_fs/1.57536!/file/Albarella-et-al-2009-wild-boar-biometry.pdf (pp. 118) In spite of the size of wild boars in the Russian Far East, tigers often hunt them. Adult males are included. One could say Amur tigers thrive on wild boars and be close. This means they learned to deal with them. Many years ago I saw a documentary about Amur tigers on a German channel. The team was following a youngish tigress. When the Russian rangers found an enormous skull of a male wild boar in the snow, they said it had been killed by the tigress they were following. The Germans didn't take them serious, which was repaid in that the Russians decided to call it a day. The Germans, now on their own, did a bit of work in the snow. The conclusion was that the Russians had been right: the boar had been killed by the tigress. And the boar was large. Very large. Young tigers in India leave mom well into their third year. Some of the 2-3 year old males are significantly heavier than an average adult wild male Amur tiger. In Russia, young tigers disperse well before they reach 24 months. They face long winters, deep snow, long distances, large wild boars and scavengers often heavier than they are. You wouldn't favour them, but rehab tigers do quite well. Not a few of them are able to kill adult male wild boars and one young male tiger killed at least two bears interested in his kill. One of these was a young brown bear. It isn't a result of size. Most 2-4 year old male Amur tigers range between 280-360 pounds. Male wild boars are quite a bit heavier. Same for most youngish brown bears interested in tiger kills. In spite of the lack of size, adolescent and young adult Amur tigers (males and females) only very seldom perish in fights with wild boars. Bears are more dangerous, but they too often come up short. In the department of wild boars and bears, Amur tigers are different from other subspecies. As it isn't a result of size, other factors need to be considered. Those who saw things we did not often noticed the tenacity of Amur tigers. The words they used often seem a bit out of the ordinary. One could, as you did, take the easy way out and add a bit of salt. Another option is to go for understanding. You could start with a few facilities. Talk to those who know more than you do. I measured and weighed adult captive big cats. An average adult male Amur tiger is quite something, but I didn't forget the male wild boar I saw at close range in a forest. As impressive, if not more so. Wild boars in the Russian Far East are larger. Those who saw them often were flabberghasted (see above). Solitary old male boars in particular seem way too much for a decent tiger. But they are targeted as well and tigers only very seldom come up short in these fights. Why is that? Based on what I saw so far (referring to your posts), you could do with a bit of reading. How about a few recent articles on tigers and bears? We like posts with good information over here. Way more interesting than posts with the same old crap. When you can't produce anything of interest and decide for a bit of fun (like dismissing others), remember this way of interacting has distinct disadvantages. I don't like it one bit. Same for Sanjay. I agree there's a lot of crap these days, but that doesn't mean that every remarkable story is a result of imagination or hearsay. How about considering a somewhat different approach? There is good information out there, but you got to find it. Way more interesting than another post underlining the amount of garbage on the internet. We know about that one and don't care. None of our business. We started this forum to avoid crap. Well over 7 million views in four years say we're not the only ones interested in good information about the natural world. This post took me the best part of an hour. I consider it wasted energy. When you found something of interest, let us know. Until you do, stay away from this thread. GENGHIS Don't respond to posters out for a bit of fun. That's my job. Focus on reliable information. The info on the Indian tigress and the wild boar is true, but the video says the boar had a problem before he was attacked. Watch his movements and the lack of caution. When attacked, he didn't respond. His problem was her luck. In Russia, an experienced tiger only very seldom decides for a frontal attack. Not when a wild boar is targeted. Tusks and all that. In India, tigers often use a different strategy. Pays as well, but it has a few disadvantages. Not a few tigers have been killed by wild boars in India. In Russia, I only know of a few cases. When you see something remarkable, read it again. And again. When you quote, make sure we know you're quoting. If you have something on tigers and bears that hasn't been posted, we're interested.
@peter
I've noticed from many of your posts in the past, that you love to talk about tigers and brown bears. So, i'll give you my take on this subject and see what you think about it... You say that neither dominates the other, well, I have to strongly disagree with you on that. After looking into this subject for many years, reading countless debates and observing all the legit evidence, to me its very clear and obvious that the tiger dominates the brown bear, period. Why?.... I'll start off with who comes out on top more often, in face-to-face fights. Here's some sources which clearly show's and proves that the tiger is the usual winner against the brown bear: "In 44 recorded encounters between tigers and brown bears, the tiger initiated contact in 12 cases while the bear initiated contact in 8 cases. Of these encounters, 50% resulted in the death of the bear, 27.3% resulted in the death of the tiger and in 22.7% of encounters both animals survived and parted ways" (Page 68): http://www.carnivoreconservation.org/fil...a_2011.pdf So, in direct confrontations, the tiger killed the bear 22 times, and the bear killed the tiger only 12 times. Here's another source from scientific literature, proving tigers win far more often then vice versa: In 45 cases of head-on collisions between tigers and brown bears, 51% of collisions ended with a dead bear, and only 26% of collisions ended with a dead tiger: *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.researchgate.net/publication...THIBETANUS Here's an account of a tiger that challenged a large brown bear over its wild boar kill, and killed the bear after a bloody battle: "We heard one story about how a "large brown bear" having taken on a wild boar and covered it with scat and brushwood to make some "stewed boar, bear style," suddenly got paid a visit by a hungry tiger. Oh how much blood got shed! The owner of the kill died of terrible wounds and the disfigured tiger, moving off like a drunk, didn't even bother with the fresh spoils of the kill" (Page 23)... http://www.wf.ru/tiger/book/The%20Amur%20Tiger.pdf I'm assuming that was a large male brown bear. Here's a journal I came across, which states that the tiger is the usual winner over the brown bear: "S.P. Kucherenko notes that the average tiger is always stronger then the average bear"... "But indeed from the scientific literature it follows that the tiger not only is NOT inferior to the bear, but even more frequently it leaves as conqueror" https://shish02.livejournal.com/7269.html?thread=55909 I've not seen a single fight statistic which shows the brown bear coming out on top more then the tiger, not one. From what I've seen and heard, most, if not all Russian biologists agree that the tiger is superior and is the usual winner in a fight. What confirmed it even more for me, is this taxidermy, which shows a male tiger and a male brown bear fighting, and you can clearly see, the tiger is in the more dominant position, and biting the bear in his neck: .jpg/440px-Tiger_and_bear%2C_Arsenev_Regional_History_Museum_(Vladivostok%2C_2004).jpg) *This image is copyright of its original author Now, I asked myself, if an adult male brown bear is more formidable then a male tiger, then why would the Russians depict the fight in such a way, which looks like the tiger is winning! Its because thats the usual outcome. The tiger wins far more often then not over the brown bear. The clear statistics documented by the biologists show it, and this taxidermy shows it. Now, to predations; Scientific research has shown that tigers actually regularly hunt and kill brown bears and that bears are a very important seasonal prey for tigers, especially during the summer months. Bear hairs have also been found repeatedly in the autumn faeces of tigers too. Its also a fact that tigers do kill LARGER Brown bears then themselves, which was also confirmed by Linda Kerley in her email. In fact, here's an account reported by Kerley and J. Goodrich of a 200kg male tiger that specialized in killing brown bears larger then itself: (I'm sure you've seen this account before). *This image is copyright of its original author Here's a scientific article, showing that tigers consumed more bears then wild boars, during the snow-free period: "Across all sites, tiger diet varied seasonally, with tigers consuming more bear, and less wild boar biomass during the snow-free months" (Page 359)... "In addition, bears constituted a significantly higher proportion of tiger diet in the summer, and while not significant, badgers increased in the diet of tigers during the snow-free period as well"... "The increased predation on bears and badgers is likely due to their increased availability following emergence from hibernation and the increased vulnerability of their young, although tigers do prey on adult bears. Amur tiger predation on bear is not a new phenomenon, but our results, in addition to identifying seasonality in tiger predation of bears, also suggests that bears constitute a relatively large portion of tiger diet, particularly during the snow-free period"...(Page 360) https://www.researchgate.net/publication...n_Far_East Peter, I also noticed that you said "There's no question that large male bears dominate"...Well, I've never seen any proof of that claim. If large male bears dominate tigers, then why isn't there a single confirmed case, of even the biggest and baddest male brown bears out there, ever challenging a healthy adult male tiger?.. Why do the very large male brown bears deliberately pick on much smaller female tigers and cubs, and never prime male tigers? In fact, here's a source stating, that bears prefer to contest the much smaller female tigers, lest it become an item of tiger diet": *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Alot of people, grossly exaggerate about bears "usurping" kills from tigers, and act like most of the time, its "direct" usurping and that their taking kills from adult male tigers, which is a complete LIE. If you actually look at the context of these cases, MAJORITY of the time, the bear will wait for the tigress to have her share of the kill and leave the area. Thats when the bear will make his move and usurp the kill. Most cases are not even direct usurps, like alot of people make it out to be: "Bears exploited tiger kills after a tiger had left, by usurping a kill, or by "sharing" a kill at alternate times" https://www.researchgate.net/publication...THIBETANUS On top of that, there's not a single confirmed modern day record of a brown bear even killing an adult tigress! There's not a single case ever, of a brown bear ever killing a larger tiger then itself, whereas we have several records and statements from biologists, that confirm that tigers can and do kill larger brown bears then themselves. There's also not a single confirmed account, of a brown bear ever killing a healthy adult male tiger too. Even the largest male brown bears out there, completely avoid and fear male tigers. I've not seen any evidence whatsoever, proving otherwise. So Peter, with all due respect, I do think your kind of misinforming people, with saying that large male bears definately "dominate", when blatant evidence has shown that they completely avoid adult male tigers and never dare to usurp their kills. Honestly, the reason why I think this has been a debate for many years, is because there's many Bearfanz and bear enthusiasts out there, who can't handle the fact that such a large and powerful animal like the brown bear gets dominated and regularly killed and eaten by tigers, but its just the truth. I also thought you might want to see this video of John Vaillant also talking about the tigers dominance over the Russian grizzly: Go to the 11:29 mark, and he's asked about tigers and big Russian bears/Grizzly bears, and he states the following: "The tiger has a inborn sense of total dominance over its domain. Russian brown bears are the equivalent of our Grizzly, the tiger attacks, kills and eats them on a regular basis, I've seen video of a tiger charging a helicopter. So they have this inborn sense that there's nothing out there, thats bigger and badder then me and they act on that": In the same interview, he states that he talked to people, who have worked with tigers their whole life. So clearly, he was told that the tiger dominates the brown bear. And Peter, if you disagree with anything I said, then could you post the evidence backing your claim, that would be great. (07-21-2018, 07:01 PM)Genghis Wrote: Now, lets show you more proof then... Ok. First video is an Indian boar, smaller than Russian boars, clearly not "twice the size of the tiger", neither it was interested in fighting but escaping. But good video. No mutilation or clubbing though. Second video, don't think you can tell, but that's a movie. It's edited. It was to some degree controlled and it might be comprised of footage from different individuals. Watch when the hunters approach the dead boar, does it look like very big to you? Third video, again, an Indian boar that's isn't bigger than the young tigress, even more, is visibly unwell; it didn't even noticed the tiger splashing out of water until it was already on his face, and you can see his ribs are visible. That animal wasn't ok at all. So in summary, none of those videos proved those claims from the first post. (07-22-2018, 06:07 AM)peter Wrote: When you found something of interest, let us know. Until you do, stay away from this thread. Really @peter? So I'm a troll and shit poster now for questioning anecdotes of full grown male boars with limbs yanked off during a fight with a tiger, claims of giant sizes with no measurements and fighting techniques that have been never documented on video or photo, and all stated as if they were holy gospel? Wow. I've seen people on the forum posting photos of what can only be labelled as animal cruelty for no reason, without you chastising them as me for this. I never denied that tigers are able to kill big adult boars, neither I said that tigers are weak or whatever (I never express in that manner), but just like with most other predation from other carnivores on other types of big prey, it must meet certain criteria most of the time, that's all; bobcats can kill adult deer, but mostly in deep snow, for example. I love animals but I'm a simple layman that has read and watched documentaries for some years, and from that I learned that many of the things that naturalists (not to mention hunters and so on) claimed aren't true. Lions don't kill prey by twisting their necks with the paws. Clouded leopards are much less arboreal than previously stated. Mane size in lions isn't just dictated by testosterone. Even field zoologists that worked with snow leopards stated that they hunted in the typical feline fashion by stalking the prey and rushing them from a short distance, but video evidence has contradicted that claims and proven that snow leopards, much like cheetahs, are in fact, chasers. I honestly find kinda strange that you compared my post with the trash from the internet, when stating anecdotes with no proof as facts and using biased aggrandizing adjectives and verbs is more in the lines of that. Sorry if I wasted an hour of your time. English isn't my first language and I'm self taught, so I know writing a paragraph can be lengthy. I'm no troll, biased, animal fight fanatic, I'm just not, and I think most of my other posts can attest to that. But you're the boss here and I respect you. This is my last reply on this thread, I promise. Edit: "What confirmed it even more for me, is this taxidermy, which shows a male tiger and a male brown bear fighting, and you can clearly see, the tiger is in the more dominant position, and biting the bear in his neck:" *This image is copyright of its original author I rest my case with that...
GHENGIS
In my previous post, I addressed a post of a new member ridiculing your post on tigers and wild boars in the thread 'On the Edge of Extinction - Part A - The Tiger (Panthera tigris'). In that post, I said you can post about tigers and bears, provided it is new information. I also adviced you to check your sources before posting. Based on what you posted after that post, the conclusion is you used the support you got to post outright misinformation (in the thread 'Tiger Predation') and something quite close to that in this thread (referring to your post on tigers and bears). As a result, I'm forced to invest more time in things I want to avoid at all costs. I'm now done with cleaning the mess. Stay away from this thread for now (see the last paragraph). Below, I'll address some of the issues referred to above. TIGER PREDATION THREAD Yesterday, you posted a picture of a bear " ... killed and partly consumed by a tiger ..." in the Russian Far East in the thread 'Tiger Predation'. When I told you the bear had been killed by another bear, you demanded convincing evidence. A new member ignoring good advice and demanding undisputed evidence from one of the co-owners? Right. Here's the response. I demand you read forum rules before posting. I demand you check your sources before posting. This is not a game, but a public forum offering information about an unseen world rapidly disappearing right in front of our eyes. I don't want you to post anything that fits your opinion. I want you to post good (reliable) information. What we don't want is misinformation. It's a fact you used our forum to misinform the general public. Not happening. THIS THREAD In my response to your post on tigers and wild boars, I invited you to post info on tigers and bears, provided it was new information. It is about the last part of the sentence. To be more concrete: everything you offered, was posted some time ago. You said you knew about this thread. I assumed you read all pages. Apparently, you did not. In contrast to your post in the thread 'Tiger Predation' (outright misinformation), your post on tigers and bears in the thread 'On the Edge of Extinction - Part A - The Tiger (Panthera tigris)' will not be deleted. There are two reasons. One is you announced it's largely based on an opinion. Two is the information you used to get to your conclusion isn't bad per se. In spite of all that, the post is below par. The reason is you (mis)used information to get to general statements about tigers and bears. This, as you announced, largely is a result of a firm opinion. Those operating in that department often try to find information underlining the conclusion they got to long before they started to read. In this way, a new reality is created. The problem is it isn't there. I'm not saying it compares to what is seen on the internet all too often, but it's close. HOW MISUSE INFORMATION - LESSON 1 a - You like a particular species and consider it capable of overcoming large brown bears. a - You start reading and find something you like on tigers and bears. Serious literature and percentages, if possible. b - You use the info to state that 'tigers' often best 'bears' in a fight. c - You add a few decent oneliners you found in articles underlining the conclusions you got to in -b-. d - You add a few pictures underlining the points you made in -b-. e - You then enter the department of adult males and state the conclusions in -b- hold. f - You add a few spices (scans of popular books will do) in order to finish a delightful salad. g - You then offer it to someone you need to get on your side. h - When he still has a few doubts, you add a lecture of a man who wrote a well-praised book he liked. THE FLIPSIDE OF PREFERENCE Most posters interested in a specific animal are driven by preference. Nothing wrong with that, but you got to avoid the familiar pitfalls when you decide to go public. The thing to remember is that you do preference at home. Outside, you got to deal with reality. Reality and preference don't mix. When you opt for preference, stay at home. When you go public, you have to adjust many fixed ideas just about every day. When they look back on their life, most people considered 'in the know' by many say they 'know' next to nothing about the things they did. Ever wondered why that is? Big cats are professional hunters. They are specialists walking the edge just about every day. Specialisation comes at a price. Most cubs never reach adulthood. Adult wild big cats seldom die of old age. Death is always close. Bears, apart from polar bears, are omnivores. Those who do protein (fish) are much larger than those who don't. Brown bears, depending on the criterium used, reach adulthood between 6-10 years of age and keep growing most of their life. Wild big cats seldom reach 15 years, but bears can live more than twice as long. In the Russian Far East, tigers, Himalayan black bears and brown bears have co-existed for thousands of years. In spite of the knowledge collected by naturalists, hunters and biologists, we know next to nothing about the way they interact. What we do know, is that they're still there. This means there is a kind of balance. Tigers are professional hunters. They kill other animals for a living. Bears, no matter what size, like protein too. This is why many bears (of all ages) visit tiger kills. Tigers will defend their kill. Based on what I read, I'd say that tigers and bears meet more often at kill sites than anywhere else. Not a good start. Fights at kill sites often are serious. About half of them have a tragic outcome. Tigers eat what they kill. It's not known why Amur tigers consider bears as a source of food, but my guess is it could have started at kill sites. Recent studies suggest that bears, especially in summer and autumn, are an important food source for tigers. The Siberian Tiger Project was started in 1992. Biologists initially thought that tigers interested in bears would avoid adult bears, but recent studies suggest that adult bears are hunted as well. Biologists had to adjust their conclusion on tigers and bears, that is. What do they mean with 'adult bears'. Himalayan black bears? Brown bears? Adult females? Males? Which 'adult bears' are hunted? Healthy animals or those living on welfare? Which tigers are involved in bears? In what way are bears killed? There are many questions. As most of them can't be answered for lack of information, it isn't easy to get to conclusions. Quite a few biologists asked about tigers and bears say 'anything is possible'. Meaning they don't know. There is some information on the outcome of hunts by specialists. Goodrich followed male tigers interested in bears. All bears hunted were killed with a bite to the skull, but their killers had a hundred pounds on them. According to Baikov, tigers are able to kill bears of almost up to their own size. Recent observations confirm that some male tigers attack adult female brown bears of near-similar size. Not every attack went smoothly. In two cases, there was a prolonged fight in which the tiger was wounded. Anything known about disputes near kill-sites? Yes. Tigers win most fights (about 2:1), but details about gender, age and condition often are lacking. It's likely that adult bears were involved, because adult tigers have been killed. And what about large male bears following and robbing tigers? I recently posted info about a very large male bear following a tigress with cubs. Tigress 'Rachel' protested and survived, but other tigresses with cubs did not. Russian biologists say that at least 12 tigers have been killed. Based on what I have, they seem a bit too careful. Adult males clash at times (I know of 4 male tigers killed by male brown bears and 4 male bears killed by male tigers). Most victims were young adults (tigers) or emaciated Schatuns (bears). This is what one would expect. Healthy adult males seem to avoid serious problems. Returning to the title of this paragraph. I'll do it form the top down (referring to your post). a - It was known that tigers win most fights, but details needed to get to conclusions are lacking. It could be that most bears killed were younger and smaller than their opponents. I don't think it's likely (adult tigers perished in these fights as well), but we have no other option but to be careful. b - In spite of the info you presented, it isn't possible to jump from percentages to predictions on the outcome of bouts between adult males. Before the STP started, Russian biologists gave it a try. They concluded that tigers dominate the divisions up to 200 kg., whereas bears dominate the heavyweight division. Adult male bears are more robust and have extra layers of muscle and fat in the regions that matter. If we add the weight advantage (about 160 pounds at the level of averages), I'd say they have a point. c - Using -a- and -b-, one could conclude that tigers have an advantage in the similar-size division (weight) and be close. Based on the observation of Kretschmar that there isn't much to choose between an average adult male brown bear and an average adult male tiger, one could add that bears need about 160 pounds extra to get to equal terms (adult males), but that's an assumption only. Bears show more individual variation than tigers. Some male brown bears are well over 800 pounds. It's very likely that bears of that size dominate most disputes with most male tigers. d - The bear and the tiger in the museum. The photograph was first posted by Grahh (Shaggy God Forum). Sysoev had a say in it. He saw at least 4 fights between brown bears and tigers. One was a draw, one was won by a tiger and two were won by bears. Sysoev wrote a short story about a fight between male tiger and a male brown bear ('Amba'). Find it. What I'm saying is the picture is misleading. e - Vaillant wrote " ... An Amur tiger's sense of superiority and dominance over his realm is absolute: because of his position in the forest hierarchy, the only force a male will typically submit to is a stronger tiger or, occasionally, a large brown bear. Nothing else ranks in the taiga ... " (pp . 139-140). It is about 'occasionally, a large brown bear'. TO CONCLUDE As you know, I'm interested in tigers and bears. The only region where they co-exist is the Russian Far East. It's a very large, thickly forested, thinly populated and wild region where north and south meet. Fascinating place. In order to find out a bit more about the animals I'm interested in, I read what was available. I also joined a forum. All in all, it paid. The problem is animosity between posters guided by fixed ideas (fundamentalists). There's nothing wrong with preference, but you have to learn how to use it in a productive way. Unfortunately, most posters struggle in that department. In the end, it is about an accurate picture of reality. In order to get there, posters need to stick to the facts. Hence the decision to focus on good information over here. Posting on a forum isn't easy. My advice is to approach your hobby as a study. Read what is available, record what you find and keep a list of references. Try to stay away from preference and animosity and focus on good information. When posters or mods talk to you, take it serious. When you join a community, stick to the rules of engagement. Respect other posters and try to solve problems yourself. Check the sources of the information you use. A forum never is a reliable source, but a good one offers those interested a lot of links to good information. The rest is up to you. It's a fact you ignored a number of rules. The result was animosity and misinformation. We didn't start this forum to go to war, but to learn. I don't want to waste my time solving problems all the time. Stay away from this thread for two weeks. Join another forum to learn. When you return, stick to facts and stay away from demands and things like that. Good luck. |
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