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Personal Opinion & Speculations
Personal Opinion & Speculations
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Personal Opinion & Speculations
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@Pantherinae :
I don't want to take part in this discussion by giving the name of the "lucky winner" felid. But: 1) By arguing in accordance with the "Pound for pound" concept, the more smaller an animal is, the more stronger he is... It's a fact that the most powerful animal on Earth are the insects. No one mammal can accomplish "Pound for pound" what a lone ant (I could consider an infinite number of other insects) would be able to do. And that by very far. Thus, within the same animals family we consider here i.e. the big cats, the pantherinae, the most "pound for pound" powerful cat would be the leopard. Logically, being the smallest big cat... Why not ? Because being not an apex predator it makes such feats we don't never see among the other big cats (climbing onto a tree with a big prey only held in its mouth). Logically, but I don't want to go further in this argumentation. 2) Therefore, only one comparaison would be fair: to consider two animals at equal weight. Among the big cats, tiger, lion, jaguar and leopard only the first two have an equivalent weight at first sight, the tiger and the lion. And we risk a "tiger vs lion" debate... These both animals are differently agenced according to the environment in which they live. Each of the two are apex predator, the tiger individually is the most amazing, the most fascinating but the lions have other assets from their social way of live. Then... 
Would love to have some reliable sources for backup.. specially scientific data.. In that respect Jaguar has upper hand, in my opinion
 (06-11-2018, 11:41 AM)Spalea Wrote: @Pantherinae :Well we must Consider the square-cube laws when talking about insects, like an ant the side of a man is actually physically weaker than the human. But the hercules beetle is insanely strong capable of lifting 800 times it’s own weight! The same can be said for the cats, although a much smaller scale. The leopard has insane abilities and strengths, but needs extreme acceleration and manuverble limbs for climbing so I would personally think the leopard would be the weakest, then it’s much harder to pick the next cat it’s between the Lion and Jaguar jaguars are more compact, but the Lion is very muscular especially in the upper body. So that is almost impossible to decide. Then I would put the tiger at top. I think we can discuss this as adults. and this is not a fight discussion it’s a strength at equal size discussion. It’s all very close, although I think the biggest cat is also the strongest, there has still been well documented cases where Lions have beaten tigers in staged fights. So the vs debate is silly imo.
@Pantherinae :
About #4 : I remember you to have written at #293 inside the "Big cats interactions - Interspecific conflicts" topic : "Trust me the leopard is a much bigger personal favorite of mine than the spotted hyena (I even prefer the striped hyena). But I've learned to look at it more fair over the years and started to appreciate things for how they are. I could be a fanatic myself, but let's face it sometimes you are dead wrong. I was certain that a lone lion would beat a tiger (basically because I wanted too), but now I think it's more a 50/50 and if I had to give an edge I would for sure give it to the tiger, I was also sure a leopard would smash a hyena, my whole school book was covered with drawings of leopards killing hyenas, but again now I lean towards 50/50 and I actually believe I would slightly favor a big hyena over a big leopard if I had too." I have the same problem as you about the male lion: it's my favorite animal and this by far. But inside the wildfact forum I truly learnt that the male tiger is able to kill an adult wild gaur, and by seeing the numerous photo of tiger here published I noticed that the tiger enjoy the most impressive forelimbs (astonishing when we see them walking front view to wards us). As you say I started to be a more fair over the years... The biggest tigers being the biggest felines are the most powerful. 
Whenever I have thought of this question in the past my answer has always been the jaguar. Simply the sheer build of the animal with a powerful structure, strong forelimbs, a bone crushing bite, these cats are able to take out caiman which is no easy feat. However my one qualm with jaguars which is of course down to no fault of their own is prey size/difficulty. I have never heard a case of jaguar predation which has really wowed me in terms of difficulty of the kill. Now we can all theorise whether one would be able to take out a zebra for example but nothing concrete will come from it and there are too many variables (ambush style, surrounding vegetation, ect) to simply put it down to the size of the animal. Now following the same line of thought cats such as the leopard and tiger do have cases of predation that wow me, we all know some of the astonishing hunting feats leopards have achieved from eland all the way to gorilla, and the way they hoist kills into trees is beyond insane. However more recent cases of tigers killing juvenile and adult rhinos for me is the most impressive if we're thinking size ratio wise and difficulty of the kill/aggressiveness of the prey item. A cat that can overpower a rhino is pound for pound probably the strongest. I think it's hard to add lions to this comparison given their hunting accomplishments are usually done in a group, so for me they are exempt even though the figurehead is usually the male.
Great thread btw! Interested to see others' input.
@Sully I agree with most of what you say, but lions have been able to single handedly kill adult cape buffalo, and there is a video of a Lion finishing of a large juvenile rhino by eating it alive, it’s said that the Lion broke it’s back when jumping on it. So lions besides tigers does kill the most impressive prey species alone. And I highly doubt a leopard could kill an adult Eland, I’ve seen them throw of two lionesses like nothing can’t see a lone leopard kill something like that tbh. But I’m interested to know how strong a jaguar is, I suspect them to be extremely powerful!
Here an account of a leopard killing an eland, I didn't think it was possible either!
*This image is copyright of its original author https://books.google.com.au/books?dq=leo...&q&f=false 
If a Bengal tiger is to be introduced in Africa, then it will take time for him/her to adjust to the environment or climate around them. If it comes in contact with a small lion pride, then it will fight till his last breath. It will fight very ferociously. But it will be defeated as a small lion pride contains 1 to 2 male lions and 3 to 4 lionesses. All these pride members will be seriously injured. 1 or 2 will be dead most certainly. But I have a doubt if one male lion of pride is killed the other lions will retreat or fight till their death is interesting aspect. If they retreat then tiger wins. If male lion is roaming alone with some work like scent marking territory then he will be killed. Killing 3 to 4 lionesses later will also be extremely difficult for the male tiger but probably will find a way at last. It will learn many lessons here. Next time he will avoid such pride. But if it is a big pride then it will be easily killed. It will live secretive life or prefer to live such life. It will surely climb trees. Then he will face one by one individual lions. Or there is a possibility that while separating from mother brothers will unite and try to hunt together. Even tigresses can do the same. They will sire many cubs for exerting their dominance. They will mostly live in such groups. They will easily kill cape buffalos as they kill gaurs easily in the Indian subcontinent. Even tigresses will try to hunt cape buffalo but won’t be as successful I think so. They may prefer bigger species of deer. But if the tiger were to be in confrontation with hyenas what will happen? We see in documentaries of ngc a male lion will kill one hyena then other hyenas retreat. The same may happen with tigers too. It may kill one or two hyenas other hyenas run away. If a tigress faces hyenas, then it will also kill one or two if not it may retreat into a tree. If it has cubs, it will surely fight ferociously till death and will leave hyenas running away thus saving cubs.
I strongly believe that tiger is the strongest big cat at least pound for pound and even cat too. There are recorded instances of them killing rhino and elephants too though rare. I think they are stronger than jaguar too on pound for pound basis.
I felt it would be interesting to share one or more opinions that you have that might not be shared with fellow members, that in a thread where one must respect each others opinion and you can share what ever you want.
I’ll start. A lone wolf is not a very formidable carnivore, I have heard lone wolves killing bisons, but those must have been injuried or sick, wolves have been documented to have massive respect even fear for the Eurasian Lynx which in males only weigh 20-30kg. https://www.google.no/amp/s/sidorovich.blog/2017/09/06/wolves-and-lynxes/amp/  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Don’t get me wrong the wolf is a formiddable animal, but alone they aren’t at the same level of strength as an equally big bear, cat or hyena. I can’t wait to hear yours guys! /)
@Pantherinae :
Agree with you, but we have to admit that the main wolves's asset is their high sociability degree, "all for one and all for one" ! Individually they aren't as formidable as that, as you said. During the fight as natural offensive weapon, they only have a powerful jaw at their disposal. But as concerns the group, the prides of predators, they are the top one: high collective intelligence and extreme stamina. (01-26-2019, 03:49 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Pantherinae :100%, but hyenas have the same problem that they only have their jaws, but they are stronger than a wolf at the same weight imo. There is many that belives a wolf could compeate with a Hyena one on one which imo is ludicrous. That is why I say, I feel they are overrated. Still a formidable animal, but it is in packs they are one of the most dangerous animal. Spalea, do you have an opinion that you feel is a little unpopular? I would love to hear if you have one :) 
Just for the record, on a nature documentary, a lone wolf was caught on camera killing an adult bison. I watched this myself. The bison did not appear to be sick or injured, but of course it might have been.
I will edit and add: I remember reading somewhere rather recently that in Pleistocene Europe, hyenas outnumbered and out competed the grey wolf. But my thoughts are, why did the hyena become extinct in Europe? (01-26-2019, 05:23 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Just for the record, on a nature documentary, a lone wolf was caught on camera killing an adult bison. I watched this myself. The bison did not appear to be sick or injured, but of course it might have been.The hyenas I guess depended on open plains and the large prey that lived there, but when humans killed the large prey and the open plains disappared so did the hyenas, cave bears and cave lions. I think wolves are better pack hunters than hyenas and are a better unit just as it is with wild dogs. As hyenas although often has larger clans, they often venture alone in pairs or smaller groupes. While canids are very often together. (01-26-2019, 04:15 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:(01-26-2019, 03:49 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Pantherinae :100%, but hyenas have the same problem that they only have their jaws, but they are stronger than a wolf at the same weight imo. There is many that belives a wolf could compeate with a Hyena one on one which imo is ludicrous. That is why I say, I feel they are overrated. Still a formidable animal, but it is in packs they are one of the most dangerous animal. I spoke about canids, not hyaenidae. The spotted hyenas are scavenger i.e. animals which is more used than Wolf to direct confrontations with other powerful predators. And also because they are scavenger they have an extremely strong neck (to dismember a big corpse and to extract the viscera). Thus the morphology isn't the same. The wolves are pure predator, not at all scavengers like the hyenas. Of course they are able to defend a prey's corpse but they don't insist if their opponents is much more powerful (a grizzly bear for example), in this case they would prefer to flee from it. On the other hand the main spotted hyena's morphology fault is that it doesn't allow it to twirl around itself when aggressed: you see the numerous cases in which we can see some jackal biting it in the hindquarters or in the rump ? These jackals wouldn't do that with a wolf. An opinion about animals I would think unpopular ? Hmm let me think about it ! |
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