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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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A lot to digest regarding the skull but one note about extrapolating skull length from the mandible length in a 2D photo. The mandible sits closer to the camera than the extreme ends of the skulls. Thus, the mandible falsely appears to take more of the skull length in the photo, an illusion of sorts. Thus, when extrapolating skull length from the mandible length off a photo, the skull length will always be underestimated.
 (05-01-2018, 12:51 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Ministry of Agriculture of Kazahstan officialy announces project to reintroduce tigers in 2025 in the delta of Ili river, former range of extinct Caspian tiger. The plan is firstly to introduce 5 Amur tigers - 2 males and 3 females, but before that has to be revived the prey base and the wild ecosystem in the aria: I hope this would be better than when Russia lend tigers to Iran to reintroduce. (05-01-2018, 01:36 AM)tigerluver Wrote: A lot to digest regarding the skull but one note about extrapolating skull length from the mandible length in a 2D photo. The mandible sits closer to the camera than the extreme ends of the skulls. Thus, the mandible falsely appears to take more of the skull length in the photo, an illusion of sorts. Thus, when extrapolating skull length from the mandible length off a photo, the skull length will always be underestimated.You are right. I realized that I made some mistakes. I think the CBL335mm is the actual measured data because the distance between the mandible and the skull is not equal, which can explain the error when measuring with a scale.
I will write more when I have a time. The loss of the Siberian tiger's size is simple: Low number of prey animal in their habitat. I don't know if it is necessary to keep talking the same topic.
I spoke with one conservationist in Bangladesh. He thinks male tigers in Sunderban are big as male tigers in mainland India and Nepal. The size records of the Sunderban tigers are all sick and old tigers. He said it is very difficult to capture alive and measure healthy tigers due to harsh environment.
 (05-08-2018, 08:50 AM)Greatearth Wrote: I spoke with one conservationists in Bangladesh. He thinks male tigers in Sunderban are big as male tiger in mainland India and Nepal. The size records of the Sunderban tigers are all sick and old tigers. He said it very difficult to capture alive and measure healthy tigers due to harsh environments. LOL. No! The smallest recorded weights for Bengal tigers are from Sundarban (Bangladesh & India). Because Bangladesh doesn't have tigers left anywhere other than Sundarbans, they're as insecure with the Sundarban's tigers' size as they are proud of its alleged ferocity! (I'm Bengali, we share the language & interact a lot on social media) Researchers are people too... Nobody likes to say "Our tigers are smallest in the world". Has he even seen Central Indian or Terai tigers, let alone measured? Even severely sick & dying mainland specimens have almost never been weighed as low as 150 kilos (males). Sundarban males can drop below 100kg in bad condition. Check this out #115. I asked around when i went to Sundarbans last December & 150kg is considered a pretty big tiger! Here's the official figures (I trust it because they took the effort of sticking a strip with new data. Original one had 200-250 kg on it):  *This image is copyright of its original author Only thing he's right about is that they're not as small as they're said to be. Healthy females are about 100kg (from documentary).
Rishi
Yes, I thought so. I will write more when I have a time. I don't really think Sunderban tiger could grow big as mainland Indian tiger(southern, eastern, northern, northeast, northwest), terai tiger, and assan tiger. I believe assam tiger is highly overrated about their size and power, but I do agree tiger in Assam is one of the largest tiger group in India. My opinion is Central Indian tiger, Assam tiger, Terai tiger, and northern Indian tiger were pretty much the same size besides Assam and Terai could find more numbers of large male tigers (I am referring when tigers and other animals were all over the Asia 100 years ago). I would say dry forest and desert western Indian tiger and southern Indian tiger were the next largest. Then I would say swamp tiger in Sunderban and Simlipal. If anyone knows I am wrong and, then please correct me Interesting thing is the size difference between Assam tiger and Sunderban tiger even though they are just neighbors. I am not sure of tiger lived in between these two area. If Assam was covered with dense mangrove forest or rainforest and Sunderban was open area, then size of these 2 tigers may have been opposite. One question is how come some male tiger looks so small when he died? This is dead B2 due to infighting with Bamera. He looks so small unlike when he was alive.  *This image is copyright of its original author
(05-08-2018, 10:01 AM)Greatearth Wrote: I believe assam tiger is highly overrated about their size and power, but I do agree tiger in Assam are one of the largest tiger group in India. My opinion is Central Indian tiger, Assam tiger, Terai tiger, and northern Indian tiger were pretty much the same size besides Assam and Terai could find more larger male tigers. I would say dry forest and desert western Indian tiger and southern Indian tiger were the next largest. Then I would say swamp tiger in Sunderban and Simlipal. If anyone knows I am wrong and, then please corrected me We don't have enough data to make any of such declarations. Quote:One question is how come some male tiger looks so small when he died? This is dead B2 due to infighting with Bamera. He looks so small unlike when he was alive. The camera angle is playing a role but... His admirers tend to get worked up when someone says this, but he's always been stout & never too large. This is a Ranthambore tigress!  *This image is copyright of its original author Bajirao looked that size compared to people when he died.
Rishi
Yes, he said he always go visit Corbett, Tadoba, and other national parks to see tigers. He is definitely sure male tigers in Sundarbans could grow the same size as male tigers in mainland India. Not just him, I've seen many photographers from Bangladesh are arguing against Indians from other states over Sundarbans tiger's size. I do know camera angle things, but B2 looks so small. That is size of large male leopard. There is no way male Bengal tiger like B2 could be that small. (05-09-2018, 08:29 AM)Greatearth Wrote: Rishi That's the catch! I felt similarly when i saw the male tiger at Jharkhali TRC. It was nearly the size of an average sized mainlanders. (Forgot to ask if they had its weight  )I couldn't come up with any explanation for them being 60% in weight compared to ones rescued/captured on mainland... They're not equal, definitely smaller & skinnier, but not that much! The old cages of Kolkata Zoo allowed close comparison.
I'm quoting myself from Sundarban Mini-trip: (01-02-2018, 12:07 AM)Rishi Wrote: Currently there's only one tiger there. A 11-year-old male, who other than being a man-eater had eye injury than turned it blind & wasn't released. So i would refrain from commenting on it. I really don't know why, probably nobody does for sure! You should get him on Wildfact... @sanjay Can this conversation from post #1,595 be copied (not moved) to The Sunderban Tiger thread as well? I've never seen a "Copy Posts" option. 
SUNDERBAN TIGERS
What I have on greatest total skull length, skull width, body mass and total length strongly suggests that Sunderban tigers are smaller than a typical representative of Panthera tigris tigris. The videos posted suggest they're not as robust. Same for large individuals. However. The difference could be a bit less outspoken than we assume, as the number of measurements is limited. We also have to remember that quite a few of the tigers weighed and measured operated in the 'problem' department. In the Russian Far East, the difference between 'problem animals' and others was pronounced. A century ago or so, tigers could move freely between Bengal and the Sunderbans. Exchange of genes, that is. Today, that's all but impossible. We know that isolation often quickly results in a smaller and more uniform size and so far we've not been disappointed. Some time ago, I read this book:  *This image is copyright of its original author It was published in 1981, when the writer had retired. The photograph below is from the book. One of the three heads in the photograph is from a tiger shot in the Sunderbans. The writer is sitting on the right:  *This image is copyright of its original author The tigers in the photograph below were shot over a century ago. They're not small, but lack robustness:  *This image is copyright of its original author Here's a scan of a letter published in the JBJHS. It's about a male tiger shot in December 1934 in the Sunderbans. He had a short, but heavy barrel-shaped body and was described as 'typical' for the region:  *This image is copyright of its original author I don't doubt that some adult males can reach 350 pounds or a bit over today, but individuals well exceeding that mark most probably are few and far between. Population size has an effect on average size and individual variation, but isolation in particular is a killer. We also have to remember that the conditions in the Sunderbans (a lot of water, regular floods, few large prey animals, quite a few 'problem animals' and a lot of poachers, especially in Bangla Desh) are unfavourable. Tigers of this size have never been seen in the Sunderbans:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
Rishi
I am not sure what he do, but I know he goes to national parks to see wild tigers including elusive Sundarban tigers. He said he as not found any size differences between mainland India and Sundarban after seeing many tigers. He probably never measured any tiger. He would be very angry if he sees these discussion that we are concluding Sundarban tigers are smaller than other Bengal tigers. peter Thanks for information! I hope wildfact talks more about other tiger subspecies and Bengal tiger from Himalaya, Sundarban, and other area along with other big cats like leopard, cheetah, snow leopard, and clouded leopard. I do agree Sundrban tiger is smaller than other Bengal tigers. How about their size in early 1900? Many large animals like Javan rhino and water buffalo used to live in Sundarban, and they are gone (Not sure of Asiatic elephant and Gaur lived there). I guess the Bengal tiger in Sundarban was bigger in early 20th century? They are indeed skinny today compared to tigers in India and Nepal. I guess this is due to low number of large mammal or something. I still think Sundarban tiger was smaller than Bengal tigers from other areas even when there were many large mammals lived in Sundarban. I remember you wrote the Indochinese tiger lived in Mekong delta in cochinchina was smaller than other Indochinese tigers (I am not sure how much similar between Sundarban and Mekong delta). I clearly remember someone wrote the Sumatran tiger from lowland swamp area was smaller than other Sumatran tigers. This is the same for other large mammals like African elephant and rhino. African forest elephant is smaller than African savanna elephant. Rhino genus like White rhino, Black rhino, and Indian rhino are bigger than Javan rhino and Sumatran rhino. Large mammals are probably showing decreasing size when they are living in dense jungle, so they could able to move through dense forest. I think this is another reason of why black tiger (Simlipal and Sundarban), black leopard (forest in India, Indochina, and Java island), and black jaguar (Amazon) are discovering from dense forest areas. Black color means it is easier to hide themselves from their prey. One question is that I have never heard of black tiger in Indochina to Indonesian islands.  *This image is copyright of its original author Who is this tiger? He is huge. Where he is living? I know there is camera trick, but this tiger looks bigger than Jai. How come powerful tiger like B2 looked so small when he died comparing to this male tiger? 
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He was BMW and Baghinnala female's last litter from Pench, he weighed 225kg there and was still a youngster.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Roheet Karoo "Male tiger found dead in Deolapar range of nagpur territorial division. It was later identified as a dispersed cub from Baghin nala female of Pench Mp last litter." In regards to Sundarban Tigers compared to Mainland Tigers From what I've seen from many images, Sundarban Tigers do not stack up to their Central Cousins, I know a few who have seen them say they are large but I haven't seen any say they are as large as C. Indian Tigers they've seen in Comparison. If you look at the images below and some others that have been posted, you can see they lack the dense muscular build, large skull and longer bodies. It's likely to what has already been pointed out, Lack of large prey, habitat, fresh water and dense marshy terrain all don't lend themselves to a big cat, especially one such as a Tiger which can run the gamut in size. Avijan Saha Images Are you talk about the size.......... Some people says that Tiger of Sundarban are smaller than the causin of Bandhavgar. Then talk about this. My first tiger sighting in the wild. But unfortunately Rain couldn't gave me an enough light. This huge male came out from the dense and walk down to the mudflat for his meal.  *This image is copyright of its original author Souvik Sardar THE MANGROVE BEAST This day will always be remembered by all of us who accompanied this trip. A lucky trip for an unlucky guy like me,my first visit to sunderbans. It was 6.55 in the early morning, we were trying to locate a ruddy kf when suddenly our guide shouted ' tiger...tiger out there'. All of us rushed to the back side of the launch trying to track the illusive beast of sunderbans when ultimately it showed himself--- a huge adult male tiger. Practically my hands were trembling with excitement after getting a glimpse of this big cat. We cudnt believe ourselves. Lack of prey, drinking water,poaching,rising water level due to global warming, human interference are some of the dreadful threats to their survival nowadays.  *This image is copyright of its original author Riddhi Mukherjee  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Lastly is this "How come powerful tiger like B2 looked so small when he died comparing to this male tiger?" Camera angles are tricky from time to time as well as the condition of the cat at the time of death. Here is the actual Video of B2, you can see his body is in complete rigor mortis which already makes him look thin, his spine and neck are curved which decreases his length on top of being injured and most likely starving to death due to infighting. But if you watch @ 1:24 you can see that he is a large cat. Bandhavgarh has great genes pumping through it, there cats are one of the larger ones in C. India, and while all cats run a wide variety of size, I doubt a Tiger like B2 was anything less than a 200kg Tiger. When you see a large male Tiger, there is nothing small about it. There is no confusing them for Leopards or any other cat, they like lions are massive, even females are very large. Even small females like Choti Tara who I saw from a few feet away looked like a gigantic dog and she only weighed 85kg or so I believe. (05-10-2018, 03:12 AM)Greatearth Wrote: Rishi As i told you before, i've felt the same. But "the feels" aren't a valid way of measuring (unless you're adding tea-leaves to water)! Those videos i posted aren't mine... But i've stood there. Classes were cancelled one day & i went there from college. I had my instruments with me & i measured the loops of the chain link they use. One of the Royal Bengals, i don't know which one, were pacing along like in the video & i checked upto where is spine was reaching. From that makeshift scale, i calculated his spine height to be ~97cm, which is ok-ish. Watch this video till the end... He looks like a regular Sundarban male from camera-trap images. BTW, noone's concluding anything. We're just discussing the available data! That's why i asked you to invite him here.
The South China Tiger exhibited in Beijing Zoo.
 *This image is copyright of its original author
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