The Charleston Males and Their Male Lineage

[Leroy]

(04-17-2018, 03:52 PM)Tshokwane Wrote:

(04-17-2018, 03:36 PM)Leroy Wrote: Is there any chance of them coming back to sabi 

They seem to have liked the Kruger and the new land and pride too much, they barely have returned to look for the Southern pride.

Quote:and do they have any cubs or older sons/daughters left? 

Yes, the ones they sired with the Southern pride. They must be 1 1/2 close to 2 years old, I think.

Did they just leave because of pressure from rivals like mantins or just...because? I take it no new coalition has exerted dominance over the southern pride and Charleston sub adults haven't been killed?

This year is going to be interesting. It's like the great powers competing over Syria. Eventually sabi will be carved up with the majingilane deaths. Going to be interesting to see what happens at lion sands and kirkman Reply

[Tshokwane]

(04-20-2018, 10:45 AM)Leroy Wrote: Did they just leave because of pressure from rivals like mantins  

Not at all, the only males they came up against were very young males like the 3 Talamati males or the 3 Mangheni males, both of whom were not even 5 years old at that time, and the Charleston males had no problem chasing them off, it was easy.

The reason they went off somewhere is because the Southern pride females were either all nursing cubs, so they went off to find new females. A comparison to this can be what the Majingilane did in their early days, think 2011-12, were they switched their attention from the Fourways and Styx prides, that were the first they controlled and sired cubs with(2010 and 2011, respectively), to the Tsalala and Sparta prides.

The same can be said of the Notch males in the Mara.

So, in this case what the Charlestons did is something that seems to repeat itself in successful coalitions, where having a well defended, safe territory and prides that are already nursing young and won't get pregnant again, they simply go on looking for more females. Reply

[Leroy]

(04-20-2018, 05:04 PM)Tshokwane Wrote:

(04-20-2018, 10:45 AM)Leroy Wrote: Did they just leave because of pressure from rivals like mantins  

Not at all, the only males they came up against were very young males like the 3 Talamati males or the 3 Mangheni males, both of whom were not even 5 years old at that time, and the Charleston males had no problem chasing them off, it was easy.

The reason they went off somewhere is because the Southern pride females were either all nursing cubs, so they went off to find new females. A comparison to this can be what the Majingilane did in their early days, think 2011-12, were they switched their attention from the Fourways and Styx prides, that were the first they controlled and sired cubs with(2010 and 2011, respectively), to the Tsalala and Sparta prides.

The same can be said of the Notch males in the Mara.

So, in this case what the Charlestons did is something that seems to repeat itself in successful coalitions, where having a well defended, safe territory and prides that are already nursing young and won't get pregnant again, they simply go on looking for more females.

Charlestons were doing great for a while.  It's a shame we don't see them too much anymore.  Wouldn't them leaving mean their pride is now undefended? Males normally expel the youngsters, you are saying they left on their own accord due to lack of mating opportunities, but you then leave behind sub adults that won't be able to defend themselves against new males.  Who sired the 3 talmati males and the 3 mhangeni males?  majingilanes? Reply

[KGB_lion]

(04-23-2018, 03:04 PM)Leroy Wrote:

(04-20-2018, 05:04 PM)Tshokwane Wrote:

(04-20-2018, 10:45 AM)Leroy Wrote: Did they just leave because of pressure from rivals like mantins  

Not at all, the only males they came up against were very young males like the 3 Talamati males or the 3 Mangheni males, both of whom were not even 5 years old at that time, and the Charleston males had no problem chasing them off, it was easy.

The reason they went off somewhere is because the Southern pride females were either all nursing cubs, so they went off to find new females. A comparison to this can be what the Majingilane did in their early days, think 2011-12, were they switched their attention from the Fourways and Styx prides, that were the first they controlled and sired cubs with(2010 and 2011, respectively), to the Tsalala and Sparta prides.

The same can be said of the Notch males in the Mara.

So, in this case what the Charlestons did is something that seems to repeat itself in successful coalitions, where having a well defended, safe territory and prides that are already nursing young and won't get pregnant again, they simply go on looking for more females.

Charlestons were doing great for a while.  It's a shame we don't see them too much anymore.  Wouldn't them leaving mean their pride is now undefended? Males normally expel the youngsters, you are saying they left on their own accord due to lack of mating opportunities, but you then leave behind sub adults that won't be able to defend themselves against new males.  Who sired the 3 talmati males and the 3 mhangeni males?  majingilanes?

 Talamatis were sired by the Matimbas. Mhangenis by Majingilanes (the 6 Kambulas are their sisters) Reply

[Tshokwane]

(04-23-2018, 03:04 PM)Leroy Wrote: ales normally expel the youngsters, you are saying they left on their own accord due to lack of mating opportunities, but you then leave behind sub adults that won't be able to defend themselves against new males.

I think it's a sort of response to having the territory unthreatened. In their 2 1/2 years as dominant males they didn't have much, if any, competition for it, so for them leaving wouldn't be that much of a deal, if the territory is safe.

On the other hand, it is known that lions or other big cats such as tigers place a bit more importance in siring new cubs than actually securing those they've already sired.

So it could be any of this things, or maybe another I haven't considered, this si just my opinion. Reply

[Ngala]

Photo and information credits: Photowildsa
"An older image of one of Charleston male lions resting along the Sand River."

*This image is copyright of its original author

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[Fredymrt]

Charleston male lion

*This image is copyright of its original author

On Safari Time out in the Kruger National Park early morning with the Charleston Lion Brothers and The African Safari. This was about 3 months ago in between S65 and S4 I think it is... on the tar road. As I see the tooth hanging brother no more has that tooth and obviously has fallen off...Hope this
helps... Imave by African Safari Guru's Wildlife Safaris Reply

[T Rabbit]

The return of the charleston males.
    Reply

[Chris]

@Tshokwane so in sabi sands the dynamics will soon change now that they are back. And how would the southern pride react to them being back? Reply

[vinodkumarn]

(07-15-2018, 09:41 AM)Chris Wrote: @Tshokwane so in sabi sands the dynamics will soon change now that they are back. And how would the southern pride react to them being back?

They vanished back to Kruger Reply

[Tshokwane]

(07-15-2018, 09:41 AM)Chris Wrote: how would the southern pride react to them being back?

At first with some distance, they wouldn't be sure how the males would react, but then they would have accepted them back, I think.

(07-15-2018, 09:41 AM)Chris Wrote: so in sabi sands the dynamics will soon change now that they are back.

Not really, I don't think they're interested in their Sabi sabi territory anymore, and it shows on how little they stay in it even when they come back for a visit. Reply

[NCAT33]

It appears they came back only to investigate the roaring from the Avoca's Reply

[Tshokwane]

(07-15-2018, 04:58 PM)NCAT33 Wrote: It appears they came back only to investigate the roaring from the Avoca's

Yes, and maybe for the future they will take note of it and maybe not come back again unless it's a short visit as it was.

This was Kirkman's post a couple of days ago:

There was much excitement a few days ago @Kirkmans Kamp. After years away in their new territory in the Kruger Park, the Charleston males briefly returned. Their appearance created a bit of a stir amongst the other dominant males in the area, the Avocas. Although it was a short sighting of the Charleston males, it was definitely the highlight for that morning.

*This image is copyright of its original author

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[vinodkumarn]

Credits: Lions Sands Game Reserve

From early in the morning of 11 July, we could hear the roaring of lions. It’s an exciting sound, not only because it helps us to locate them but also, because we don’t have an established coalition here, it’s not something we hear all that often. Setting out on safari, updates started pouring in over the radio. Our easterly neighbours had heard the vocalizations coming from the south-west, while our neighbours to the south called in the audio to their north-east. With this information, we had a good idea of where to look and headed to the south-east corner of Lion Sands.

One of the guides called in two large, male lions. When I got there, I saw these were definitely not the Avoca males – the two lions we’ve regularly viewed on our reserve in the last few months. These were mighty lions – big, black-maned, and beautiful. Upon closer inspection, we noticed one was missing his lower-right canine – a dead giveaway as to his identity. Even though this was the first time I’d ever seen them, these were unmistakably the Charleston Males. The one male is infamous for an altercation with a giraffe (seen during a Lion Sands game drive), which left him with a hanging tooth that’s since fallen out.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Image by Neil Jennings

The lions were walking ‘with purpose.’ It wasn’t a run, but they certainly had a destination in mind and an agenda for when they got there. We followed them on their mission for quite a while. They weren’t interested in hunting either, not at all trying to conceal themselves as we passed several prey species, including some giraffe who kept a steady eye on them.

While we were with the Charlestons, the Avoca males had also been found on the reserve, not far from where we were. They were also roaring, which had drawn the attention of the Charlestons. Apparently, the Avocas had been separated from each other and were trying to reunite. However, this gave their position away to the Charlestons, who were on their way to investigate.

Later on in the morning, after we had left the lions, a few other guides reported that the Charlestons had confronted the Avocas, who are much younger and inferior in size and strength. The Charlestons chased the Avocas out of the territory, moving south into Lion Sands Kruger Park. On the afternoon game drive, the guides and guests there also got the chance to view the Charlestons. By then, they’d succeeded in chasing the Avocas out of Lion Sands altogether, and were resting. That evening, the guides followed them as they continued to wander south, until they eventually moved off our reserve.

Though it was a short visit, I am so happy that I got to see these lions. The last time they were seen on the reserve was August of last year. The Charleston males now hold a territory in the Kruger National Park, but that doesn’t stop them from laying claim to an area they once ruled. As the previous dominant males of Lion Sands and the bloodline of the remaining Southern Pride, they are legends around here. I hope it’s not another year until their next visit (although I’m sure the Avoca males would disagree). Reply

[PolicemanBob]

I’m new to this site and dont know much about lions, but who sired the Charleston males and the Avoca males? Thanks Reply