Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project

[Rishi]

(02-09-2017, 06:04 AM)Ba Ba Lou Wrote: Rishi,


That's your OPINION, you have no RELIABLE documented eyewitness accounts to back your opinion. Whereas I have RELIABLE documented eyewitness accounts including an account from a tiger EXPERT
Dr. Kalish Sankhala who says a male Bengal tiger is NO match for a male Asiatic lion.

A ~240kg animal is NO match for a ~180kg animal (considering decent sized specimens)!?

PS: That not what "opinion" means, I offered a scenario, U r free to point out its shortcomings..

Lone nomadic lions take on a pride all the time & oust a coalitions by catching the brothers alone.
It can go past females & kill cubs.

WOLVES & PUMAS, LEOPARDS & HYENAS LIVE SIDE-BY-SIDE & DOMINATES EACH OTHER DEPENDING ON VARYING SCENARIOS. Reply

[Wolverine]

(02-09-2017, 06:04 AM)Ba Ba Lou Wrote: Dr. Kalish Sankhala who says a male Bengal tiger is NO match for a male Asiatic lion.

The question is how come Dr. Sankhala may know this if tiger and lion doesn't live together since 200 years?

Only joined introduction in Kuno of both lions and tigers can give answer of this question. Reply

[Vinay]

Modern weights proves Bengal Tiger weights 221 Kg and Asiatic Lion 175 Kg. It is obvious that lion will lose but don't forget lions live in prides no way a lone tiger will mess with 2+ lions and defeats them.I think Tiger will stay/run away from Lions territories like Leopard run away from 20 kg Dhole (pack animal).


Lone Tiger/Leopard may bigger but they are no-match for Pride of Lions or Dholes. (VS Tiger and Leopard's respectively)

Injured Tiger or Leopard == Dead  Tiger or Leopard.

So,all predators respect their boundaries and live ever after happily in Indian jungle.It may possible after 20 years i guess.  Reply

[Tshokwane]

Now, let's tone this down, because I can see where this may lead.

Tigers and lions don't live together, and that should be the end of the little debate.

Stick with the subject, please. Reply

[Rishi]

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[Jimmy]

would be an absolute one of the best reserve in terms of tourism potential, but i see one prime concern and that is the area of this reserve which i feel would be small for both cats to thrive together in the long run. Another is the terrain. i dnt know how diverse is the Kuno's terrain but there should be ample forest and grassland patches preferably hilly terrain for seclusion, privacy etc. such that what will be a prime area for one species of cat would be a fringe area for the other, minimizing prolonged contact and stress between the two cats. Not that fight won't happen but that will be less devastating and more like a skirmish where a looser still can run away, rest and hunt in another area an sustain itself. The last one i feel will be the same prey species that will be targeted by both these cats and lack of any wild bovines-a really large prey choice that would have been perfect here, this will result in direct competition and a severe conflict. But the main hurdle i see is the small area of the reserve itself. Reply

[Rishi]

(02-14-2017, 01:15 PM)Jimmy Wrote: I don't know how diverse is the Kuno's terrain but there should be ample forest and grassland patches preferably hilly terrain for seclusion, privacy etc. such that what will be a prime area for one species of cat would be a fringe area for the other, minimizing prolonged contact and stress between the two cats. Not that fight won't happen but that will be less devastating and more like a skirmish where a looser still can run away, rest and hunt in another area an sustain itself. The last one i feel will be the same prey species that will be targeted by both these cats and lack of any wild bovines-a really large prey choice that would have been perfect here, this will result in direct competition and a severe conflict. But the main hurdle i see is the small area of the reserve itself.

Kuno's Terrain is actually more diverse than its neighbours..a more like  east-meets-west type of vegetation + the "India-special" human touch. The people may be gone now, but their memories linger...
(Dacoit caves of not-so-long-ago)

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

[/size]
The following is a scenery of Kailadevi Sanctuary that's a part of Ranthambore's buffer, directly connected to Kuno landscape.
I doubt that when the lions start expanding, whether such open valleys that can support dozen strong prides, will still br held on by the stripes or not...

*This image is copyright of its original author

---

Moving on to the MENU...

Kuno's preybase consists of typical western indian variety;

• CHITAL
• SAMBAR
• BLUEBULL
• BLACKBUCK
• BOARS
• BARKING DEER
• CHINKARA
• CHAUSINGHA
• FERAL CAMEL left behind by villagers.
• & last but not the least CATTLE.
  

.

---

Finally its size..

Kuno it self was some 350sq.km. but the new reserve made up by combining it to Palpur sanctuary is 900sq.kms...then there is the buffer.

These are a part of a HUGE forest tract of a whopping 5000 SQ.KMS, joined with Rsnthambore landscape to the west & the now-empty Madhav National Park to Southeast.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Experts said its perfect & lion-ready.. Gujarat's legal procrastinations are soon to see an expiry of ammunition. Reply

[Garfield]

Whoa wat up with dis, u saying they movin the lions to a new turf, in the center India, that is straight up dope, true dat with that.  I wonder if they run into any tiger bros strollen around, that would be som mad showdowns. Reply

[SuSpicious]

(05-08-2017, 04:20 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(02-14-2017, 01:15 PM)Jimmy Wrote: I don't know how diverse is the Kuno's terrain but there should be ample forest and grassland patches preferably hilly terrain for seclusion, privacy etc. such that what will be a prime area for one species of cat would be a fringe area for the other, minimizing prolonged contact and stress between the two cats. Not that fight won't happen but that will be less devastating and more like a skirmish where a looser still can run away, rest and hunt in another area an sustain itself. The last one i feel will be the same prey species that will be targeted by both these cats and lack of any wild bovines-a really large prey choice that would have been perfect here, this will result in direct competition and a severe conflict. But the main hurdle i see is the small area of the reserve itself.

Kuno's Terrain is actually more diverse than its neighbours..a more like  east-meets-west type of vegetation + the "India-special" human touch. The people may be gone now, but their memories linger...
(Dacoit caves of not-so-long-ago)

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

The following is a scenery of Kailadevi Sanctuary that's a part of Ranthambore's buffer, directly connected to Kuno landscape.
I bet when the lions start expanding, such open valleys that can support dozen strong prides, are gonna be the areas that the stripes probably won't be able to hold...

*This image is copyright of its original author

Moving on to the MENU...
Kuno's preybase consists of typical western indian variety..

• CHITAL
• SAMBAR
• BLUEBULL
• BLACKBUCK
• BOARS
• BARKING DEER
• CHINKARA
• CHAUSINGHA
• FERAL CAMEL left behind by villagers.
• & last but not the least CATTLE.
  

.
.
.
.
Finally its size..

Kuno it self was some 350sq.km. but the new reserve made up by combining it to Palpur sanctuary is 900sq.kms...then there is the buffer.

These are a part of a HUGE forest tract of whopping 5000 SQ.KMS, joined with Rsnthambore landscape to the west & the now-empty Madhav National Park to Southeast.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Experts said its perfect & lion-ready.. Gujarat's legal procrastinations are soon to see an expiry of ammunition.

We all know what happened to Broken Tail (Machli's son from her first litter). He ventured far away in the human vegetation and died when a train ran over him. My point is Tigers were travelling then and they are gonna travel now. Now there is more pressure on ranthambore since tigers are more and area is less. Same will happen with lions. they too will travel once Kuno is full with lions.

I went to Ranthambore in march and everyone there told me that even Sultan or T 72 resides in Kailadevi Sanctuary. If he is there soon many others will follow. and Sultan is no pushover. My point here is Lions only won't have transient or weak tigers to face. They will need to tackle some prime one's like Sultan if they ever are relocated to Kuno. The clashes could be more brutal than we imagine and no matter who wins or loses we will loose our big cats anyways. So I actually don't think Kuno is a good choice for lions at all. Reply

[Garfield]

(05-09-2017, 09:53 AM)$uSpiciou$ Wrote:

(05-08-2017, 04:20 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(02-14-2017, 01:15 PM)Jimmy Wrote: I don't know how diverse is the Kuno's terrain but there should be ample forest and grassland patches preferably hilly terrain for seclusion, privacy etc. such that what will be a prime area for one species of cat would be a fringe area for the other, minimizing prolonged contact and stress between the two cats. Not that fight won't happen but that will be less devastating and more like a skirmish where a looser still can run away, rest and hunt in another area an sustain itself. The last one i feel will be the same prey species that will be targeted by both these cats and lack of any wild bovines-a really large prey choice that would have been perfect here, this will result in direct competition and a severe conflict. But the main hurdle i see is the small area of the reserve itself.

Kuno's Terrain is actually more diverse than its neighbours..a more like  east-meets-west type of vegetation + the "India-special" human touch. The people may be gone now, but their memories linger...
(Dacoit caves of not-so-long-ago)

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

The following is a scenery of Kailadevi Sanctuary that's a part of Ranthambore's buffer, directly connected to Kuno landscape.
I bet when the lions start expanding, such open valleys that can support dozen strong prides, are gonna be the areas that the stripes probably won't be able to hold...

*This image is copyright of its original author

Moving on to the MENU...
Kuno's preybase consists of typical western indian variety..

• CHITAL
• SAMBAR
• BLUEBULL
• BLACKBUCK
• BOARS
• BARKING DEER
• CHINKARA
• CHAUSINGHA
• FERAL CAMEL left behind by villagers.
• & last but not the least CATTLE.
  

.
.
.
.
Finally its size..

Kuno it self was some 350sq.km. but the new reserve made up by combining it to Palpur sanctuary is 900sq.kms...then there is the buffer.

These are a part of a HUGE forest tract of whopping 5000 SQ.KMS, joined with Rsnthambore landscape to the west & the now-empty Madhav National Park to Southeast.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Experts said its perfect & lion-ready.. Gujarat's legal procrastinations are soon to see an expiry of ammunition.

We all know what happened to Broken Tail (Machli's son from her first litter). He ventured far away in the human vegetation and died when a train ran over him. My point is Tigers were travelling then and they are gonna travel now. Now there is more pressure on ranthambore since tigers are more and area is less. Same will happen with lions. they too will travel once Kuno is full with lions.

I went to Ranthambore in march and everyone there told me that even Sultan or T 72 resides in Kailadevi Sanctuary. If he is there soon many others will follow. and Sultan is no pushover. My point here is Lions only won't have transient or weak tigers to face. They will need to tackle some prime one's like Sultan if they ever are relocated to Kuno. The clashes could be more brutal than we imagine and no matter who wins or loses we will loose our big cats anyways. So I actually don't think Kuno is a good choice for lions at all.

Yah but bro, if the tiggers sense some threat comin, they mite hall tale outa there, so in the end no one mite get hurt, cuz tigers don't like to mix it up unless they havdo.  Ether way both these cats are supreme dudes and both hold theyre right to compete foda crown, an mayda best cat win.  Itsa a honor in the wildkingdom and the makins of a battle as old as time an legends.  Let tha games begin bro, I'm up fo it, let nature be nature these cats lived side by side centuries ago, only natural they do again.  Life will work itself out, both these bros are neighbors not strangers, dats wat ppl don't know. Reply

[Rishi]

(05-09-2017, 09:53 AM)$uSpiciou$ Wrote:

(05-08-2017, 04:20 PM)Rishi Wrote: The following is a scenery of Kailadevi Sanctuary that's a part of Ranthambore's buffer, directly connected to Kuno landscape.
I bet when the lions start expanding, such open valleys that can support dozen strong prides, are gonna be the areas that the stripes probably won't be able to hold...

*This image is copyright of its original author

Experts said its perfect & lion-ready.. 

We all know what happened to Broken Tail (Machli's son from her first litter). He ventured far away in the human vegetation and died when a train ran over him. My point is Tigers were travelling then and they are gonna travel now. Now there is more pressure on ranthambore since tigers are more and area is less. Same will happen with lions. they too will travel once Kuno is full with lions.

I went to Ranthambore in march and everyone there told me that even Sultan or T 72 resides in Kailadevi Sanctuary. If he is there soon many others will follow. and Sultan is no pushover. My point here is Lions only won't have transient or weak tigers to face. They will need to tackle some prime one's like Sultan if they ever are relocated to Kuno. The clashes could be more brutal than we imagine and no matter who wins or loses we will loose our big cats anyways. So I actually don't think Kuno is a good choice for lions at all.

While you make a valid points, i maintain a different point of view altogether.

This whole landscape, being a mosaic of scrublands & woodlands (newly formed grasslands), has housed both cats for millenia..& hasn't undergone THAT drastic a change since.

*This image is copyright of its original author

They'll just have to find their own niche again & they'll have to do it THEMSELVES.
Eg: As to better the chances of success good lion specimens are most likely to be chosen for translocation, lion pride presence in Kuno might trigger the Ranthambore's transients to move Southwest towards the impoverished Dara & Mukundara sanctuaries...who knows!

By the time the lions start colonising, their numbers would have to be atleast 100 in Kuno forest-complex.
At thaf point, BOTH parties being inbred to an extent, it's VITAL that some die on either sides, for the sake of natural selection. The fate of the pushovers don't bother me... Reply

[Pckts]

From what I've seen, Tigers and lions live in very different habitats, I've never been to gir or ranthambhore but comparing Africa to India in the parks I've been to is pointless. They are so different and the style of life is incomparable. Reply

[Rishi]

(05-09-2017, 12:37 PM)Pckts Wrote: From what I've seen, Tigers and lions live in very different habitats, I've never been to gir or ranthambhore but comparing Africa to India in the parks I've been to is pointless. They are so different and the style of life is incomparable.

That doesn't hold good here, not so much.. atleast it's more complex.
(Even in Africa, don't didn't lions live in less denser forests of Gabon, CAR, Ethiopia, Rwanda wherever it could manage?)

The hills of proper Gir apparently has a somewhat similar degree of grassland/scrubland cover that does Ranthambore...some say lesser.
If i'm not mistaken, Girnar-hill Sanctuary has the largest density of lions presently...& THIS is how most of it looks like.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Also, the largest-ever pride here, the 32-strong Kamleshwar pride (named after the Kamleshwar Dam they live near) occupied a fairly densely forested land...However, it's quite loosely knit & they stay dispersed all over an area of 150 sq.kms, coming together occasionally to feed or socialise.

I CAN'T COMMENT ON WHICH ONE THEY PREFER MORE, THOUGH.
It's very confusing & whatever little that i know, isn't enough to do so... Reply

[Pckts]

Spoke with my guide on the subject, ranthambhore is like Tadoba in landscape but even more hilly, gir is open, dry and has little to no tree cover, much like the African terrain, I have major doubt that you can find suitable habitat for both in one place. Also, every park I went to has "open plains" or meadows but they're surrounded by dense forest and prey isn't andundent there like in Africa, no way it would support pride life and they'd still need to travel through the dense forest in search of prey, I see no way for both to coexist in the same territory unless one adapts the others way of life depending on where it is.
Just my 2 cents after seeing it first hand, I'll be able to go into more detail once I'm home. Reply

[Rishi]

(05-10-2017, 08:31 AM)Pckts Wrote: Spoke with my guide on the subject, ranthambhore is like Tadoba in landscape but even more hilly, gir is open, dry and has little to no tree cover, much like the African terrain, I have major doubt that you can find suitable habitat for both in one place. Also, every park I went to has "open plains" or meadows but they're surrounded by dense forest and prey isn't andundent there like in Africa, no way it would support pride life and they'd still need to travel through the dense forest in search of prey, I see no way for both to coexist in the same territory unless one adapts the others way of life depending on where it is.
Just my 2 cents after seeing it first hand, I'll be able to go into more detail once I'm home.

That's odd, where was that guide from??!!!
I've been to both Ranthambore & Gir as a teenager..They look EXACTLY same, with lot of flora overlap!!!
Actually Ranth has some grasslands, where there used to be villages & farms, but Gir has bushy scrublands..The hills are mostly barren.

Just Gir's vegetation consists of more dry forest species like acacia & teak (Ranth has more dry desiduous like babool, neem & dhok) & doesn't have those thickly wooded patches that Ranth does.
Both the other sanctuaries Girnar & Barda are thickly forested..Barda a bit less.
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I agree on the point that they won't coexist as i can't really imagine such a scenario, but territoial tensions should still remain...as both parties' most common habitat would be a similar woodland-grassland mozaic. Reply