There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(07-23-2014, 01:59 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: It does and it doesn't, no links to any eye witnesses saying that, and no eye witnesses of any fight between them. Multiple photographers specifically stating different things, none of which state how he was killed. Just because a tiger is dominate over his sons or challengers one day doesn't mean he will forever, especially in a 2 year time frame.
In regards to Munna, there is definitely no over exageration, he is a massive tiger. Not up for debate, to many photos, videos and eye witness accounts confirm it. Just use your eyes, he massive.
How many territorial fights have really been viewed between tigers ?
The answer is very very few.
Have anyone seen B2 vs Bokha, Bamera vs Bokha, Mukunda vs Bokha, Waghdoh vs Yeda anna, Raja vs Agasthya, T42 vs T36 etc etc fights
No not at all.
But these fights were found based on clues, time frame, location, injuries etc
Many people said that Konda was killed by his sons, because initially many thought Link 7 brothers were Konda's son (but they were not).
Some said it was Pattewala male but unforunately he was not seen around the crime scene.
Konda ruled Kisli from 2004 to 2008 till his death.
I haven't seen anybody say he was killed by his two sons, I have seen many people say he was killed by his "son" or another Tiger or Munna.
Always one tiger, so that all I can go off of, and that is why I don't think he was killed by "both sons" who you named, If you have any of these people names and link to them saying he was killed by his two sons, I would love to see them.
Let me make it simple for you.
Both Link 7 brothers were intially thought to be Konda's son.
Both Link 7 brothers were in that area before and after Konda's death.
Both Link 7 brothers settled in Kisli after Konda's death.
And after some time the dominant male (Bhima) kicked out his brother Arjun (collared one) from Kisli.
Arjun then moved to Kanha meadows.
Bhima became the dominant male in Kisli (not Munna or Pattewala, so as claimed by your sources if Munna or Pattewala had killed Konda then they should have taken over his territory and not the Link 7 brothers).
People started calling Bhima the son who killed the father (Konda).
So the point to remember here is that both brothers were together during Konda's death and they got seperated later.
Regarding Munna, he is a big male tiger. I never said he is a small tiger.
But his size was over exaggerated by the diehard Munna fans.
They try to make Munna a Ngandong tiger.
Once again though, spotting one brother, two brothers etc. has nothing to do with how konda died. All photographers I have seen have specifically said one male, brother or rival male. Lastly another said it is still unknown and there have been many wrong theories.
To try and say such a rare event happened with out a single person backing this claim, is wrong.
So there is 0 evidence to back any claim of him dying at the hands of his two sons, that is fact until proven otherwise.
Next, there is no "over exageration," The photos speak for themselves, the videos as well. Not even including the numerous eye witness accounts of people saying Munna is massive. Whethere you want to believe them about him being the largest tiger in Kahn or not, he is massive.
Not debatable, there is not a single account that deny's that, but there are tons that back it.
Nobody here has seen Munna, not Copters, me, you or anybody else, the only people that can speak of him are the ones that have seen him. I refuse to accept anybody elses opinion over theres, Im sorry, but that is unreasonable to do so.
This is the last I will post about his size, you guys believe whatever you want. But images and vids dont lie, let alone eye witness accounts.
Munna is anything but "overrated" and he is absolutely massive. If you deny this cat as being massive, you guys are not being reasonable. A prime territory holding male in one of the largest tiger parks and highest concetration of tigers in all of india, is nothing less than a monster.
Undeniable.
07-24-2014, 05:09 AM( This post was last modified: 07-24-2014, 05:17 AM by Apollo )
(07-24-2014, 12:45 AM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(07-23-2014, 08:02 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(07-23-2014, 06:35 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(07-23-2014, 02:55 AM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(07-23-2014, 01:59 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: It does and it doesn't, no links to any eye witnesses saying that, and no eye witnesses of any fight between them. Multiple photographers specifically stating different things, none of which state how he was killed. Just because a tiger is dominate over his sons or challengers one day doesn't mean he will forever, especially in a 2 year time frame.
In regards to Munna, there is definitely no over exageration, he is a massive tiger. Not up for debate, to many photos, videos and eye witness accounts confirm it. Just use your eyes, he massive.
How many territorial fights have really been viewed between tigers ?
The answer is very very few.
Have anyone seen B2 vs Bokha, Bamera vs Bokha, Mukunda vs Bokha, Waghdoh vs Yeda anna, Raja vs Agasthya, T42 vs T36 etc etc fights
No not at all.
But these fights were found based on clues, time frame, location, injuries etc
Many people said that Konda was killed by his sons, because initially many thought Link 7 brothers were Konda's son (but they were not).
Some said it was Pattewala male but unforunately he was not seen around the crime scene.
Konda ruled Kisli from 2004 to 2008 till his death.
I haven't seen anybody say he was killed by his two sons, I have seen many people say he was killed by his "son" or another Tiger or Munna.
Always one tiger, so that all I can go off of, and that is why I don't think he was killed by "both sons" who you named, If you have any of these people names and link to them saying he was killed by his two sons, I would love to see them.
Let me make it simple for you.
Both Link 7 brothers were intially thought to be Konda's son.
Both Link 7 brothers were in that area before and after Konda's death.
Both Link 7 brothers settled in Kisli after Konda's death.
And after some time the dominant male (Bhima) kicked out his brother Arjun (collared one) from Kisli.
Arjun then moved to Kanha meadows.
Bhima became the dominant male in Kisli (not Munna or Pattewala, so as claimed by your sources if Munna or Pattewala had killed Konda then they should have taken over his territory and not the Link 7 brothers).
People started calling Bhima the son who killed the father (Konda).
So the point to remember here is that both brothers were together during Konda's death and they got seperated later.
Regarding Munna, he is a big male tiger. I never said he is a small tiger.
But his size was over exaggerated by the diehard Munna fans.
They try to make Munna a Ngandong tiger.
Once again though, spotting one brother, two brothers etc. has nothing to do with how konda died. All photographers I have seen have specifically said one male, brother or rival male. Lastly another said it is still unknown and there have been many wrong theories.
To try and say such a rare event happened with out a single person backing this claim, is wrong.
So there is 0 evidence to back any claim of him dying at the hands of his two sons, that is fact until proven otherwise.
Next, there is no "over exageration," The photos speak for themselves, the videos as well. Not even including the numerous eye witness accounts of people saying Munna is massive. Whethere you want to believe them about him being the largest tiger in Kahn or not, he is massive.
Not debatable, there is not a single account that deny's that, but there are tons that back it.
Nobody here has seen Munna, not Copters, me, you or anybody else, the only people that can speak of him are the ones that have seen him. I refuse to accept anybody elses opinion over theres, Im sorry, but that is unreasonable to do so.
Regarding Konda's death Ive said what happened from my part.
Its upto you to decide what you want
Regarding Munna's size
Saying Munna weighs in 360 to 410Kg is overexaggerating
Saying Munna stands 120cm at the shoulders is overexaggerating
07-24-2014, 10:23 AM( This post was last modified: 07-24-2014, 10:29 AM by GuateGojira )
GUYS! Do you know that you are arguing about the size of cats that had not been measured or weighed???
In fact, I am 100% sure that all these giants are no heavier than 260 kg and no larger than c.205 cm in head-body length and c.105 cm in shoulder height. The only one probably larger than this size is Wagdoh and of course, the giants of Kaziranga.
The pictures show tigers of great size, but we most be serious, a modern tiger over the presented dimensions above are incredible rare, and none of these great males seems to be of that size.
07-24-2014, 09:55 PM( This post was last modified: 07-24-2014, 09:56 PM by Pckts )
(07-24-2014, 05:09 AM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(07-24-2014, 12:45 AM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(07-23-2014, 08:02 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(07-23-2014, 06:35 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(07-23-2014, 02:55 AM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(07-23-2014, 01:59 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: It does and it doesn't, no links to any eye witnesses saying that, and no eye witnesses of any fight between them. Multiple photographers specifically stating different things, none of which state how he was killed. Just because a tiger is dominate over his sons or challengers one day doesn't mean he will forever, especially in a 2 year time frame.
In regards to Munna, there is definitely no over exageration, he is a massive tiger. Not up for debate, to many photos, videos and eye witness accounts confirm it. Just use your eyes, he massive.
How many territorial fights have really been viewed between tigers ?
The answer is very very few.
Have anyone seen B2 vs Bokha, Bamera vs Bokha, Mukunda vs Bokha, Waghdoh vs Yeda anna, Raja vs Agasthya, T42 vs T36 etc etc fights
No not at all.
But these fights were found based on clues, time frame, location, injuries etc
Many people said that Konda was killed by his sons, because initially many thought Link 7 brothers were Konda's son (but they were not).
Some said it was Pattewala male but unforunately he was not seen around the crime scene.
Konda ruled Kisli from 2004 to 2008 till his death.
I haven't seen anybody say he was killed by his two sons, I have seen many people say he was killed by his "son" or another Tiger or Munna.
Always one tiger, so that all I can go off of, and that is why I don't think he was killed by "both sons" who you named, If you have any of these people names and link to them saying he was killed by his two sons, I would love to see them.
Let me make it simple for you.
Both Link 7 brothers were intially thought to be Konda's son.
Both Link 7 brothers were in that area before and after Konda's death.
Both Link 7 brothers settled in Kisli after Konda's death.
And after some time the dominant male (Bhima) kicked out his brother Arjun (collared one) from Kisli.
Arjun then moved to Kanha meadows.
Bhima became the dominant male in Kisli (not Munna or Pattewala, so as claimed by your sources if Munna or Pattewala had killed Konda then they should have taken over his territory and not the Link 7 brothers).
People started calling Bhima the son who killed the father (Konda).
So the point to remember here is that both brothers were together during Konda's death and they got seperated later.
Regarding Munna, he is a big male tiger. I never said he is a small tiger.
But his size was over exaggerated by the diehard Munna fans.
They try to make Munna a Ngandong tiger.
Once again though, spotting one brother, two brothers etc. has nothing to do with how konda died. All photographers I have seen have specifically said one male, brother or rival male. Lastly another said it is still unknown and there have been many wrong theories.
To try and say such a rare event happened with out a single person backing this claim, is wrong.
So there is 0 evidence to back any claim of him dying at the hands of his two sons, that is fact until proven otherwise.
Next, there is no "over exageration," The photos speak for themselves, the videos as well. Not even including the numerous eye witness accounts of people saying Munna is massive. Whethere you want to believe them about him being the largest tiger in Kahn or not, he is massive.
Not debatable, there is not a single account that deny's that, but there are tons that back it.
Nobody here has seen Munna, not Copters, me, you or anybody else, the only people that can speak of him are the ones that have seen him. I refuse to accept anybody elses opinion over theres, Im sorry, but that is unreasonable to do so.
Regarding Konda's death Ive said what happened from my part.
Its upto you to decide what you want
Regarding Munna's size
Saying Munna weighs in 360 to 410Kg is overexaggerating
Saying Munna stands 120cm at the shoulders is overexaggerating
Why do you only quote asianbuffalo?
Who by the way you backed about being knowledgable to Copters, those were your words.
Why don't you back the other multiple photographers who I have shown that all speak of his massive size?
Nobody here is claiming measurements or weights. Simply comparing him to other tigers.
So, Im not sure what you are saying.
Regards to Konda, I respect what you have said, but it is only one person. I look at the many other that do not claim what you have claimed, as well as the people actually being residents where these tigers live. I have to take their account over one person from this forum. No disrespect to you Apollo, you're one of my favorite posters to read on here.
(07-24-2014, 10:23 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: GUYS! Do you know that you are arguing about the size of cats that had not been measured or weighed???
In fact, I am 100% sure that all these giants are no heavier than 260 kg and no larger than c.205 cm in head-body length and c.105 cm in shoulder height. The only one probably larger than this size is Wagdoh and of course, the giants of Kaziranga.
The pictures show tigers of great size, but we most be serious, a modern tiger over the presented dimensions above are incredible rare, and none of these great males seems to be of that size.
Gaute, I would suggest not using "100% sure".
You know that is impossible to say, especially the fact that 260kg is attainable for tigers. The only tiger you can compare them to that you have actually seen on video is Madla, and the only video he has is not enough to say he is larger than many other males that have been photographed. You know as well as anybody, its impossible to tell the size of a tiger from one film clip or photo, I have seen many tigers that appear every bit as impressive as madla. Especially in kaziranga, Kahna, tadoba and even Ranthambhore, as of late. [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
(07-23-2014, 01:59 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: It does and it doesn't, no links to any eye witnesses saying that, and no eye witnesses of any fight between them. Multiple photographers specifically stating different things, none of which state how he was killed. Just because a tiger is dominate over his sons or challengers one day doesn't mean he will forever, especially in a 2 year time frame.
In regards to Munna, there is definitely no over exageration, he is a massive tiger. Not up for debate, to many photos, videos and eye witness accounts confirm it. Just use your eyes, he massive.
How many territorial fights have really been viewed between tigers ?
The answer is very very few.
Have anyone seen B2 vs Bokha, Bamera vs Bokha, Mukunda vs Bokha, Waghdoh vs Yeda anna, Raja vs Agasthya, T42 vs T36 etc etc fights
No not at all.
But these fights were found based on clues, time frame, location, injuries etc
Many people said that Konda was killed by his sons, because initially many thought Link 7 brothers were Konda's son (but they were not).
Some said it was Pattewala male but unforunately he was not seen around the crime scene.
Konda ruled Kisli from 2004 to 2008 till his death.
I haven't seen anybody say he was killed by his two sons, I have seen many people say he was killed by his "son" or another Tiger or Munna.
Always one tiger, so that all I can go off of, and that is why I don't think he was killed by "both sons" who you named, If you have any of these people names and link to them saying he was killed by his two sons, I would love to see them.
Let me make it simple for you.
Both Link 7 brothers were intially thought to be Konda's son.
Both Link 7 brothers were in that area before and after Konda's death.
Both Link 7 brothers settled in Kisli after Konda's death.
And after some time the dominant male (Bhima) kicked out his brother Arjun (collared one) from Kisli.
Arjun then moved to Kanha meadows.
Bhima became the dominant male in Kisli (not Munna or Pattewala, so as claimed by your sources if Munna or Pattewala had killed Konda then they should have taken over his territory and not the Link 7 brothers).
People started calling Bhima the son who killed the father (Konda).
So the point to remember here is that both brothers were together during Konda's death and they got seperated later.
Regarding Munna, he is a big male tiger. I never said he is a small tiger.
But his size was over exaggerated by the diehard Munna fans.
They try to make Munna a Ngandong tiger.
Once again though, spotting one brother, two brothers etc. has nothing to do with how konda died. All photographers I have seen have specifically said one male, brother or rival male. Lastly another said it is still unknown and there have been many wrong theories.
To try and say such a rare event happened with out a single person backing this claim, is wrong.
So there is 0 evidence to back any claim of him dying at the hands of his two sons, that is fact until proven otherwise.
Next, there is no "over exageration," The photos speak for themselves, the videos as well. Not even including the numerous eye witness accounts of people saying Munna is massive. Whethere you want to believe them about him being the largest tiger in Kahn or not, he is massive.
Not debatable, there is not a single account that deny's that, but there are tons that back it.
Nobody here has seen Munna, not Copters, me, you or anybody else, the only people that can speak of him are the ones that have seen him. I refuse to accept anybody elses opinion over theres, Im sorry, but that is unreasonable to do so.
Regarding Konda's death Ive said what happened from my part.
Its upto you to decide what you want
Regarding Munna's size
Saying Munna weighs in 360 to 410Kg is overexaggerating
Saying Munna stands 120cm at the shoulders is overexaggerating
Why do you only quote asianbuffalo?
Who by the way you backed about being knowledgable to Copters, those were your words.
Why don't you back the other multiple photographers who I have shown that all speak of his massive size?
Nobody here is claiming measurements or weights. Simply comparing him to other tigers.
So, Im not sure what you are saying.
Regards to Konda, I respect what you have said, but it is only one person. I look at the many other that do not claim what you have claimed, as well as the people actually being residents where these tigers live. I have to take their account over one person from this forum. No disrespect to you Apollo, you're one of my favorite posters to read on here.
Asianbuffalo aka Djl aka TigersofKanha aka thuetruyen123456789 were all the same.
The Naturalist or the conservationist and the two witness claims he was mentioning were from Ravi Naidu and Jason Fernandez.
I was not saying that everyone was over exaggerating Munna.
from 1:45 - 2:00 you should get a good idea of Madla's actual size, this guy was huge, larger than Waghdoh, Hairyfoot was largest central Indian tiger, PERIOD
Hairyfoot died on June 16th, 2003
Konda died on January 8th, 2008
07-25-2014, 06:49 PM( This post was last modified: 07-25-2014, 06:52 PM by Roflcopters )
Quote:Hairyfoot was largest central Indian tiger, PERIOD
There's hardly one picture available of Hairyfoot and you think he's the largest? Panna males were nothing special, they just happened to be the group that was weighed by the scientist (Dr.Raghu Chundawat). No males have been weighed from Tadoba, Kanha or Bandhavgarh in decades so your opinion holds no weight, im afraid. [img]images/smilies/dodgy.gif[/img]
P.S as Guate stated, this whole size and weight debate is pretty pointless without proper verification.
07-25-2014, 09:17 PM( This post was last modified: 07-25-2014, 09:19 PM by GuateGojira )
(07-24-2014, 09:59 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(07-24-2014, 10:23 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: GUYS! Do you know that you are arguing about the size of cats that had not been measured or weighed???
In fact, I am 100% sure that all these giants are no heavier than 260 kg and no larger than c.205 cm in head-body length and c.105 cm in shoulder height. The only one probably larger than this size is Wagdoh and of course, the giants of Kaziranga.
The pictures show tigers of great size, but we most be serious, a modern tiger over the presented dimensions above are incredible rare, and none of these great males seems to be of that size.
Gaute, I would suggest not using "100% sure".
You know that is impossible to say, especially the fact that 260kg is attainable for tigers. The only tiger you can compare them to that you have actually seen on video is Madla, and the only video he has is not enough to say he is larger than many other males that have been photographed. You know as well as anybody, its impossible to tell the size of a tiger from one film clip or photo, I have seen many tigers that appear every bit as impressive as madla. Especially in kaziranga, Kahna, tadoba and even Ranthambhore, as of late. [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Sorry my friend, but I am not only 100% sure that all those tigers don't surpass my estimated "large" size, but I am also 100% sure that this type of debates, with "0" reliable evidence, apart from sightings and pictures, is already irrelevant.
We can't take opinions are "evidence". The tigers from Central India seems as large as the largest Nepalese males, this is true, but not extremely large as those of Kaziranga. Pictures and biased witness are not evidence, only measurements in the field.
By the way, what it is true is that modern Ranthambore males ( year 2000 and over) look more massive than the old ones from 1980 and 1990. In that time, a 220-230 kg male was a large one for the area, now a 250 kg male is not out of question.
Quote:Hairyfoot was largest central Indian tiger, PERIOD
There's hardly one picture available of Hairyfoot and you think he's the largest?
No, I don't base my opinion on some silly images nor I came to a conclusion like Hairy was the largest CI male just coz of some popular opinion (like we have one on Waghdoh, big tigeer no doubt, but largest CI male??? gimme a break [img]images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img])
Now on Hairyfoot lemme give you a rationale, but first lemme make myself clear, I don't wanna be drawn into a war of words that will further derail the thread, this would be my last post in this thread.
In the Dr.Chundawat documentary we see Madla many times, but the only time which I feel gives us a better opportunity to judge his size is from the time frame of that video I've given in my last post, when Madla walks out of the bushes & on to the road. With a lil experience anyone could make out how big the tiger Madla was, even if Dr.Chundawat had not weighed him. Now in that doc. no where Dr.Chundawat talks about weighing or measuring Hairyfoot, but yet he called him the "badawala nar", from this it is quite obvious that Chundawat found HF outsizing Madla, mebbe Hairyfoot was taller or longer or more massively built, whatever the reason but Chundawat found him to be bigger than Madla, now how many tigers would outsize a tiger as big as Madla? NONE (barring NE tigers) in my opinion.
a few more of my onbservations:
Madla & Konda were similar sized tigers.
The only tigers from Bandhavgarh that are of impressive size are Bamera & Jobhi & to some extent Bokha.
B2 & Charger were higly overrated, nothing impressive about them sorry.
Munna from Kanha has a very big skull, size wise in his prime he was larger than prime B2, that's it.
Katezari & (prime) Bamera are similarly sized tigers.
Waghdoh big but definitely not the largest in CI.
don't blindly believe opinions on facebook & INW, many of those guys who go gaga over waghdoh's size i've notcied from their names (yeah in India by name we can figure out from where you hail from[img]images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img]) share their homestate with Waghdoh so there's bias involved here. I've heard from some guys from Rajasthan that how tigers from Ranthambore are absolute monsters & what not. [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
I've been to tiger reserves & national parks (since late 80s) & happen to know some people who frequent these places but that doesn't mean whatever I've stated here should be treated as gospel.
07-27-2014, 12:44 AM( This post was last modified: 07-27-2014, 12:45 AM by Roflcopters )
Quote:Now on Hairyfoot lemme give you a rationale, but first lemme make myself clear, I don't wanna be drawn into a war of words that will further derail the thread, this would be my last post in this thread. In the Dr.Chundawat documentary we see Madla many times, but the only time which I feel gives us a better opportunity to judge his size is from the time frame of that video I've given in my last post, when Madla walks out of the bushes & on to the road. With a lil experience anyone could make out how big the tiger Madla was, even if Dr.Chundawat had not weighed him. Now in that doc. no where Dr.Chundawat talks about weighing or measuring Hairyfoot, but yet he called him the "badawala nar", from this it is quite obvious that Chundawat found HF outsizing Madla, mebbe Hairyfoot was taller or longer or more massively built, whatever the reason but Chundawat found him to be bigger than Madla, now how many tigers would outsize a tiger as big as Madla? NONE (barring NE tigers) in my opinion.
Arre bhaiya ji, apko kia lagta hai ke badawala nar sirf Panna mai he hosakta hai? hum yehi kehna chah rahe the itni dhair se ke Panna ek akela he tiger reserve hai jahan ke males ko tola tala gaya Central India mai, Tadoba National Park mai bhi wagh hain aur un wagho mai se sab se bada Wagdoh hai. Poori Tourism Industry Wagdoh ke peeshay haat dho kar pari hai, sab to Wagdoh ki basha bolte hain, Largest Indian Male kehte phirt hain to isme koi bhi doubt nahi hona chahiye aur waise bhi, hum apki opinion aur experience ki kadar karte hain toh isi liye hum aaj yeh sab hindi mai likh rahe hain.
Male tiger konda's true death reason?
