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Animal Strength Feats
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The tigress could rather be spin-dragging the proboscidean by its limbs. Dragging the front limbs while spinning and pulling the elephant, and then grabbing hold of the hindlimbs and spin-pulling them further in the same direction. It is also easier in the more wetter grass/marshes.
It is a good trick for strongmen to do in case the weight is too heavy (usually a blocky, bulky object). They usually shift it little-by-little by holding one corner and pulling it in a direction, and then grabbing the next corner and spinning it in the same direction until the goal is reached. (12-15-2016, 12:22 PM)peter Wrote: Why do wild tigers fight dangerous animals at times? Nobody knows, but I think they, at regular intervals, need to get rid of their energy and, for that reason, pick a fight with an animal that can kill them. Anger or extreme rage is the reason. Sometimes something attacks them mentally (very strongly) and they don't have too many options to let it out: letting it out on another male might risk revenge later, letting it out on a female might risk a loss of possible future offspring. So they target usually large animals that can inflict serious injury instead of weaker, more vulnerable prey. Greater physical resistance results in greater physical alleviation. I think this energy is held-in rage. But this is opposite in humans. An angry person prefers to let out on a person of smaller size rather than a person that can inflict serious injuries. Maybe this difference is due to big cats (especially tigers) having a "killer instinct" and viewing everything, bigger and smaller, as potential prey. This means that that 1000-pound bear at the edge of the forest or that one-tonne gaur inside the plains clearing, or even a small 400-pound sambar are all prey. I've had a few thoughts of this type of behavior myself when I was younger, and if I think them now I will lose complete sanity. When we get angry (and filled with negative energy), we (even the strongest of us) wouldn't actually incite a physical altercation with a bull gorilla. But an angry tiger, if he/she feels like so, would easily do so.  (01-14-2017, 02:48 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Peter, about post #24; what are your thoughts about a tigress dragging the carcass of a bull elephant off a trail and into the jungle? Probably three tons ( 900 kg ) or more dead weight. This just doesn't seem possible to me. Am I missing something? Sorry about the late reply, Brotherbear. I missed the post as a result of a number of problems that had to be addressed. As to the question. Over the years, I read many books written by those who hunted tigers in Russia, Mongolia, China, Iran, Nepal, India, Sumatra and Indochina. Most of these were written well before World War Two, but not all. Nearly every writer described feats of strength that amazed them. When you read about one example, the tendency is to add a bit of salt to the report. When I had read dozens of reports I consider authentic, I changed my mind. In order to test the reports, I asked trainers if they believed a lion or tiger would be able to overcome an animal three or four times their size. With ease, they said. How about dragging an animal 6-10 times their own weight, I asked. Same answer, but they agreed wild lions and tigers would dwarf their captive relatives in this respect. Nearly every trainer I talked to offered a number of details. When they saw I still had some doubts, one of them took me backstage. He had two male lions and five lionesses. He took them out and selected the smallest lioness. About 100 kg., he said when he gave her the rope. When she started pulling in earnest, the trainer, a big man, more or less disintegrated. When he had recovered and saw me laughing, I got the rope. I'm not saying she pulled me trough the bars, but it was close. After I had moved my nose to the correct place, the trainer told her to keep it civilised. Than both us had a go. Together, I mean. Same result. After a new try, one of the male lions got interested. Just over 400 (pounds), the trainer said. Want to have a try? Before I had decided, the lion made it clear he wasn't going to be nice. After we had been crushed, more men reported for duty. This was the moment the other male lion decided to assist his pal. When we talk big cat, tooth and claw often feature. Their main weapon, however, is strength. I'm not even going to try to describe it. Apart from that, there is genes, thousands of years of evolution, attitude and aggression. The amount of aggression big cats have is something difficult to fathom. When people have fysical contact with big cats, they often fail to notice the immense power they have. When visiting a trainer in the south of our country, he told me to beware of the lion when we arrived at his home. I thought he was joking, but he wasn't. Neither was the lioness who directly came for me. At about 9 months or so, she was not as heavy as I was, but every inch of it was lion. People attacked by big cats often get away with it. They seldom experience the full force. The reason is we are smallish. This means that a big cat can't unload his energy. A big cat developed to attack and bring down big animals. With big, I mean big. A lion attacking a buffalo four times his own weight tries to get a grip at a place where he can't be touched. The first object is to get control. The next step is to penetrate the skin. Than he has to hold on. What may seem clumsy in our eyes, is an effective attempt to slow the buffalo down and exhaust him. This often takes many minutes. Minutes in which he uses everything he has. Ever tried to give it all you have and keep it up for 30 seconds? Close to impossible for us, but big cats can do it for many minutes. When they let go and regained their breath, they attack again. And again. Every time, they give it everything they have. When the buffalo goes down, it is a result of sheer exhaustion. He is finished and he knows. What remains is to kill him. This too is something that requires skill, endurance and enormous strength. When the buffalo is killed, the carcass has to be opened. Meat, fresh meat, has to be torn from bones. While at it, you have to compete with your family members. What I'm saying is wild big cats have tremendous power. People have no idea. When posters discuss lions and tigers, they often start about the difference in hunting. Not a few tend to think that lions are amateurs in this department. They also think they are no match for a large male tiger able to kill a big boy on his own. I beg to disagree. It's true that adult tigers, solitary hunters, often know how to kill a large animal as fast as possible. It takes a lot of experience and strength. This is why adult tigers often are very muscular animals. But adult male lions, although perhaps a bit less developed in the muscle department, know about extended fights and using all their energy. They also have the frame to administer and take punishment. Wild lions know how to use their strength and how to maul and kill animals larger than themselves. The difference is both kill in a different way. They also use their frame and muscles in a different way. I wasn't there when the tigress moved the elephant, Brotherbear. But Locke saw the Malaysian tigress move a big bull buffalo she had killed on her own. The photograph of the bull in his book showed it really was a big animal. The tigresses he shot averaged 7.4 in total length in a straight line. In some parts of Africa, India and Iran, male leopards not seldom exceed that length. The tigress that allegedly moved an elephant shot by an American hunter was shot in what's now Myanmar. I don't know if it was a large animal, as he didn't shoot her. Maybe the elphant died on a slope and maybe the tigress waited for rain to assist her. Maybe she was assisted by one of the two males the hunter shot the next day. But when he noticed the elephant had been removed, he concluded a tigress had moved the body. I've yet to read a story about a tiger or lion moving a very large animal over a long distance, but I do not doubt that they can and do move large animals on their own at times. A few feet in some instances maybe, but they are able to do it and reliable observers wrote they saw it. I repeat that wild big cats are powerful animals. 
@peter:
About #34: you say "This is why adult tigers often are very muscular animals. But adult male lions, although perhaps a bit less developed in the muscle department, know about extended fights and using all their energy. They also have the frame to administer and take punishment. Wild lions know how to use their strength and how to maul and kill animals larger than themselves. The difference is both kill in a different way. They also use their frame and muscles in a different way." Your posts are really fascinating, definitely. But what do you mean by "The difference is both kill in a different way" when we are evoking a lone lion and a lone tiger toward a big prey ? An innate behaviour induced by their way of life (social/solitary) ? 
I have no doubt concerning the strength of either the lion or the tiger. Pckts mentioned in another topic that due to the more flexible spine of the big cats, that a tiger can push with his hind legs underneath his body while pulling a heavy carcass by his jaws and of course pushing also with his front legs, if I am understanding his post correctly. When the tiger is pulling a heavy load, he is actually pushing against the ground with all four paws. Pulling a tremendously heavy carcass then, I would think, is a matter of both great strength and technique.
 (01-17-2017, 04:23 PM)brotherbear Wrote: I have no doubt concerning the strength of either the lion or the tiger. Pckts mentioned in another topic that due to the more flexible spine of the big cats, that a tiger can push with his hind legs underneath his body while pulling a heavy carcass by his jaws and of course pushing also with his front legs, if I am understanding his post correctly. When the tiger is pulling a heavy load, he is actually pushing against the ground with all four paws. Pulling a tremendously heavy carcass then, I would think, is a matter of both great strength and technique. Correctly interpreted brobear. A big cat will need to drive their anchors into the ground (limbs) then pull backwards, we jokingly say "push the earth down" when we do this on my strongman training days. You can see this example here  *This image is copyright of its original author and here you can see the extreme example  *This image is copyright of its original author This is where the longer and more flexible spine comes in, the cat is able to curve the rear end of its spine, thus creating leverage and driving its body weight into the ground, this is the anchor point, once good footing is gained, the cat can now begin to lean backwards while driving its body into the ground, once the object begins to move, it now becomes easier to continually keep the object moving unless of course it's just to heavy and you expel all your energy simply budging it. For this type of movement, the most important muscles will be in the cats rear section. It's hips, legs and general core strength will be the muscles firing most, the jaws will be the grip and the forelimbs and chest will be the stabilizing and secondary force. As peter and brobear alluded to, this isn't only brute strength but also technique. A cat would of had to try and fail many different pulling and tugging options to figure out which position is best for which scenario. It is also this repetitive failure and success that will separate any wild animal from its captive counterpart. A captive animal will have what is commonly referred to as "enrichment,'' and this is meant to stimulate the cat and allow it to burn some of its excess energy by imitating its movements from the wild. The problem is, this is stationary objects, and while they may weigh the same as an animal the cat would prey on, this object isn't fighting for its life. When you get resistance from the object you're trying to move, that increases muscle growth and core strength. I've been a fighter for most of my life, before I was a boxer I was an mma fighter and started as a BJJ student and I can tell you first hand, there are no stronger human beings on earth than wrestlers. (at least when it comes to core strength) You can always tell who's a wrestler from who's just a brutally strong guy, a wrestler will first have much better technique, they'll keep your shoulders pressed to the mat and they'll control top position, this of course is the goal for any fighter but they are able to do this while maintaining a top position that feels like an anvil is on your chest. Trying to move a good, strong wrestler is like trying to budge a piece of concrete. What I'm getting at is that it's not only the fact that they spend all day trying to move things that don't want to be moved (other wrestlers) and what that does is teach the wrestler different techniques for different positions while gaining great stabilizer strength and grip strength as well. The same will be said for a wild animal, if they make a living on tackling live prey, fighting for its life, they will use far more muscles than an animal who occasionally gets to roll a big ball around from time to time.  (01-17-2017, 01:17 PM)peter Wrote: Sorry about the late reply, Brotherbear. I missed the post as a result of a number of problems that had to be addressed. I've heard of similar behaviors in polar bears, and have an account in the "Bears as Predators" thread in which a polar bear was witnessed killing several narwhals consecutively. It was unknown as to why he did it. Energy relief, perhaps? Maybe the bear had too much negative energy in him and needed to let it out in a way identical to all carnivores, which is to physically kill. Anger, either held-in or recent, could also be a cause for this. Killing behavior results from this as well. Predation skill-practicing is another valid reason. The bear probably felt the need to attempt his growing predation skills by killing several narwhals in order to be secure in the skills. There are many cases of humans who, one day, decide to go berserk and go on a rampage or an assault of some sort. Most of these humans are said to be completely normal, even surpassing societal standards. However, just like in big cats (and other carnivores) there is a time when a sudden release of built-in energy or stress has to be conducted. The human world doesn't allow for this (forced laws), the natural world does. There are no penalties for a tiger, out of repressed rage, deciding to attack (rather kill) a bull gaur for example. Except death, obviously. There are those who can intimidate others into submission and not reach their boilding points, and there are ones who don't like to constantly bully others and hold their aggression inwards, leading to them to letting it out all at once. Lions and brown bears are bullies who follow the former example; tigers and polar bears are quiet, yet unpredictable-natured beings who follow the latter example. Yet big cats typically fall towards the latter. In all, it is totally healthy for an animal that doesn't rely on sole intimidation of others to kill when he/she reaches the energy maximum. 
Lack of exercise of their potential makes animals in the wild weak. When they don't exercise for longer times to their potential the demand for blood supply to muscles decreases and they may start developing to be weak which is not at all desirable in the wild. So they have to correct that rhythm of becoming weak. Particularly in case of tigers and bears this phenomenon seems to be prevalent. They seem to love doing this kind of stuff to redevelop the rhythm of becoming or maintaining that desirablestrength.
Strength of tiger,
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
Why aren't we allowed to have a FRIENDLY debate about Tigers vs lions in any aspect, without any trolling, spamming or flame wars??...I just want to prove that Tigers are BY FAR the most powerful and strongest of all the big Cats, bar none. What's wrong with discussing that if NO trolls or spamming is involved??...
Sometimes you need a debate to liven up the forum and make it more interesting, instead of posting the same well known info, over and over and over again! I have alot of legendary strength feats from Tigers, and i thought it would be interesting to see if any Lion enthusiasts have anything to compare with it. We can debate this subject in a friendly manner and be sincere and at the same time exchange and compare accounts. 
Hello Barka.
As you may have noticed, I hadn't allowed your thread to be posted. We have a policy of avoiding lion vs tiger comparisons in every way because it leads to fighting and frankly it only brings trouble to the forum. So I want to ask you to not invite this kind of talk, even having good intentions. You are, however, more than welcome to read and participate in the threads of boths of these animals. Save the condition I expressed before, we are all eager to learn and discuss them. Thank you.  (11-26-2017, 06:43 PM)BARKA Wrote: I just want to prove that Tigers are BY FAR the most powerful and strongest of all the big Cats, bar none. What's wrong with discussing that if NO trolls or spamming is involved??... You can't... What if someone points out that, pound for pound, jaguars tend to have the most bite force & muscle mass. You'll claim true size..? What if someone points out that in multiple tiger sub-species, males average 120 kilos, while smallest lion sub-species (West-African lions) have average weight of 150 kilos..? It's not allowed for a reason. You should know that your proposal was considered, discussed & decided against. You're being requested to respect that decision. Be a Wildlife enthusiast instead of being a lion/tiger enthusiast, & you'll enjoy Wildfact... Quote:I have alot of legendary strength feats from Tigers.. ..those can be posted i think. Create a thread here: wildfact.com/forum/forum-tiger.
BARKA
You most probably know that the lion-tiger debate left quite a few animal forums totally destroyed. For this reason, we decided against it. WildFact nearly has 500 members. Those who post, focus on good information. The result is quite a few interesting threads about lions, tigers, jaguars and leopards. Over 5 million views say this is what readers appreciate. |
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