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10 hours ago( This post was last modified: 10 hours ago by Tr1x24 )
(Yesterday, 03:01 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Lisa Antell's account of a sighting she had at Londolozi, September of last year, a strange interaction between Tsalala and her then 3 cubs with the smaller PCM:
Tsalala and her cubs with a Plains Camp male on Tavangumi Koppies in a fascinating and puzzling interaction.
Last September 12 2024 we came upon the lions resting at the base of the Koppies. As we pulled into the sighting Tsalala was urging the 3 cubs away and up into the craggy rocky koppies, putting herself defensively between them and the big PCM behind her.
12 September? Good to know.
1-2 weeks later, this is him with those same cubs:
*This image is copyright of its original author
That sighting was 1st encounter between him and cubs, so obviously Tsalala was careful and alert.
(Yesterday, 03:01 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Lisa Antell's account of a sighting she had at Londolozi, September of last year, a strange interaction between Tsalala and her then 3 cubs with the smaller PCM:
Tsalala and her cubs with a Plains Camp male on Tavangumi Koppies in a fascinating and puzzling interaction.
Last September 12 2024 we came upon the lions resting at the base of the Koppies. As we pulled into the sighting Tsalala was urging the 3 cubs away and up into the craggy rocky koppies, putting herself defensively between them and the big PCM behind her.
12 September? Good to know.
1-2 weeks later, this is him with those same cubs:
*This image is copyright of its original author
That sighting was 1st encounter between him and cubs, so obviously Tsalala was careful and alert.
Yeah this account doesn't explain much, unfortunately.
We know the 3 cubs were lost in quick succession, despite the smaller PCM being seen in close proximity to them on a number of occasions. Of course, I want to qualify that lions don't always behave as "logically" as humans do, and there's a danger to ascribing human-like qualities to nature, which works in many ways far beyond our understanding. We don't actually have any evidence of the cubs being killed by the smaller PCM either. But let's assume he did - I have a theory as to why it happened.
We know that the southern Avoca male and the Kruger male were chased away by the 2 PCMs, shortly after the duo had chased Makhunga (bigger PCM). We know that Tsalala was seen with injuries, and when her first cub was lost, many people suggested the Southern Avoca and the kruger male as culprits. Then within a couple of days, the other 2 cubs disappeared. The cubs were basically lost within a week, not over the course of a few weeks, which this account suggests.
I think the Southern Avoca and the Kruger male did kill the first cub. Tsalala was seen with her other 2 cubs afterwards. What I think happened was when the PCMs encountered Tsalala and her 2 cubs in the aftermath of chasing the Kruger Male and Souther Avoca, they found 2 cubs still alive. Now, maybe they found it odd that rival males left 2 cubs alive despite outnumbering Tsalala. perhaps they felt then that those 2 cubs weren't theirs and belonged to the other coalition instead, which is why the 2 cubs were spared. Having assumed this, one of them proceeded to kill both cubs (or both of them, who knows). Now this is behaviour that hasn't really been documented, and we don't know anything for sure and this certainly isn't fact. But I do feel it might be a reasonable explanation for why the 2 cubs were killed out of nowhere despite interacting with both PCMs on multiple occasions (and alone with the smaller PCM too), before disappearing rapidly after their first sibling was killed.
Alternative explanations could be that the Ximungwe pride was involved (they were seen in the Tavangumi Koppies soon after), or, they could have been killed by hyenas or leopards. We'll never know for sure.
(Yesterday, 03:01 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Lisa Antell's account of a sighting she had at Londolozi, September of last year, a strange interaction between Tsalala and her then 3 cubs with the smaller PCM:
Tsalala and her cubs with a Plains Camp male on Tavangumi Koppies in a fascinating and puzzling interaction.
Last September 12 2024 we came upon the lions resting at the base of the Koppies. As we pulled into the sighting Tsalala was urging the 3 cubs away and up into the craggy rocky koppies, putting herself defensively between them and the big PCM behind her.
12 September? Good to know.
1-2 weeks later, this is him with those same cubs:
*This image is copyright of its original author
That sighting was 1st encounter between him and cubs, so obviously Tsalala was careful and alert.
Yeah this account doesn't explain much, unfortunately.
We know the 3 cubs were lost in quick succession, despite the smaller PCM being seen in close proximity to them on a number of occasions. Of course, I want to qualify that lions don't always behave as "logically" as humans do, and there's a danger to ascribing human-like qualities to nature, which works in many ways far beyond our understanding. We don't actually have any evidence of the cubs being killed by the smaller PCM either. But let's assume he did - I have a theory as to why it happened.
We know that the southern Avoca male and the Kruger male were chased away by the 2 PCMs, shortly after the duo had chased Makhunga (bigger PCM). We know that Tsalala was seen with injuries, and when her first cub was lost, many people suggested the Southern Avoca and the kruger male as culprits. Then within a couple of days, the other 2 cubs disappeared. The cubs were basically lost within a week, not over the course of a few weeks, which this account suggests.
I think the Southern Avoca and the Kruger male did kill the first cub. Tsalala was seen with her other 2 cubs afterwards. What I think happened was when the PCMs encountered Tsalala and her 2 cubs in the aftermath of chasing the Kruger Male and Souther Avoca, they found 2 cubs still alive. Now, maybe they found it odd that rival males left 2 cubs alive despite outnumbering Tsalala. perhaps they felt then that those 2 cubs weren't theirs and belonged to the other coalition instead, which is why the 2 cubs were spared. Having assumed this, one of them proceeded to kill both cubs (or both of them, who knows). Now this is behaviour that hasn't really been documented, and we don't know anything for sure and this certainly isn't fact. But I do feel it might be a reasonable explanation for why the 2 cubs were killed out of nowhere despite interacting with both PCMs on multiple occasions (and alone with the smaller PCM too), before disappearing rapidly after their first sibling was killed.
Alternative explanations could be that the Ximungwe pride was involved (they were seen in the Tavangumi Koppies soon after), or, they could have been killed by hyenas or leopards. We'll never know for sure.
I seriously doubt it, the cubs were bonded apt with both males, I also don’t think both PCMs would have been around knowing that they had already lost a cub, and say they did know that and more importantly who killed the cub, why would they think these same males are the actual sires of these cubs. Lions just don’t think like this.
I remember hearing about the Enkoyonai males in Masai Mara as cubs with photos shared by a photographer, who also mentioned that these cubs were being watched over by two separate coalitions within the space of a single day. The first thing I thought was how is this possible, surely the males would’ve picked up on the scent of unfamiliar males on these same cubs while grooming them and then become hostile, but no. Not a single cub was said to have been injured by either coalition. They must have already been bonded to the point it didn’t matter, great job from the mothers in that aspect.
Both PCMs were spotted separately with these cubs and had the chance to do damage but were completely comfortable in sightings, myself, prolly like most ppl in here, believed PCMs most likely had nothing to do with the disappearance of the cubs but wasn’t 100% because of this ‘weird encounter between them and the other PCM’ which just seems to have been put to bed.
The pride and the PCmales never spend much time with eachother. So the bonds between the males and the cubs werent that well developed.
This bond determines if a male attacks the cubs or not and is often formed at introduction when the cubs are to small and timid to be more than a slight nausance.
However if this bond does not form properly. It just depends on how much frustration the males put up with before they lash out. The cubs can be fine for multiple sightings and than still be killed if they do something that the males refuse to put up with. Once one cub is killed, the mood between the lionesses and male can shift drasticly, resulting in the death of the other cubs.
This might have happened in this case. But ultimately we will never know. But due to the rapid succession in which they died,I think the deaths are connected to eachother.
(9 hours ago)Duco Ndona Wrote: The pride and the PCmales never spend much time with eachother. So the bonds between the males and the cubs werent that well developed.
This bond determines if a male attacks the cubs or not and is often formed at introduction when the cubs are to small and timid to be more than a slight nausance.
However if this bond does not form properly. It just depends on how much frustration the males put up with before they lash out. The cubs can be fine for multiple sightings and than still be killed if they do something that the males refuse to put up with. Once one cub is killed, the mood between the lionesses and male can shift drasticly, resulting in the death of the other cubs.
This might have happened in this case. But ultimately we will never know. But due to the rapid succession in which they died,I think the deaths are connected to eachother.
Can you cite an example of this? Have not heard of this behaviour - I've heard of males being aggressive towards their cubs, but not exterminating them altogether lol
1 hour ago( This post was last modified: 1 hour ago by Duco Ndona )
Probably because it is pretty rare and even this case is murky. I was more pondering why it could have went down if we intertain the idea that the PCmales did it. .
Most prides either fall under full control of the males or are abandoned. So bonds are either well formed or not at all.
And cases like Tsalala are rarely documented well due to their leopard lifestyle. So cubs just disappear.
Its actually more a theory I came up with to explain cases of delayed infanticide like we saw when the Majingijane took over the Othawa pride from the Selati or in tha Video Rob the ranger once posted about the male lion breaking a youngsters back.
I found it odd that if there was a strong instincts to kill rival cubs. You still get cases like these.
