There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(Yesterday, 10:38 AM)Ttimemarti Wrote: I mean as long as we can keep track of gingerella and her daughters then we’ll all know but it’s strange most of the ximhungwe pride is othawa pride blood you can’t change their genes she’s othawa and will always be an othawa lioness but just in a different pride… she’s a ximhungwe female now but she’ll always be an othawa is what I’m trying to say lol I just wish it was a easier way to explain it
I think once a lioness helps her young partner with two daughters, and does not have cubs. In her honor lioness should be Ximhungwe lioness. Although wonder Ximhungwe lioness is going to have more cubs.
(12-18-2024, 09:36 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: I would assume lioness No.1 being the oldest due to having fully black nose unlike the younger individuals.
Do not really know if looking at the nose color is accurate as older lions can also have lighter color noses also some guides say that it's not accurate to base their age on the nose color.
It can definitely vary a lot from lion to lion, but you'll never see an old lion with a pink nose. And in this case we can use it accurately to determine which lioness is which, considering there is such an age gap between them.
(Yesterday, 03:37 AM)adamstocks16 Wrote: The whole Ximhungwe/Othawa scenario would definitely get quite complicated for anyone who doesn’t have the knowledge of the respective prides and their history. For me it does add an interesting layer to their already complex history and also the fact for the majority of this period they have been the two main rival prides in the west of Sabi Sands.
Although Gingerella is considered a fully fledged member of Ximhungwe Pride now I would personally find it difficult to continue the name if it was just left with her and her two daughters. It would be a shame to lose another iconic pride of Sabi Sands but ultimately this is nature and their is no room for sentiment. Sparta Pride, possibly the most famous and well known of all prides in the history of Sabi Sands went extinct and some have been or close to the brink of collapse namely Southern Pride, Othawa Pride and Tsalala Pride.
This is the natural way of things and allows others to rise up and take their place and write their own history, if you think some of these newer prides didn’t even exist a decade ago and now have become synonymous with the lion dynamics of Sabi Sands such as Mhangeni, Kambula and Msuthlu. I can see why the topic divides opinion so much and probably there isn’t a right or wrong answer. Anyway, let’s hope the old lioness is able to raise some cubs to independence and in doing so continue the original Ximhungwe bloodline.
I couldn't agree with you more. I'm also rooting for the Ximhungwe lioness to bear some female cubs to keep the Ximhungwe name going but if not, then so be it. If she dies without having any female cubs and the reserve(s) names Gingerella and her cubs as a new pride, I would personally agree with that. In such large ecosystems, prides will continue to rise and fall over time and as long as these ecosystems remain protected and connected, new prides will continue to rise in place of those extinct prides because Nature abhors a vacuum.
Yesterday, 08:01 PM( This post was last modified: Yesterday, 08:03 PM by BA0701 )
(Yesterday, 11:16 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Well lets say we go with the bloodline stuff. It even gets more complicated.
If Ximhungwe dies we would have two Othawa prides.
Will Gingerella gain the Othawa pride name as she is the oldest and biggest Othawa group. Or will the two current semi nomadic Othawas keep the title?
And what will we call the losing pride instead if Ximhungwe is off the table?
While, I truly hope things do not come to that, I am sure, if it does, that the new pride would simply get a new name, akin to how breakaway prides are sometimes given new names, like the Ntsevu and Msutlu.
My bet is that if Ximhungwe female dies without leaving female offspring in the pride, the name will officially carry on with the Othawa-blooded lions and I can 100% see why they'd go this way and don't disagree with it necessarily.
I also don't think they should be named the Othawa or Othawa Breakaway pride but although I don't think they'll do it, renaming them to another completely new name would work out for me as well, like with the Msuthu pride.
That way we don't have a Ximhungwe pride without Ximhungwe blood, having to constantly explain it in the future, nor do we have another Othawa pride which also wouldn't make sense, but rather a brand new pride that new followers can see and immediately assimilate "ok, this is the X pride", instead of being like "so this is the Ximhungwe pride but apparently nobody in the pride is Ximhungwe but rather Othawa who brokeway and killed the other Othawa?" or "is this the Othawa Breakaway pride that was the Ximhungwe pride but has no more Ximhungwe lions?".
(Yesterday, 09:37 PM)Mapokser Wrote: I also don't think they should be named the Othawa or Othawa Breakaway pride but although I don't think they'll do it
100% dissagree. Othawa breakaway is essenially what they are and therefore I do not see reason why they shouldn't be called that way.
(Yesterday, 09:37 PM)Mapokser Wrote: My bet is that if Ximhungwe female dies without leaving female offspring in the pride, the name will officially carry on with the Othawa-blooded lions and I can 100% see why they'd go this way and don't disagree with it necessarily.
I also don't think they should be named the Othawa or Othawa Breakaway pride but although I don't think they'll do it, renaming them to another completely new name would work out for me as well, like with the Msuthu pride.
That way we don't have a Ximhungwe pride without Ximhungwe blood, having to constantly explain it in the future, nor do we have another Othawa pride which also wouldn't make sense, but rather a brand new pride that new followers can see and immediately assimilate "ok, this is the X pride", instead of being like "so this is the Ximhungwe pride but apparently nobody in the pride is Ximhungwe but rather Othawa who brokeway and killed the other Othawa?" or "is this the Othawa Breakaway pride that was the Ximhungwe pride but has no more Ximhungwe lions?".
I doubt lodges care enough about bloodlines and what makes sense, It will come down to laziness in the end whether they change or not the name of the pride I believe sadly
(Yesterday, 09:56 PM)Rui Ferreira Wrote: I doubt lodges care enough about bloodlines and what makes sense, It will come down to laziness in the end whether they change or not the name of the pride I believe sadly
Yea, they will prob just stick with Ximhungwe pride.
(Yesterday, 11:16 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Well lets say we go with the bloodline stuff. It even gets more complicated.
If Ximhungwe dies we would have two Othawa prides.
Will Gingerella gain the Othawa pride name as she is the oldest and biggest Othawa group. Or will the two current semi nomadic Othawas keep the title?
And what will we call the losing pride instead if Ximhungwe is off the table?
While, I truly hope things do not come to that, I am sure, if it does, that the new pride would simply get a new name, akin to how breakaway prides are sometimes given new names, like the Ntsevu and Msutlu.
If it did come to that gingerella is the breakaway female her two younger sisters are members of the OG pride gingerella left so she’d get the new name BUT I hope and pray this ximhungwe female has a big litter! She’s not too old very healthy and she’s in great condition
I think we are putting far more importance on this whole bloodline thing than is reasonable.
Ultimately this is about animal behavoir. Not the continuation of the habsburg regime. And the facts on the ground is simply that she is a Ximhungwe now. Regardless of bloodlines or not.
I really dont see why we need to complicate things with unnecessary namechanges. The history of the pride is easy to understand and well known. A namechange would only add to any confusion.
(11 hours ago)Duco Ndona Wrote: I think we are putting far more importance on this whole bloodline thing than is reasonable.
Ultimately this is about animal behavoir. Not the continuation of the habsburg regime. And the facts on the ground is simply that she is a Ximhungwe now. Regardless of bloodlines or not.
I really dont see why we need to complicate things with unnecessary namechanges. The history of the pride is easy to understand and well known. A namechange would only add to any confusion.
For those who don’t know they’ll think he’s a real member of the pride but she’s really not, and idk about a name change but the ximhungwe bloodline could very well go extinct but hopefully not
(Yesterday, 01:18 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Its not that difficult. Prides are first and foremost a social political group.
None of the lions care at all about bloodlines and such.
At this point Gingerella is pretty much 100% a Ximhungwe. She is behaving no different as if she was born in the pride as one one Ximhungwes cubs and actively took part in the attacks on her natal pride.
If Ximhungwe were to die. She will continue the pride like normal. So she deserves the name.
Quote:Duco Ndona
I think we are putting far more importance on this whole bloodline thing than is reasonable.
Ultimately this is about animal behavoir. Not the continuation of the habsburg regime. And the facts on the ground is simply that she is a Ximhungwe now. Regardless of bloodlines or not.
I really dont see why we need to complicate things with unnecessary namechanges. The history of the pride is easy to understand and well known. A namechange would only add to any confusion.
I dont think it can be put in better words than that.
Gingerella is a Ximhungwe at this point, they are the legacy of the pride and this attachment to names is an unnecessary idealization of ours.
What would she be called if not Ximhungwe? Othawa? Theres already an Othawa pride. Create another name? well thats pointless.
She is a Ximhungwe and her two daughters were born as Ximhungwe, blood is actually the least important in this scenario, the pride is rebuilt atp.
Regardless, Ximhungwe mated with PCMs a few months ago, she should/could have cubs soon no?
Just like everyone else i hope she has cubs, especially to continue her direct lineage which is not only Ximhungwe but also Selati. If that does not happen, then Gingerella and her daughters are also Ximhungwe and the pride lives on.
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9 hours ago( This post was last modified: 9 hours ago by Duco Ndona )
(10 hours ago)Ttimemarti Wrote:
(11 hours ago)Duco Ndona Wrote: I think we are putting far more importance on this whole bloodline thing than is reasonable.
Ultimately this is about animal behavoir. Not the continuation of the habsburg regime. And the facts on the ground is simply that she is a Ximhungwe now. Regardless of bloodlines or not.
I really dont see why we need to complicate things with unnecessary namechanges. The history of the pride is easy to understand and well known. A namechange would only add to any confusion.
For those who don’t know they’ll think he’s a real member of the pride but she’s really not, and idk about a name change but the ximhungwe bloodline could very well go extinct but hopefully not
Why isn't she a real member? If you need to know this little piece of information to understand the difference? Is it really then all that relevant?
True, the bloodline might go extinct and that's regrettable.
But its not like we link that with pride names. The genetic composition of the reserve is far to complex to just point at two lionesses and say they are or aren't related based on their pride alone.
Gingerellas cubs for example, if the PCmales are successfull, are half sisters to the Mangheni cubs, Ridgenoses cubs, the late ximhungwe and Tsalala cubs and any potential future litter in the Othawa and Tsalala pride. Despite not sharing their names.
I think that if anyone gets confused over this. Its not the reserves fault for not changing a name, but their own for neglecting to do their research and assuming on name alone.
Gingerella is absolutely a Ximungwe now, for sure. She was taken in by the older lioness, they became a team, and she even attacked her own mother with her new pridemate, an attack that eventually lead to Sassy's death. So, there is no question, she is a full blown member of the Ximungwe Pride. My, personal, thinking is just that if, Heaven forbid, something were to happen to the older lioness, she is the last of the Ximungwe blood, so a new name might be justified. As I mentioned, there is no right or wrong answer, it was just an interesting aside to think about when these two paired up, let's just hope we don't have to figure it out.
