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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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@peter
In my next post on tiger predation on bears, I will post the entire list of adult male brown bears hunted, killed and eaten by tigers. So people can see there's a bunch of authentic cases of adult male, mostly large males, brown bears falling prey to tigers. All accounts were reported by either biologists, rangers or seasoned hunters. Mikhail Krechmar's Opinion To put it bluntly, Krechmar, in my opinion, is a joke! And in his book "Shaggy God" he made an outright stupid, false and laughable statement about tigers and brown bears. Which very clearly showed his extreme bias and preference for bears, to the point, where he wrote blatant misinformation about tiger-brown bear clashes. Such a ridiculous statement, that no other wildlife expert, biologist, zoologist, ranger, naturalist, hunter, etc, in all of history, has ever wrote. Krechmar claims that there's "much more" cases of brown bears killing tigers than vice versa! An absolute nonsensical statement and lie! Here's Krechmar's laughable statement from his book "Shaggy God" (page 2): "The famous naturalist and researcher of Primorye, L. Kaplanov, mentions cases of a successful tiger attack on a brown bear. The Amur tiger is the bear's only real rival in strength and agility. However, reading the literature more carefully, you gradually come to the conclusion that the opposite happens much more often."... What??!! Now, which imaginary or fantasy literature did Krechmar allegedly "read" which showed this?? In which fantasy world? Was he hallucinating while he wrote that nonsense? There's not a single reliable case, in the last 35 years of scientific field research, of a brown bear killing even a little tiger cub. Nor have any rangers or hunters found any cases of brown bears killing any tigers during this time period. Whereas, there are NUMEROUS modern day accounts (1992 - 2024) of tigers attacking, killing and eating brown bears, mostly adult bears. So what the hell is Krechmar saying? Funny how Krechmar ignored all the TONS of cases of tigers killing and eating brown bears from numerous other biologists, zoologists, researchers, and in scientific studies. And also ignored the fact that the Amur tiger purposefully hunts the brown bear to eat as a food source. Why doesn't Krechmar acknowledge all these well established scientific facts? Even the most hardcore bear fanatics out there, acknowledge the fact that there are far more cases of tigers killing brown bears, the opposite is extremely rare. This is simple common knowledge that is well known among ALL Russian experts, biologists, scientists, rangers, hunters, locals, and the lay person. And yet, Krechmar states that the "literature" shows that there are "much more" cases of brown bears killing tigers (which history, evidence & field research shows its extremely rare) than the other way around. Is this a joke?? How can a biologist write that with a straight face and not laugh? Not only that, Krechmar has blatantly contradicted himself before. Some years ago, he said adult male tigers and adult male brown bears are both "equal" and neither dominates the other in a fight, then in 2021, he states: "I will also extend the speculative line and say that a large tiger has little chance against a large bear". So which one is it? He also said his opinion is 'speculative'. Which says it all. Like Sysoev, Krechmar has never found any shred of evidence, or reported a single case of even the largest male brown bears fighting, contesting, or defeating an adult male tiger. Nothing. Just like Sysoev, his opinion is isolated and baseless and goes against the general consensus of Russian experts who live and work in the Primorye and Khabarovsk regions. It is a fact, that most old and modern day Russian experts favor the tiger. John Vaillant's statements and take on Amur tigers vs Brown bears on video and in his book, also confirms this. So should we reject what Vaillant and majority of Russian biologists, zoologists, rangers, and hunters said, and accept the baseless, isolated and speculative opinions of Sysoev and Krechmar? Yes, Krechmar talks with hunters, but so do ALL biologists and rangers. Even most Russian hunters favor the tiger. Biologist Rukovsky interviewed 42 local, experienced hunters of the Primorsky Krai, about fights between tigers and brown bears, and in the reported statistics, the tiger dominated the brown bear in fights (winning 11-2). Krechmar or Sysoev have never reported such statistics or evidence that supports their opinions. It's all speculations and guesswork. American naturalist, Joseph Kullman also talked with hunters of the Primorsky Krai, and even in his experience, the hunters testified that the tiger is more often the winner, and also hunts the brown bear. We see a consistent pattern, and consistency is key. Vast majority of experienced authorities debunk and refute Sysoev and Krechmar's opinions and false assumptions. Then, again, we have the recent statement of Olga Krasnykh, who lives and works in the Primorye region, and works and talks with various Russian scientists, biologists and rangers. She also stated that based on the battle signs in the snow, examined by scientists, the tiger is the dominant animal and also reduces the brown bear populations in that region. Just like Vaillant's view, and most Russian experts views and testimonies, Krasnykh's statement just further asserts and confirms the Amur tigers superiority and dominance over the Ussuri brown bear. The vast majority of information, data, accounts, and expert testimonies speaks for itself. Conclusion: Krechmar, in all his many years in the taiga, never found a single case of a brown bear killing any tiger (adult male, tigress, juveniles, cubs), nothing. He has zero evidence. There's also not a single documented fight statistic that supports the views and opinions of Krechmar or Sysoev. All fight statistics and reports favor the tiger. Krechmar also had no problem writing blatant lies and misinformation in his book, just so the brown bear looks better than the tiger, which is ridiculous, and only further confirms that his opinion is completely worthless, biased and unreliable. He's also contradicted his views on male tigers vs male brown bears, which just destroys his credibility even more. All in all, judging by Krechmar's blatant lies and contradictory opinion, its safe to say that he has a clear bias and preference for bears. Not surprising though, as he is a bear enthusiast/biologist that solely specializes in studying bears. 
APEX
Three informative and well-written posts about interactions between Amur tigers, Himalayan black bears and Ussuri brown bears. I don't doubt they were appreciated by those interested in the way Amur tigers and bears coexisting in the Russian Far East interact. Before discussing your posts, a few words about the post in which I adressed the administrator of 'Domain of the bears' and some of his members. In the past weeks, I talked to a number of professionals, including developers of (web)sites, owners, moderators of (large) public platforms and a few lawyers. All of them told me a lack of training and knowledge, and, as a result, a lack of understanding, selective reading, preference, dismissals of those involved in peer-reviewed documents, misinformation, hate and insult are more or less common ingredients in many contributions and discussions. It's typical for the way many people interact these days. There are, however, (legal) ways to address (some of) these problem. I'll discuss them in a future post. I recently visited the site mentioned above. All quiet on the western front, one could say, meaning nothing changed. I did, however, find a thread created by a new member in the section 'General Discussions'. In 'Beyond the Bear and Tiger: a well deserved tribute', 'fantasticstruggle788' posted about (the life and work of) a number of Russian zoologists, biologists, naturalists and hunters. All of them,as you know, published about interactions between Amur tigers and bears in the Russian Far East. I'm referring to K.G. Abramov (zoologist, 1883-1961), his son, V.K. Abramov (biologist, 1936-2004), L.G. Kaplanov (zoologist, 1910-1943), E.F. Bromley (zoologist, 1906-1982), S.P. Kucherenko (hunter-biologist, 1927-2009), N.N. Rukovsky (hunter and candidate of biological sciences, 1919), V.P. Sysoev (game-manager and writer, 1911-2011), N.A. Baikov (army officer, naturalist and writer, 1875-1958), S.I. Ognev (zoologist and biologist, 1886-1951), E.N. Matyushkin (zoologist and biologist, 1941-2003), V.G. Heptner (zoologist, 1901-1975) and V.G. Sokolov (zoologist, 1928-1998). The thread also has a post about Jim Corbett (1875-1955). Every post has a list of publications. My advice is to visit the thread. Two more remarks. One is you can't contact the administrator of another forum to tell him what you think about his creation or (some of) the members of his forum. The reason is it could be perceived as an, indirect, attempt to speak on behalf of the administrators of Wildfact. You're a member, not one of the administrators. Two is it is, in my opinion, all but pointless to contact those who have different ideas about issues you're interested in. You know most members of forums have outspoken ideas. You're not a missionary, but a member of a forum created to inform those interested about the natural world. Our aim is good information, not something else. BROBEAR I noticed your, somewhat indirect, invitation to join your community in order to discuss issues we're interested in. I, politely, decline. One reason is my aim is good information, not something else (referring to discussions). Two is I want to invest my time in the forum I created with Sanjay. As to your post in which you discuss (the effects of) your background (education). Although raised in what most would consider to be (relative) poverty, I, educationwise, went all the way. This to say I know a bit about both worlds. And they really are two very different worlds. When you visit a university, you read a lot. You also learn how to conduct research, how to report and in what way the results of research have to be (can be) interpreted. It depends, to keep it short, on a lot of factors, meaning there are few absolutes. It's important to remember to ask (yourself) questions before getting to a decision. They have to be answered. And then there's research. Every researcher has a specific goal and uses an accepted method to answer a specific question (hypothesis), but methods can be applied in different ways and not every researcher takes rules of conduct as serious as those who defined them (also referring to those who created new dimensions in the rule department and decided to keep silent about their decision). When you got to an answer, try to debunk it. Not once, but more than once. In the end, you'll end up with a quite reliable result. Does this way of training have a result after years of investing? The answer, to a degree, is affirmative, but there are many exceptions. Also remember there's a difference between training and other factors to consider (background, personality, circumstances and money too). Meaning it depends. If you read a document or book written by someone with a good training and the intention to accurately describe a situation or a specific, say, animal, it's still up to you. In the end, it always depends on the eye of the beholder. Why is it so many consider Corbett a reliable reporter? And why is it a book written by a man with a proper training and as much experience isn't if the picture he paints is a bit different from expectation? The Russian zoologists, biologists, naturalists and hunters featuring in the thread created by your new member (see above) are as experienced as Corbett, if not more so. All of them were sincere men who invested decades trying to get to a bit of knowledge the hard way. They took a lot of time to report about the results of their quest, only to be dismissed out of hand by those guided by preconceived ideas many years later. Think about it. In the end, it doesn't depend on training and status, but, in that order, on intentions and decisions. Sound decisions, not affected by factors like preference, outlook or an agenda. In society, all of those contributing, training or no training, are important. All of them have to decide all day, every day. They try to live up to expectation. In spite of that, all know about mistakes. Mistakes that, at times, can have terrible consequences. Who has the most responsible job? The one driving a city bus all day every day or a medical doctor visited by those affected by a disease? And who, apart from the victim, will suffer when a mistake is made? The bus driver still haunted by the child he didn't see or the medical doctor who ignored the obvious signs of a disease? Meaning it isn't about training in the end. It's about good intentions and trying to get to sound interpretations and decisions all the time everywhere. Mistakes will always be there, but there a difference between a mistake made in complicated circumstances and a mistake based on an unsound interpretation of a situation. The second one is a result of a deliberate choice, whereas the first is a result of factors one can never ever control. What I'm saying is it's up to you each time. Training is a factor to consider, but in the end there's individual responsability. You know there's a difference between an average newspaper report and a book or a (peer-reviewed) document. Newspaper reports today not seldom are a result of some kind of selection (referring to the influence of politics on the media), whereas a book written by someone who invested many years trying to get to a bit of knowledge and insight about a specific topic isn't. It always depends on the individual.
I posted this recent interview of Pavel Fomenko back in March, 2022. Which was part of the "Tiger Educational Program". But unfortunately, the video was in Russian with no English subtitles translations. I did, however, get Pavel Fomenko's words accurately translated by a Russian poster I know.
Now a YouTube channel named "BIL" has uploaded the video of Pavel Fomenko's interview with full English subtitles. In this video, Fomenko talks about tigers vs bears, the tiger's weaponry, hunting methods, and other interesting behavior. Why are Tigers called the "Kings of the Taiga"? In the video (7:24 mark) the reporter asks Fomenko, "Tell me why are tigers called the kings of the taiga?". Pavel Fomenko says, because in nature, there is a (ecological) pyramid and at the top stands a specialized (apex) predator, and everything (all other animals) below it. "So there is a king there, a king at the top", he says. The entire structure and stability below (health state of tiger prey species & habitat) depend on how steadily the tiger stands at the top, he says. He adds, "that is why we need the tiger, one of the most important elements of the biocenosis, one of the most important elements of the wild nature of the Russian Far East." The Amur tiger is the undisputed apex predator and dominates the ecosystem of the Ussuri taiga, hence its title "King" and "Lord" of the taiga. Hunting Methods & Weaponry At 3:20 in the video, Fomenko talks about the tigers weaponry and hunting methods. He says the tigers claws are sharp and curved, designed for grabbing their prey, whereas bears have dull, blunt claws. This is also noticeable on tree scratches and marks. The tiger's scratches and marks are sharper (deeper) than a bear's scratches, who has blunt claws, thus a bear inflicts less damage. Fomenko says there are several methods of killing for a tiger. In some cases, the tiger bites the top of the neck, and in some cases, the tiger bites the bottom of the neck. And with such bites, the tiger bites off arteries, and even the cervical spine is bitten through. At 5:38 mark, he also mentions the incident of the famous tiger "Uporny" who was killed by another tiger in the Khabarovsk region. Fomenko had to examine this dead tiger, and said "it was creepy". He states: "A tiger, with its teeth, its eyes, its claws, its power, is a real killing machine, and should be treated as such. Its a machine, a killing apparatus." Who is Stronger, a Tiger or a Bear? At 8:25 in the video, the reporter asks Pavel Fomenko, who is stronger, a tiger or a bear? Fomenko states: "Judging by the fact that I quite often find bear claws in tiger excrement, here is your answer to who is stronger." Fomenko then adds that tiger vs bear fights do happen, but quite rarely. But, of course, the tiger hunts bears for a tasty, fatty steak, he says. Tigers Killing Bears and Sleeping in their Dens At 10:15 in the video, Fomenko is asked where do tiger families (tigress with cubs) live? Are they looking for dens, caves, fallen trees? Fomenko says that tigers are unpretentious, they live and sleep wherever they feel comfortable. They can sleep in old bear dens, and even in new bear dens. Its mentioned by the reporter and Fomenko, that tigers will even pull bears out of their dens, kill and eat them, and then sleep in the killed bears dens. So the tigress finds food (bears) and shelter for her cubs at the same time. By doing this, a male tiger also gets to eat one of his favorite foods (bears) and finds a comfy place to sleep. https://vestiprim.ru/news/ptrnews/120691...usk-4.html All episodes: https://vestiprim.ru/programs/tiger-educ...l-program/ Pavel Fomenko is a field biologist, scientist, ranger, game warden, forensic specialist, and a renowned leading tiger expert who is the Chief coordinator of the rare species department of the Amur branch of WWF Russia. He lives in the forest among the tigers and dedicates his life to protecting and studying Amur tigers, tracking poachers, and monitoring tiger numbers. He's also a surgeon who performs intensive operations on injured Amur tigers. Fomenko is no doubt, one of the greatest Amur tiger experts and 'protectors' of our time. https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/ru...ns-to-work https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/ti...-detective Pavel Fomenko, "The Tiger Protector of Russia":
APEX
Another good post. Much appreciated! I saw the interview with English subtitles just after it was (re)posted at YouTube a few days ago. Same for the other videos. I also read the articles. It was very good to find out he recovered from the injuries he sustained when he suddenly found himself between a captured tigress and her cub. Some years ago, there was quite a discussion about tiger 'Uporny'. The young adult male was doing quite well after rehab. He tried his luck in different districts, settled down, mated with a tigress and then met with fate. I remember the photograph of Pavel during the autopsy. He was shocked to see the results of what seemed to have been an execution. Those interested in wild Amur tigers know their numbers, largely as a result of the efforts of people like Pavel Fomenko, slowly increased. Today, there could be over 700 Amur tigers in the Russian federation and northeasern China. They've also been seen in some districts in North Korea. Although things, in this respect, seem to be going quite well, few realize wild tigers often struggle to make ends meet. Recent information from the Anyuisky National Park (referring to the period 2015-2022) suggests adults with a territory often seem able to cope with hardship (referring to the near local extinction of wild boars as a result of a disease), but youngsters not seldom pay. In the Anyuisky National Park, Gotvansky noticed tigers up to 2 years of age at times stayed together to cope with the situation. Some tigresses lost all cubs, at times even more than once. Even when they survive a lean year, young males in particular face many problems. In the Anyuisky National Park, they occupy the less productive fringes for years. In that period, they have to learn how to avoid adult males, adult bears and humans. Poaching still is a very real problem in remote districts seldom visited by rangers and biologists. So are adult male tigers. Tiger 'Uporny' is just one example of what can happen when young males try to find a territory. As to the info about tigers and bears you posted. I'll respond in detail in a future post. In this post, the aim is to underline there's a significant difference between 'bears' in general and large adult males (of both bear subspecies). There's enough reliable information to conclude Amur tigers consider bears up to about their own size as a potential source of food. Although the info you posted confirms male Amur tigers even hunt adult male Himalayan black bears, one has to remember incidents of this nature seem to be few. As far as I can see, it depends. In some districts, tigers habitually hunt bears, whereas they don't in others. It could depend on the time of year, although individuality and gender also seem to be factors. Tiger 'Uporny', who was collared, hunted Himalayan black bears when he was released from rehab, but the male tigers in the Anyuisky National Park, apart from a few exceptions, didn't. That is to say, Gotvansky, although he found the remains of juvenile Himalayan black bears every now and then, never found a brown bear killed by a tiger in the period 2015-2022. This also means size (referring to tigers) can be excluded as a factor. Here's a short (0:23) video showing an encounter between male tiger 'Zeus' and a male Himalyan black bear recently posted at YouTube (by 'Pallas's Cat): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jfiQ5ebF5w At the start of the video, it seemed the bear was preparing for a clash. The tiger, however, left the trail right in front of him and defecated a few yards from, and in full view of, the bear. As far as I can see, the tiger told him he had entered his territory. In spite of this violation, there was no follow-up. At the end of the video, however, the bear left the trail and started to climb the hill. When defecating, the tiger didn't watch the bear. He only saw his back, meaning the tiger didn't fear, and respect, him. A bit of an insult, but the bear didn't take it personal. Meaning not every encounter between males will result in animosity, let alone a life and death struggle. It depends. On factors we're not aware of. Individuality could be one of them. Although he was quite tall, the bear seemed to be a youngish adult. Had they met before? For now, I'd say relations between tigers and bears are quite complex. They've lived in close proximity for thousands of years. During this period, they learned to tolerate each other. In the videos I watched, I never saw a lot of animosity. The tigress pushing the young male Ussuri brown bear most probably did so for a very good reason and the bear seemed to agree. The bear driving the tigress from a kill (referring to another recent video I saw on YouTube) apparently decided the tigress wasn't prepared to defend the kill. Was it the same bear male tiger 'Zeus' encountered on the trail? I don't know, but the videos I saw and the articles I read suggest (adult) tigers and bears found a way to get along most of the time. But all bets are off when the circumstances change. And then there's, in the end, individuality. Some male tigers will hunt bears at every occasion. My guess is most bears know about him and try to avoid problems. And when brown bears enter the romantic season, tigers avoid problems. The information you posted is reliable. It says tigers win most fights with 'bears' (referring to clashes near kill sites). It also says tigers, in some seasons and districts, habitually hunt bears. While I agree some of these bears, as you said, were quite 'large', bear posters have a point when they say solid evidence of large male brown bears killed by male tigers in an open fight is lacking (referring to peer-reviewed documents only). That, however, doesn't mean tigers avoid a clash with an adult male Ussuri brown bear. It also doesn't mean adult male brown bears have the best chance in a fight, as those interested in bears suggest. Most of those who know about (interactions between) tigers and brown bears (referring to rangers, hunters and biologists) think it's the other way round. I don't doubt they have good reasons to get to that conclusion, but it's a fact serious fights between adult males of both species are few and far between, suggesting the margins could be very small. Too small to get to a conclusion. (10-02-2024, 11:24 AM)peter Wrote: APEX Peter, that video you posted of the male tiger 'Zeus' and male Himalayan black bear "confrontation" is a fake video. That's two different videos merged into one. Adult male Himalayan black bears, in general, are terrified of male tigers because male tigers habitually hunt and eat them. Many biologists have stated this. Sergey Kolchin even said 'large' bears are afraid of very fresh trails of tigers (left 1-2 hours ago). Even a large male Himalayan black bear would never nonchalantly stand in front of an adult male tiger like that. And an adult male tiger would never just calmly defecate and casually walk away from a bear in his territory. In general, whenever adult male (even large males) Himalayan black bears sense a tiger's presence or encounter a tiger, they immediately flee up trees to save themselves from tiger predation. If that bear had actually confronted the male tiger 'Zeus', I have no doubt, that 'Zeus' would have attacked, killed and eaten him. Himalayan bears are killed and eaten by tigers all the time. They're common tiger prey. I have posted plenty of information on this. The male tiger 'Zeus' was at the spot some time before, marking his territory, the bear arrived some weeks or months later. You can see the bear sniffing the ground, sensing the tiger's presence before, understood this is dangerous tiger territory, and immediately left the area. Original video (notice the trees in the background. In the bear footage, all the green foliage is mostly gone, in the tiger footage, there's lush green foliage everywhere): We also have this recent video of an adult (appears to be male) brown bear fleeing from a tigress. Experts suggested that the tigress returned to her kill, found the brown bear scavenging on her kill, and chased him out of the area. Biologists Dale Miquelle and Ivan Seryodkin were both contacted about this case. Both said, although the bear doesn't look "large", it was an adult brown bear being chased by the tigress. Notice the thumbnail, the bear clearly looks larger and more massive than the tigress: I agree that relations between tigers and bears are quite complex. No doubt. However, its also a fact that bears are an important food source for tigers, and are regularly hunted and eaten by tigers, particularly male tigers. Although some tigresses and young tigers are also active bear-hunters. According to the Siberian Tiger Project biologists and research: "Bears are of great importance in the diet of tigers, second only to wild boar and red deer." Male Amur tigers are far more aggressive, violent, and hostile towards bears, than Bengal tigers are towards sloth bears. The killing frequency is not comparable between the two subspecies. While Bengal tigers can and do, at any frequency, hunt and kill sloth bears, they primarily prefer to hunt large ungulate prey like gaur, buffalo, sambar, etc. Whereas Amur tigers love to eat bears, so much so, that its normal behaviour for some Amur tigers to prefer hunting and eating bears, instead of ungulate prey animals. (Viktor Storozhuk, 2017). Peter, cases of Amur tigers killing and eating adult male Himalayan black bears are very common. I posted so much information on this. There are countless cases. Biologist Tkachenko repeatedly found the remains of adult Himalayan black bears (all genders & ages) in tiger excrements and carcasses of adult male black bears killed by tigers. All biologists agree that Himalayan black bears, of any sex and age, are common prey of tigers, and even the largest male black bears weighing 200 - 250 kg, are hunted and killed by tigers. (Kerley, Aramilev, Kolchin, 2011, 2021, 2022). As to your remarks about "peer-reviewed" cases of large male brown bears killed in "open fights" by tigers. Honestly, this is a very lame excuse used by bear posters. You know why? because they know, finally, there is an undeniable, confirmed and very recent account of a male tiger that killed a large (bigger) adult male brown bear in a head-on fight. This time we have plenty of hard evidence on video (Kill-site, partially-eaten bear carcass, badly trampled snow & grass, broken bushes, tiger & bear tracks, tiger resting place, location). The battle-ground was thoroughly examined by a team of seasoned forest rangers and game experts. Rangers who are highly trained, experienced, and qualified to track and judge the traces of wild animals. The same rangers like Yuri Kya, who know the animals intimately, and spend their entire lives in the taiga, and dedicate their lives to protecting and conserving the wild animals. The same rangers like Yuri Kya and his team, who even biologists and scientists highly respect and even rely on. This case was verified by the Amur Tiger Center (scientific organization), 'Reserved Amur Region' (scientific organization), the Governor of the Khabarovsk territory, TV news reporter, and both Mikhail Milizhek and Yuri Kya confirmed this account via 2 emails. All the original reports, plus the 15+ additional reports, all 100% corroborate Yuri Kya's words and conclusion. What more evidence and confirmation do we need? There's plenty of solid, undeniable confirmation of this incident. This whole scientific "peer-reviewed" account nonsense, is just a pathetic excuse used by bear posters, so they can desperately find some way to dismiss and reject this confirmed account. Its ridiculous. Peter, they're coping, and trying to cope very hard. Going by this "peer-reviewed" argument and logic, bear posters should just reject and dismiss all the factual accounts reported by renowned hunters, naturalists like Jim Corbett, Sanderson, F.C. Hicks, Kesri Singh, Burton, etc. Because their accounts were not "peer-reviewed" in "scientific documents". But they don't, bear posters happily accept and believe NUMEROUS old hunter/naturalist stories and accounts from the 20th century, of bear interactions and fights with other animals. How come?? Look at the blatant double standards and hypocrisy. Shall we just call all of Jim Corbett's stories and accounts 'BS' and fairy tales because they weren't scientifically "peer-reviewed" accounts?? There are many TONS of 100% reliable and factual accounts of wild animal interactions/predations reported by numerous biologists, scientists, researchers, rangers, hunters, in news reports, blogs, articles, and books from all over the world, none of which were "peer-reviewed" accounts, so does that mean all those accounts and stories written and reported by biologists, rangers, zoologists and experienced hunters are unreliable or false? Of course, not. It would be outright stupidity to just blindly reject these accounts just because they weren't "peer-reviewed". Once again, the "peer-reviewed" argument is nothing but a lame excuse to deny factual accounts that doesn't suit some bear posters agenda and preconceived ideas. And lastly, BROBEAR, FYI, the brown bear carcass wasn't already "frozen". After Odyr killed the large male brown bear, there was a snowfall that happened, which Yuri Kya specifically mentioned in his email. So it wasn't an "already frozen" bear carcass. Odyr had killed the bear a day before, then a snowfall happened, hence why the killed adult male brown bear carcass was covered in snow! You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You're just spouting pure misinformation as always. Its laughable that you "think" such a highly respected, experienced, trained, and qualified seasoned professional like Yuri kya and his team, are not competent enough to know what a tiger kill looks like or what a large male brown bear looks like. Its utterly hilarious. And your lame excuses and complete denial of reality and hard evidence is just unbelievable!!
APEX
a - About the video I posted Before responding to your post, I decided for some background information on the video in my last post. It's a bit of a detour, but the story, I think, is interesting. You may remember my post about the way of interacting of the administrator of 'Domain of the bears' and some members. I said I would contact a few people who know a few things about forums, problems and solutions. Most of those I contacted informed me about (the reach and effect of) legal measures. Two actually read quite a few posts. They told me they got interested along the way and invested quite a bit of time. Although they know next to nothing about (interactions between) tigers and bears in the Russian Far East, they do know a few things about information, interaction and problems that often erupt during exchanges. Both, to be complete, do not know each other. It was quite remarkable they got to similar conclusions about the (causes of the) problems I referred to. Apart from that, they quickly noticed the main differences between posters interested in good information and others. They concluded you and 'fantasticstruggles788' in particular are the main contributors in the department of information. The difference between you and 788, according to them, is you largely focus on recent information, whereas 788 posts about books written by Russian hunter-biologists, zoologists and naturalists published, say, 50-100 years ago. Another difference is 788 never adds comments and conclusions, whereas you do. Apart from reading, those I contacted saw quite a number of videos. Both know a few things about videos and manipulation. One of them sent me a few links to videos that, in his opinion, had been manipulated. His advice was to add the link of the most recent video he found in a new post and to write a comment. He asked me to write a post today. This afternoon, we met. He explained why he asked me to write a post (with the link to the video) immediately and added he was prepared to go for a bet regarding your response. We talked about the forum for some time. He was surprised at the number of views and added Wildfact has commercial value. When discussing a number of future scenarios, he suddenly smiled. He said he thought you would be the only one to respond and go against me within 24 hours after I posted and he was right. What I'm saying is your posts speak for themselves. So much so, a visitor was able to predict your response. Did I immediately notice the video was fake? Negative. I did, however, see a vital part (referring to the moment the tiger and the bear met) was missing. Apart from that, I noticed the bear didn't seem to respond to the proximity of the tiger. Strange, as no Himalayan black bear in his right state of mind, no matter it's age and size, would enable an adult male Amur tiger to get within striking distance. Every Himalayan black bear knows he's on the menu of just about every Amur tiger. It's also very unlikely a wild male Amur tiger would waste a golden opportunity and decide for private matters, completely ignoring the bear. Meaning 'Pallas', who posted the video on YouTube, is involved in manipulation without a shadow of doubt. His conclusion (referring to the man I contacted) is you're one of the few interested in good information. It's also clear you're prepared to oppose everyone involved in selling crap, meaning you're independent. This means those interested in bears are wrong in all respects and that could have been the intention. A big compliment, I think. b - About your last posts I could take my time to discuss the information you posted, but it speaks for itself in all respects. You answered most questions. Excellent work. Does this mean you covered all of it? The answer is not quite. Explanation. There are two sources about tigers and bears in the Russian Far East. The first consists entirely of books written by Russian hunter-biologists, zoologists and naturalists. These books were difficult to find and to read (referring to the language). This is the reason the book of V. Mazak ('Der Tiger', 1983) was so popular for a long time. In the early eighties of the last century, I visited East-Berlin. I found and bought 'Säugetiere der Sowjet-Union' (referring to the German translation published in 1980). In 1992, the Siberian Tiger Project started. I consider all books, articles and peer-reviewed documents published in the period 1992-2024 as the second source of information. It didn't take me long to conclude there are significant differences between books published half a century ago and those published in the last decades. In order to find out why, I tried to find English translations of books written by Russian biologists in the period 1900-1992. Dr. P. van bree assisted, but it wasn't easy. Just before the turn of the century, I joined AVA. Some of the posters interested in bears posted paragraphs and tables from the books I was after, but they used the information to underline a point made meaning it was difficult to get to a conclusion. In the end, I lost my interest. The never ending animosity and the hack contributed to the decision to quit, but the main reason was a lack of good information and the manipulative attitude of posters interested in bears. c - About a new thread created by 'fantasticstruggle788' (a new member of 'Domain of the bears') A few weeks ago, in the heart of bear country ('Domain of the bears'), I found (parts of the) books I was after. The new member of Brobears forum, 'fantasticstruggle788', posted English translations of paragraphs and chapters of books written by Russian biologists published before 1992 (including Kostoglod). The new member of 'Domain of the bears' is able in Russian. As he selected paragraphs and chapters in which relations between Amur tigers and bears are described in detail, those interested now have the opportunity to read them. I read some of his contributions and got to the same conclusion as a few decades ago. I mean those who published, say, half a century ago seem to contradict those who published in the last decades. Could it be reality is a mixed bag, did tigers and bears interact in a different way half a century ago or are we missing something? My advice is to visit the thread he started ('The Ussuri brown bear 1950-2000'). When you meet '788', tell him his contributions are much appreciated. Let us know what you think. (10-03-2024, 06:25 AM)peter Wrote: APEX I've already seen that thread "The Ussuri brown bear 1950-2000" and read the information published by biologist Kostoglod on Amur tiger-Brown bear relations. Kostoglod published information about serious fights between Amur tigers and brown bears, and as usual, like most Russian experts, after analyzing the data, Kostoglod concluded and reported that the tiger is more often the winner in a fight. This part was completely ignored by the bear posters on that forum. Kostoglod stated: "The outcome of the struggle is more often in favor of the tiger, but there are also quite a few cases where the (brown) bear managed to kill the opponent." What kind of tigers perished in fights with brown bears? Kostoglod stated: "Since in such encounters it is more likely that weakened individuals, including injured ones, will perish, it is possible that the activity of the brown bear helps eliminate potential man-eaters from the tiger population." This was also noted by the Siberian Tiger Project biologists in their scientific research papers. Both these statements from Kostoglod were ignored by bear posters. According to Kostoglod, its most likely that brown bears killed already weakened, sick, or injured tigers in those fights, not healthy tigers. Even from Kostoglod's data and testimony, the tiger is more often the winner, which is consistent with most Russian biologists, zoologists, naturalists, rangers and hunters testimonies. Kostoglod's fight statistics and data is in favor of the tiger. And Peter, I have to do this, because BroBear doesn't cease to spread blatant lies and misinformation about Yuri Kya's account. And he's also calling you out on this. BroBear You said: "My question to the "top cat" at WF is, why do you not investigate further the story of Odyr and bears (plural)? Such as the man who identified the 3-year old bear (carcass) and the man on-site who mentioned that the footprints don't match the size of the dead bear?" Now read this slowly and very carefully Brobear, and let it sink in deep.... There was NO MAN "on-site" who mentioned that the footprints "don't match" the size of the dead bear! And there was NO MAN who "identified" the so-called "3-year old bear" carcass! What the hell are you talking about?? This is a blatant lie and outright misinformation. Where's the evidence? Statements? News reports? I already debunked that clearly fake (completely isolated) email, allegedly from "Mikhail Milezhik" that claims the dead brown bear was a "3 year old" named "Misha". Absolute nonsense! There's NOT A SINGLE other source, shred of evidence, report, nothing, that corroborates with that alleged, (fake) email which was fabricated by bear fans. BroBear, how come not a single other source (and there are plenty) mentions that the killed brown bear was a "3 year old" bear named "Misha"?? If that was true, it would have certainly been reported in at least several different sources. But there's absolutely NONE, zero! ... there's only that completely isolated, dubious, alleged "email". How come? And stop blatantly lying about this imaginary man "on-site" who "mentioned" that the foot-prints "don't match" the size of the dead bear. That's a bold-faced lie. Didn't you see the video?? The only people at the kill-site were Yuri Kya and his team! Yuri Kya, who's the expert authority, and his team definitively concluded based on all the hard, undeniable evidence at the kill-site which they thoroughly examined, that the male tiger 'Odyr' indeed slaughtered a large, "impressive-sized" adult male brown bear in a fierce, prolonged fight. Yuri Kya saw signs and clear traces of a violent struggle all over the forest clearing! He was even able to determine where the fight began! (next to the forest index sign). BroBear, why do you deliberately ignore all these facts? Why do you constantly lie and put your own made-up twist on accounts? Why are you inventing imaginary people who were at the kill-site?? Its pathetic. Again, watch the video very carefully, Yuri Kya specifically mentions that they "trampled the glade during the fight" and when he see's the killed brown bear carcass up-close, he clearly says "impressive bear". Now read, BroBear... read very carefully and understand:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author He see's the killed brown bear, and says: "Impressive bear". Where is the imaginary "3 year old bear" carcass?? Or is Yuri Kya and his team blind or hallucinated??  *This image is copyright of its original author Why was the killed adult male brown bear carcass covered in snow? Well, BroBear, hear straight from the horse's mouth yourself: Dear Yuri Kya: "I found news in your reserve. The tiger killed the brown bear. The bear has a front paw callus width of 18 cm. Tell me, is this measured correctly? If correct, this is an adult male brown bear. This is the answer the WCS animal expert would like to know. Is this an adult male brown bear?" Yuri Kya: "Yes, indeed, there was such a case when our tiger caught a male brown bear. I confirm the width of the front heel. Unfortunately, it was not possible to accurately "trace" (track) the entire chain of events of the tiger hunt, at that time there was a heavy snowfall. But on the spot there was a lot of broken bushes and withered grass trampled down. The predator was scared away from the prey by all-terrain caterpillar vehicles, later it returned to the remains of the bear more than once. Later, I traced his trail, but the tiger received minor damage to its paw." "Earlier, I repeatedly found the claws of bears in the feces of tigers, as well as traces of their successful hunts, some of which they got from dens in winter." Yuri Kya's email: https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/6040...b670_t.jpg There you go!! After Odyr killed the large male brown bear, there was a snowfall that happened! Not my words, but Yuri Kya's words! Now you know why the bear carcass was covered in snow when they got there. 2nd email from Mikhail Milezhik Mikhail Milizhek already verified Yuri Kya's account and confirmed that the tiger Odyr indeed killed an adult brown bear with a palm callus width of 18 cm: Q: I saw in your reserve the news that the northeast tiger killed an adult brown bear, which said that he had a palm width of 18 centimeters. Is it true? Thank you, I wish you all the best! Mikhail Milezhik：Hello, yes the information is valid. Mikhail Milezhik's email: https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/6040...f78c_t.jpg Brobear, why do you deliberately ignore these 2 emails?? How come neither Yuri Kya or Mikhail Milezhik mentioned that it was a "3 year old" bear killed by Odyr?? How come they both confirmed that the tiger Odyr killed an adult male brown bear with a palm callus width of 18 cm? And the video (above) speaks for itself and clearly exposes the nonsense you constantly spew about this case, period. Confirmation of this account: Brobear, as I mentioned in my previous post which you (obviously) completely ignored, the account of the male tiger Odyr hunting and killing the large adult male brown bear was verified by the Amur Tiger Center (scientific organization), 'Reserved Amur Region' (scientific organization), the Governor of the Khabarovsk region, TV news reporter, and both Mikhail Milezhik and Yuri Kya confirmed this account via 2 emails. All the original reports, plus the additional 15+ reports, all 100% corroborate Yuri Kya's statements and conclusions. So yes, this is an indisputable, undeniable and confirmed account of a large, full-grown adult male brown bear falling prey to a smaller tiger. Whether you like it or not. There was plenty, I repeat....plenty of hard evidence at the kill-site, which made Yuri Kya and his team of seasoned experts, conclusively determine that the male tiger 'Odyr' that they've known for many years (very intimately), indeed hunted, killed, and ate a large, healthy, full-grown adult male brown bear with a palm callus width of 18 cm. Hence why this case was confirmed and reported on LIVE TV news, by the Governor, and confirmed by the biologists & employees working for two scientific organizations - Amur Tiger Center and 'Reserved Amur Region'. The video, countless (ALL) reports, TV News, confirmation from TWO scientific organizations, and the 2 emails, completely debunk and expose that clearly FAKE and ISOLATED "email", which claims the killed bear was a "3 year old" named "Misha". And lastly, BroBear, you're a compulsive liar who loves to spread blatant lies and misinformation about tiger-bear relations, you invent imaginary characters who don't exist, and you love to put your own made-up spin on accounts and ridicule highly reputable and experienced biologists, rangers, zoologists, hunters, and other authorities, just because they often say facts that doesn't suit your fanatical agenda and preconceived ideas. Your whole extremely biased opinion on tiger-brown bear relations, is solely based on guesswork, wild speculations, false empty claims, and zero evidence. Add to this, you even love to ridicule and dismiss expert authorities who are a million times more experienced, qualified, and knowledgeable than you are. That says it all. |
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