There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
Future potentially looks bleak for the Mjejane Pride.
There's been a significant amount of outrage over this to the point that Jock Safari took down their post about it.
(08-15-2024, 09:42 PM)Mwk85 Wrote: Future potentially looks bleak for the Mjejane Pride.
There's been a significant amount of outrage over this to the point that Jock Safari took down their post about it.
Unbelievable, but not surprising. Then to delete the post, instead of trying to explain the logic behind your decision that has so many outraged, of course some are going to believe something nefarious is at play. Not to mention, leaving that young male behind, alone, where his fate is all but sealed.
Marakele, he died from injuries sustained in a fight with a younger male, believed to be Ukuva, one of the sons of Tembe that was relocated to the area some weeks back.
I'm not sure who would be in charge of fixing those fences. These questions need to be addressed to those responsible for doing that then. Instead, we are blaming Jock Safari, when they might not be in charge of that. They could be trying to give these lions a second chance, otherwise, the next time they go out, they will most likely not survive, we all know that. I've seen the posts which were immediately putting the lodge on the defensive.
Two year old males can survive on their own. Some will do so better than others, but to state that it's a death sentence for him, is a big exaggeration. Some males are kicked out of their natal prides before that age or around two, and they sink or swim. Would it have been better for him to go with a brother or two? Absolutely, but we don't know why this happened. He might not have been around the other pride members that were already past the fenced area. What would you have them do? Track him down and send him up north with his family? And if the family all gets poached, at least he won't have to suffer that fate. God forbid that happens, but maybe some, if not all, will be luckier than the other lions relocated there in the past. Hopefully, things have improved since then.
(08-19-2024, 06:03 AM)Cath2020 Wrote: I'm not sure who would be in charge of fixing those fences. These questions need to be addressed to those responsible for doing that then. Instead, we are blaming Jock Safari, when they might not be in charge of that. They could be trying to give these lions a second chance, otherwise, the next time they go out, they will most likely not survive, we all know that. I've seen the posts which were immediately putting the lodge on the defensive.
Two year old males can survive on their own. Some will do so better than others, but to state that it's a death sentence for him, is a big exaggeration. Some males are kicked out of their natal prides before that age or around two, and they sink or swim. Would it have been better for him to go with a brother or two? Absolutely, but we don't know why this happened. He might not have been around the other pride members that were already past the fenced area. What would you have them do? Track him down and send him up north with his family? And if the family all gets poached, at least he won't have to suffer that fate. God forbid that happens, but maybe some, if not all, will be luckier than the other lions relocated there in the past. Hopefully, things have improved since then.
I am not sure anyone is specifically "blaming" Jock Safari, but there is no question this was handled poorly, whomever was in charge. There is a history with moving lions up north, and there is a reason it currently has so few lions to begin with. To then delete all posts, and not even respond to the valid, and politely asked, questions of the many who are concerned is only going to cause people to believe that something terrible is happening. I do not believe that is the first response of any of the concerned, but what are they left to feel, when those involved will not even respond, and deleted their own posts on the matter? Then to leave the young male, on top of it.
It is no secret that many of these adjacent properties are death pits for countless animals, like Sandrigham for instance just look at what happened to Giraffe Male when he crossed onto it (I do not know for a fact that he was poached, but there was clear concern by many as soon as he crossed over to that property, due to it's reputation, and then a few weeks later he is declared deceased), the property owners cut the fences themselves, attract the animals to cross the openings, even dragging carcasses at times (ala Cecil) and then sell tags to rich dentists and the like. Those people love having a famous animal on their wall, it is a source of pride for them. The more of an online presence an animal has, the more they can charge to get someone a shot at them.
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08-21-2024, 05:04 PM( This post was last modified: 08-21-2024, 05:09 PM by Tr1x24 )
(08-19-2024, 05:21 AM)Mwk85 Wrote: Marakele, he died from injuries sustained in a fight with a younger male, believed to be Ukuva, one of the sons of Tembe that was relocated to the area some weeks back.
His opponent was treated..not sure how is this "fair" (unless he killed him straight in 1vs1)..
So, these reserves are bringing "new" younger males to the reserves (who eventually kill resident famous males) to bring diversety in the reserve?
Thats a big "f.... u.." for the resident male, who is face of the reserve..
Yea i know they have a lot of males in these reserves with little space, but stil.
(08-19-2024, 05:21 AM)Mwk85 Wrote: Marakele, he died from injuries sustained in a fight with a younger male, believed to be Ukuva, one of the sons of Tembe that was relocated to the area some weeks back.
His opponent was treated..not sure how is this "fair" (unless he killed him straight in 1vs1)..
So, these reserves are bringing "new" younger males to the reserves (who eventually kill resident famous males) to bring diversety in the reserve?
Thats a big "f.... u.." for the resident male, who is face of the reserve..
Yea i know they have a lot of males in these reserves with little space, but stil.
What happened to Marakele is very unfortunate but I don't believe that these reserves want to witness a bloodletting and they treated Ukuva to mitigate the results of the conflict.
Translocating this young male into the reserve is to bring genetic diversity as well as to regulate population dynamics by ousting the resident male. Addo Elephant National Park translocated lions in such a way that birth rates were relatively low to keep the density of lions manageable. In the absence of intraspecific competition, lions can breed like rabbits and the prey population will struggle to keep up with such growth in lion numbers, not to mention the other predators that share the same habitat as lions.
Does this mean Marakele deserved to die? Absolutely not. But I believe they were right in translocating Ukuva for the above reasons.
08-21-2024, 11:53 PM( This post was last modified: 08-21-2024, 11:59 PM by BA0701 )
(08-21-2024, 08:27 PM)Rabubi Wrote:
(08-21-2024, 05:04 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(08-19-2024, 05:21 AM)Mwk85 Wrote: Marakele, he died from injuries sustained in a fight with a younger male, believed to be Ukuva, one of the sons of Tembe that was relocated to the area some weeks back.
His opponent was treated..not sure how is this "fair" (unless he killed him straight in 1vs1)..
So, these reserves are bringing "new" younger males to the reserves (who eventually kill resident famous males) to bring diversety in the reserve?
Thats a big "f.... u.." for the resident male, who is face of the reserve..
Yea i know they have a lot of males in these reserves with little space, but stil.
What happened to Marakele is very unfortunate but I don't believe that these reserves want to witness a bloodletting and they treated Ukuva to mitigate the results of the conflict.
Translocating this young male into the reserve is to bring genetic diversity as well as to regulate population dynamics by ousting the resident male. Addo Elephant National Park translocated lions in such a way that birth rates were relatively low to keep the density of lions manageable. In the absence of intraspecific competition, lions can breed like rabbits and the prey population will struggle to keep up with such growth in lion numbers, not to mention the other predators that share the same habitat as lions.
Does this mean Marakele deserved to die? Absolutely not. But I believe they were right in translocating Ukuva for the above reasons.
I understand their reasoning, for why they are moving these cats, and believe they were entirely well intended, it is the locations they are being moved to that causes some to question their thinking. Just look at what happened to the three Addo boys, that was a full on tragedy, especially the first male that was killed. Some things are entirely unpredictable, these are wild big cats after all, but potential conflict with other lions in the direct vicinity can surely be taken into account. If I were to dump a new and unknown lion(s) into Western Sector SS, I would be doing so with the understanding that there will be conflict, and there is a very good chance that lions would die as a result, either the new lion(s) or the existing, who call WS SS home, either way. I would, in fact, be very surprised if that didn't happen.
I totally support their attempting to keep numbers balanced, in fact if there was an agency or group that was doing that in a safer way, I would have no issue donating to them, as they clearly would have a shared goal. However, I am one that believes that nature is capable of taking care of things herself. A century ago, there was nobody moving animals from one location to another, and the numbers across all species remained in balance, things just worked, not only were the prey animals in more abundance, but so were the lions. I just believe that all of the problems that exist for all wildlife, are the direct result of action(s) taken by humans, and just like government, I do not know if humans are capable of fixing what they themselves have broken, how about letting nature take the wheel for awhile. .
We were recently discussing the numbers of lions in SS, pre-Mapogo, and it seems those numbers have never recovered to what they were. I may be critical of certain actions taken by people on the ground, but it is largely because of certain things that appear obvious to us on the outside, and if that is the case why does it seem to be less obvious to some of those on the inside. The recent relocation of the Mjejane Pride is another perfect example, did we not learn after moving the last Mpondo male and his partner to the same general area? Not to mention the leaving behind of the young male, which I believe is only going to end in one way for him. The situation of lions disappearing and being killed and attacked by humans in the Mara is another example. It seems to us on the outside, if they merely enforced the laws that exist, stop the herders from cutting down fences and driving their herds into the lions territory, it would stop a lot of what is currently happening. It is not like anyone is even asking for new laws, just asking that the laws already on the books be enforced.
I am not being critical of you at all, my friend, I know 100% that you and I are on the same side, and we share in our hopes for these animals, so, please do not take this post that way. I do, however, believe this is a really good conversation to have, and an important one, perhaps if we can all put our collective heads together, we may be able to come up with some positive ideas, which could be helpful for all involved, humans and wild creatures alike. Such things can only come from people having a well intended conversation.
(08-21-2024, 08:27 PM)Rabubi Wrote: What happened to Marakele is very unfortunate but I don't believe that these reserves want to witness a bloodletting and they treated Ukuva to mitigate the results of the conflict.
Translocating this young male into the reserve is to bring genetic diversity as well as to regulate population dynamics by ousting the resident male. Addo Elephant National Park translocated lions in such a way that birth rates were relatively low to keep the density of lions manageable. In the absence of intraspecific competition, lions can breed like rabbits and the prey population will struggle to keep up with such growth in lion numbers, not to mention the other predators that share the same habitat as lions.
Does this mean Marakele deserved to die? Absolutely not. But I believe they were right in translocating Ukuva for the above reasons.
I understand that, but still i think they need to "think" about the future of resident male aswell.
I dont have much info about particular reserve ( land size, number of prides and males? ), but if resident male has no other options, yet to face new male, that kinda doesnt look fair.
I mean theres a chance they link together, but small one.
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(08-19-2024, 05:21 AM)Mwk85 Wrote: Marakele, he died from injuries sustained in a fight with a younger male, believed to be Ukuva, one of the sons of Tembe that was relocated to the area some weeks back.
His opponent was treated..not sure how is this "fair" (unless he killed him straight in 1vs1)..
So, these reserves are bringing "new" younger males to the reserves (who eventually kill resident famous males) to bring diversety in the reserve?
Thats a big "f.... u.." for the resident male, who is face of the reserve..
Yea i know they have a lot of males in these reserves with little space, but stil.
What happened to Marakele is very unfortunate but I don't believe that these reserves want to witness a bloodletting and they treated Ukuva to mitigate the results of the conflict.
Translocating this young male into the reserve is to bring genetic diversity as well as to regulate population dynamics by ousting the resident male. Addo Elephant National Park translocated lions in such a way that birth rates were relatively low to keep the density of lions manageable. In the absence of intraspecific competition, lions can breed like rabbits and the prey population will struggle to keep up with such growth in lion numbers, not to mention the other predators that share the same habitat as lions.
Does this mean Marakele deserved to die? Absolutely not. But I believe they were right in translocating Ukuva for the above reasons.
I understand their reasoning, for why they are moving these cats, and believe they were entirely well intended, it is the locations they are being moved to that causes some to question their thinking. Just look at what happened to the three Addo boys, that was a full on tragedy, especially the first male that was killed. Some things are entirely unpredictable, these are wild big cats after all, but potential conflict with other lions in the direct vicinity can surely be taken into account. If I were to dump a new and unknown lion(s) into Western Sector SS, I would be doing so with the understanding that there will be conflict, and there is a very good chance that lions would die as a result, either the new lion(s) or the existing, who call WS SS home, either way. I would, in fact, be very surprised if that didn't happen.
I totally support their attempting to keep numbers balanced, in fact if there was an agency or group that was doing that in a safer way, I would have no issue donating to them, as they clearly would have a shared goal. However, I am one that believes that nature is capable of taking care of things herself. A century ago, there was nobody moving animals from one location to another, and the numbers across all species remained in balance, things just worked, not only were the prey animals in more abundance, but so were the lions. I just believe that all of the problems that exist for all wildlife, are the direct result of action(s) taken by humans, and just like government, I do not know if humans are capable of fixing what they themselves have broken, how about letting nature take the wheel for awhile. .
We were recently discussing the numbers of lions in SS, pre-Mapogo, and it seems those numbers have never recovered to what they were. I may be critical of certain actions taken by people on the ground, but it is largely because of certain things that appear obvious to us on the outside, and if that is the case why does it seem to be less obvious to some of those on the inside. The recent relocation of the Mjejane Pride is another perfect example, did we not learn after moving the last Mpondo male and his partner to the same general area? Not to mention the leaving behind of the young male, which I believe is only going to end in one way for him. The situation of lions disappearing and being killed and attacked by humans in the Mara is another example. It seems to us on the outside, if they merely enforced the laws that exist, stop the herders from cutting down fences and driving their herds into the lions territory, it would stop a lot of what is currently happening. It is not like anyone is even asking for new laws, just asking that the laws already on the books be enforced.
I am not being critical of you at all, my friend, I know 100% that you and I are on the same side, and we share in our hopes for these animals, so, please do not take this post that way. I do, however, believe this is a really good conversation to have, and an important one, perhaps if we can all put our collective heads together, we may be able to come up with some positive ideas, which could be helpful for all involved, humans and wild creatures alike. Such things can only come from people having a well intended conversation.
No offense taken whatsover, my friend. These are indeed very good conversations to have.
It is true that relocating the young male lion should have been informed by the location of the other lions in the reserve. I can't think of any plausible reason other than maybe relocating Marakele was just not feasible logistics and cost-wise so they still introduced the young male and hoped for the best. I honestly don't know.
I agree with you on letting Mother Nature taking the wheel as it is something I too have always strongly believed in and continue to believe in. However these smaller reserves require more pretty intensive management because they are isolated and thus large animals can't naturally disperse far and wide like in the Kruger, Okavango and Serengeti-Mara ecosystems. That's why translocations are necessary because leaving everything to Nature in this context would result in serious inbreeding. This is why wildlife corridors are so critical to long-term conservation, especially here in South Africa where most of our reserves are small and isolated. The only large connected wilderness areas here are Kruger, Kgalagadi (Kalahari) and the Limpopo Valley areas.
I also agree with you on the need to just enforce the existing laws for conservation because as it is the laws are solid on paper.
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(08-19-2024, 05:21 AM)Mwk85 Wrote: Marakele, he died from injuries sustained in a fight with a younger male, believed to be Ukuva, one of the sons of Tembe that was relocated to the area some weeks back.
His opponent was treated..not sure how is this "fair" (unless he killed him straight in 1vs1)..
So, these reserves are bringing "new" younger males to the reserves (who eventually kill resident famous males) to bring diversety in the reserve?
Thats a big "f.... u.." for the resident male, who is face of the reserve..
Yea i know they have a lot of males in these reserves with little space, but stil.
What happened to Marakele is very unfortunate but I don't believe that these reserves want to witness a bloodletting and they treated Ukuva to mitigate the results of the conflict.
Translocating this young male into the reserve is to bring genetic diversity as well as to regulate population dynamics by ousting the resident male. Addo Elephant National Park translocated lions in such a way that birth rates were relatively low to keep the density of lions manageable. In the absence of intraspecific competition, lions can breed like rabbits and the prey population will struggle to keep up with such growth in lion numbers, not to mention the other predators that share the same habitat as lions.
Does this mean Marakele deserved to die? Absolutely not. But I believe they were right in translocating Ukuva for the above reasons.
I understand their reasoning, for why they are moving these cats, and believe they were entirely well intended, it is the locations they are being moved to that causes some to question their thinking. Just look at what happened to the three Addo boys, that was a full on tragedy, especially the first male that was killed. Some things are entirely unpredictable, these are wild big cats after all, but potential conflict with other lions in the direct vicinity can surely be taken into account. If I were to dump a new and unknown lion(s) into Western Sector SS, I would be doing so with the understanding that there will be conflict, and there is a very good chance that lions would die as a result, either the new lion(s) or the existing, who call WS SS home, either way. I would, in fact, be very surprised if that didn't happen.
I totally support their attempting to keep numbers balanced, in fact if there was an agency or group that was doing that in a safer way, I would have no issue donating to them, as they clearly would have a shared goal. However, I am one that believes that nature is capable of taking care of things herself. A century ago, there was nobody moving animals from one location to another, and the numbers across all species remained in balance, things just worked, not only were the prey animals in more abundance, but so were the lions. I just believe that all of the problems that exist for all wildlife, are the direct result of action(s) taken by humans, and just like government, I do not know if humans are capable of fixing what they themselves have broken, how about letting nature take the wheel for awhile. .
We were recently discussing the numbers of lions in SS, pre-Mapogo, and it seems those numbers have never recovered to what they were. I may be critical of certain actions taken by people on the ground, but it is largely because of certain things that appear obvious to us on the outside, and if that is the case why does it seem to be less obvious to some of those on the inside. The recent relocation of the Mjejane Pride is another perfect example, did we not learn after moving the last Mpondo male and his partner to the same general area? Not to mention the leaving behind of the young male, which I believe is only going to end in one way for him. The situation of lions disappearing and being killed and attacked by humans in the Mara is another example. It seems to us on the outside, if they merely enforced the laws that exist, stop the herders from cutting down fences and driving their herds into the lions territory, it would stop a lot of what is currently happening. It is not like anyone is even asking for new laws, just asking that the laws already on the books be enforced.
I am not being critical of you at all, my friend, I know 100% that you and I are on the same side, and we share in our hopes for these animals, so, please do not take this post that way. I do, however, believe this is a really good conversation to have, and an important one, perhaps if we can all put our collective heads together, we may be able to come up with some positive ideas, which could be helpful for all involved, humans and wild creatures alike. Such things can only come from people having a well intended conversation.
No offense taken whatsover, my friend. These are indeed very good conversations to have.
It is true that relocating the young male lion should have been informed by the location of the other lions in the reserve. I can't think of any plausible reason other than maybe relocating Marakele was just not feasible logistics and cost-wise so they still introduced the young male and hoped for the best. I honestly don't know.
I agree with you on letting Mother Nature taking the wheel as it is something I too have always strongly believed in and continue to believe in. However these smaller reserves require more pretty intensive management because they are isolated and thus large animals can't naturally disperse far and wide like in the Kruger, Okavango and Serengeti-Mara ecosystems. That's why translocations are necessary because leaving everything to Nature in this context would result in serious inbreeding. This is why wildlife corridors are so critical to long-term conservation, especially here in South Africa where most of our reserves are small and isolated. The only large connected wilderness areas here are Kruger, Kgalagadi (Kalahari) and the Limpopo Valley areas.
I also agree with you on the need to just enforce the existing laws for conservation because as it is the laws are solid on paper.
Those corridors are essential, for sure. There is one leading into the Crater, and it has allowed cats from the outside into the crater, allowing greater diversity, There is a really interesting study that was done on the crater, and the impact of inbreeding, it is a fascinating read. I will link to the document at the bottom of my response. One of the key takeaways was that the sperm count in the males was slowly dropping, over decades. They were able to trace back all of the lions in the crater to three specific females, if memory serves, who were introduced in the mid 1900s, following a plague of some sort that wiped out a lot of the lion population in the crater.
08-23-2024, 03:16 PM( This post was last modified: 08-23-2024, 04:11 PM by Rabubi )
(08-22-2024, 06:30 PM)BA0701 Wrote:
(08-22-2024, 01:16 PM)Rabubi Wrote:
(08-21-2024, 11:53 PM)BA0701 Wrote:
(08-21-2024, 08:27 PM)Rabubi Wrote:
(08-21-2024, 05:04 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(08-19-2024, 05:21 AM)Mwk85 Wrote: Marakele, he died from injuries sustained in a fight with a younger male, believed to be Ukuva, one of the sons of Tembe that was relocated to the area some weeks back.
His opponent was treated..not sure how is this "fair" (unless he killed him straight in 1vs1)..
So, these reserves are bringing "new" younger males to the reserves (who eventually kill resident famous males) to bring diversety in the reserve?
Thats a big "f.... u.." for the resident male, who is face of the reserve..
Yea i know they have a lot of males in these reserves with little space, but stil.
What happened to Marakele is very unfortunate but I don't believe that these reserves want to witness a bloodletting and they treated Ukuva to mitigate the results of the conflict.
Translocating this young male into the reserve is to bring genetic diversity as well as to regulate population dynamics by ousting the resident male. Addo Elephant National Park translocated lions in such a way that birth rates were relatively low to keep the density of lions manageable. In the absence of intraspecific competition, lions can breed like rabbits and the prey population will struggle to keep up with such growth in lion numbers, not to mention the other predators that share the same habitat as lions.
Does this mean Marakele deserved to die? Absolutely not. But I believe they were right in translocating Ukuva for the above reasons.
I understand their reasoning, for why they are moving these cats, and believe they were entirely well intended, it is the locations they are being moved to that causes some to question their thinking. Just look at what happened to the three Addo boys, that was a full on tragedy, especially the first male that was killed. Some things are entirely unpredictable, these are wild big cats after all, but potential conflict with other lions in the direct vicinity can surely be taken into account. If I were to dump a new and unknown lion(s) into Western Sector SS, I would be doing so with the understanding that there will be conflict, and there is a very good chance that lions would die as a result, either the new lion(s) or the existing, who call WS SS home, either way. I would, in fact, be very surprised if that didn't happen.
I totally support their attempting to keep numbers balanced, in fact if there was an agency or group that was doing that in a safer way, I would have no issue donating to them, as they clearly would have a shared goal. However, I am one that believes that nature is capable of taking care of things herself. A century ago, there was nobody moving animals from one location to another, and the numbers across all species remained in balance, things just worked, not only were the prey animals in more abundance, but so were the lions. I just believe that all of the problems that exist for all wildlife, are the direct result of action(s) taken by humans, and just like government, I do not know if humans are capable of fixing what they themselves have broken, how about letting nature take the wheel for awhile. .
We were recently discussing the numbers of lions in SS, pre-Mapogo, and it seems those numbers have never recovered to what they were. I may be critical of certain actions taken by people on the ground, but it is largely because of certain things that appear obvious to us on the outside, and if that is the case why does it seem to be less obvious to some of those on the inside. The recent relocation of the Mjejane Pride is another perfect example, did we not learn after moving the last Mpondo male and his partner to the same general area? Not to mention the leaving behind of the young male, which I believe is only going to end in one way for him. The situation of lions disappearing and being killed and attacked by humans in the Mara is another example. It seems to us on the outside, if they merely enforced the laws that exist, stop the herders from cutting down fences and driving their herds into the lions territory, it would stop a lot of what is currently happening. It is not like anyone is even asking for new laws, just asking that the laws already on the books be enforced.
I am not being critical of you at all, my friend, I know 100% that you and I are on the same side, and we share in our hopes for these animals, so, please do not take this post that way. I do, however, believe this is a really good conversation to have, and an important one, perhaps if we can all put our collective heads together, we may be able to come up with some positive ideas, which could be helpful for all involved, humans and wild creatures alike. Such things can only come from people having a well intended conversation.
No offense taken whatsover, my friend. These are indeed very good conversations to have.
It is true that relocating the young male lion should have been informed by the location of the other lions in the reserve. I can't think of any plausible reason other than maybe relocating Marakele was just not feasible logistics and cost-wise so they still introduced the young male and hoped for the best. I honestly don't know.
I agree with you on letting Mother Nature taking the wheel as it is something I too have always strongly believed in and continue to believe in. However these smaller reserves require more pretty intensive management because they are isolated and thus large animals can't naturally disperse far and wide like in the Kruger, Okavango and Serengeti-Mara ecosystems. That's why translocations are necessary because leaving everything to Nature in this context would result in serious inbreeding. This is why wildlife corridors are so critical to long-term conservation, especially here in South Africa where most of our reserves are small and isolated. The only large connected wilderness areas here are Kruger, Kgalagadi (Kalahari) and the Limpopo Valley areas.
I also agree with you on the need to just enforce the existing laws for conservation because as it is the laws are solid on paper.
Those corridors are essential, for sure. There is one leading into the Crater, and it has allowed cats from the outside into the crater, allowing greater diversity, There is a really interesting study that was done on the crater, and the impact of inbreeding, it is a fascinating read. I will link to the document at the bottom of my response. One of the key takeaways was that the sperm count in the males was slowly dropping, over decades. They were able to trace back all of the lions in the crater to three specific females, if memory serves, who were introduced in the mid 1900s, following a plague of some sort that wiped out a lot of the lion population in the crater.
Thank you for sharing, my friend. This is a fascinating read indeed.
A very similar situation developed in the Hluhluwe-Imfolozi Park (KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa) where the lion population there (+- 100) during the 1900s to early 2000s was descended from one pride. During the 90s, signs of inbreeding were observed and so the reserve translocated lions from Pilansberg and Madikwe to the existing population in an act known as 'genetic rescue".
Also, there is another study where the genetic variation of various lion populations was assessed (here is the link: https://link.springer.com/article/10.100...013-0453-3) and what particularly caught my attention was the following:
"some historic lion translocations have clearly brought together different lineages, as is evident in LCU 49. Both the mt-DNA haplotype (h) and microsatellite data (Fig. 5) of Sabi Sands lions suggest they originated in the Southwestern region, possibly Botswana."
Now, if I'm not mistaken, these translocations happened when the Sabi Sands was still fenced off from the GKNP and obviously private reserves want the best-looking and most robust specimens. Given how well-renowned Botswana lions are for their size, such translocations make sense.
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(08-19-2024, 05:21 AM)Mwk85 Wrote: Marakele, he died from injuries sustained in a fight with a younger male, believed to be Ukuva, one of the sons of Tembe that was relocated to the area some weeks back.
His opponent was treated..not sure how is this "fair" (unless he killed him straight in 1vs1)..
So, these reserves are bringing "new" younger males to the reserves (who eventually kill resident famous males) to bring diversety in the reserve?
Thats a big "f.... u.." for the resident male, who is face of the reserve..
Yea i know they have a lot of males in these reserves with little space, but stil.
What happened to Marakele is very unfortunate but I don't believe that these reserves want to witness a bloodletting and they treated Ukuva to mitigate the results of the conflict.
Translocating this young male into the reserve is to bring genetic diversity as well as to regulate population dynamics by ousting the resident male. Addo Elephant National Park translocated lions in such a way that birth rates were relatively low to keep the density of lions manageable. In the absence of intraspecific competition, lions can breed like rabbits and the prey population will struggle to keep up with such growth in lion numbers, not to mention the other predators that share the same habitat as lions.
Does this mean Marakele deserved to die? Absolutely not. But I believe they were right in translocating Ukuva for the above reasons.
I understand their reasoning, for why they are moving these cats, and believe they were entirely well intended, it is the locations they are being moved to that causes some to question their thinking. Just look at what happened to the three Addo boys, that was a full on tragedy, especially the first male that was killed. Some things are entirely unpredictable, these are wild big cats after all, but potential conflict with other lions in the direct vicinity can surely be taken into account. If I were to dump a new and unknown lion(s) into Western Sector SS, I would be doing so with the understanding that there will be conflict, and there is a very good chance that lions would die as a result, either the new lion(s) or the existing, who call WS SS home, either way. I would, in fact, be very surprised if that didn't happen.
I totally support their attempting to keep numbers balanced, in fact if there was an agency or group that was doing that in a safer way, I would have no issue donating to them, as they clearly would have a shared goal. However, I am one that believes that nature is capable of taking care of things herself. A century ago, there was nobody moving animals from one location to another, and the numbers across all species remained in balance, things just worked, not only were the prey animals in more abundance, but so were the lions. I just believe that all of the problems that exist for all wildlife, are the direct result of action(s) taken by humans, and just like government, I do not know if humans are capable of fixing what they themselves have broken, how about letting nature take the wheel for awhile. .
We were recently discussing the numbers of lions in SS, pre-Mapogo, and it seems those numbers have never recovered to what they were. I may be critical of certain actions taken by people on the ground, but it is largely because of certain things that appear obvious to us on the outside, and if that is the case why does it seem to be less obvious to some of those on the inside. The recent relocation of the Mjejane Pride is another perfect example, did we not learn after moving the last Mpondo male and his partner to the same general area? Not to mention the leaving behind of the young male, which I believe is only going to end in one way for him. The situation of lions disappearing and being killed and attacked by humans in the Mara is another example. It seems to us on the outside, if they merely enforced the laws that exist, stop the herders from cutting down fences and driving their herds into the lions territory, it would stop a lot of what is currently happening. It is not like anyone is even asking for new laws, just asking that the laws already on the books be enforced.
I am not being critical of you at all, my friend, I know 100% that you and I are on the same side, and we share in our hopes for these animals, so, please do not take this post that way. I do, however, believe this is a really good conversation to have, and an important one, perhaps if we can all put our collective heads together, we may be able to come up with some positive ideas, which could be helpful for all involved, humans and wild creatures alike. Such things can only come from people having a well intended conversation.
No offense taken whatsover, my friend. These are indeed very good conversations to have.
It is true that relocating the young male lion should have been informed by the location of the other lions in the reserve. I can't think of any plausible reason other than maybe relocating Marakele was just not feasible logistics and cost-wise so they still introduced the young male and hoped for the best. I honestly don't know.
I agree with you on letting Mother Nature taking the wheel as it is something I too have always strongly believed in and continue to believe in. However these smaller reserves require more pretty intensive management because they are isolated and thus large animals can't naturally disperse far and wide like in the Kruger, Okavango and Serengeti-Mara ecosystems. That's why translocations are necessary because leaving everything to Nature in this context would result in serious inbreeding. This is why wildlife corridors are so critical to long-term conservation, especially here in South Africa where most of our reserves are small and isolated. The only large connected wilderness areas here are Kruger, Kgalagadi (Kalahari) and the Limpopo Valley areas.
I also agree with you on the need to just enforce the existing laws for conservation because as it is the laws are solid on paper.
Those corridors are essential, for sure. There is one leading into the Crater, and it has allowed cats from the outside into the crater, allowing greater diversity, There is a really interesting study that was done on the crater, and the impact of inbreeding, it is a fascinating read. I will link to the document at the bottom of my response. One of the key takeaways was that the sperm count in the males was slowly dropping, over decades. They were able to trace back all of the lions in the crater to three specific females, if memory serves, who were introduced in the mid 1900s, following a plague of some sort that wiped out a lot of the lion population in the crater.
Thank you for sharing, my friend. This is a fascinating read indeed.
A very similar situation developed in the Hluhluwe-Imfolozi Park (KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa) where the lion population there (+- 100) during the 1900s to early 2000s was descended from one pride. During the 90s, signs of inbreeding were observed and so the reserve translocated lions from Pilansberg and Madikwe to the existing population in an act known as 'genetic rescue".
Also, there is another study where the genetic variation of various lion populations was assessed (here is the link: https://link.springer.com/article/10.100...013-0453-3) and what particularly caught my attention was the following:
"some historic lion translocations have clearly brought together different lineages, as is evident in LCU 49. Both the mt-DNA haplotype (h) and microsatellite data (Fig. 5) of Sabi Sands lions suggest they originated in the Southwestern region, possibly Botswana."
Now, if I'm not mistaken, these translocations happened when the Sabi Sands was still fenced off from the GKNP and obviously private reserves want the best-looking and most robust specimens. Given how well-renowned Botswana lions are for their size, such translocations make sense.
Excellent, thank you for sharing that link.
I am all for the translocation of lions, especially males, for the very reasons you mentioned. So often do we discuss hoping x males will stay in Sabi Sands, to bring a new bloodline into the mix, the recent Southern BDMs being a recent example of those discussions. I just wish that a safer, more thoroughly vetted method could be employed when we translocate these cats to minimize any negative impact on the existing population, as well as the translocated cats. These isolated populations, as you mentioned, are in danger of suffering long term effects, if it doesn't take place. This is a very thorough paper on the subject.
Taking Sabi Sands as an example. Prior to the 1993 removal of the fence between SS and Kruger, lions from Botswana were translocated into SS, but once those fences came down, those same animals have now been granted free movement between the reserves, diversifying the genetics of all of the cats in the region. Clearly that can only benefit the population as a whole. Prior to that decision, those populations could have been in trouble, had things continued as they were, in the same way it was beginning to affect Hluhluwe-Imfolozi Park.
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(08-19-2024, 05:21 AM)Mwk85 Wrote: Marakele, he died from injuries sustained in a fight with a younger male, believed to be Ukuva, one of the sons of Tembe that was relocated to the area some weeks back.
His opponent was treated..not sure how is this "fair" (unless he killed him straight in 1vs1)..
So, these reserves are bringing "new" younger males to the reserves (who eventually kill resident famous males) to bring diversety in the reserve?
Thats a big "f.... u.." for the resident male, who is face of the reserve..
Yea i know they have a lot of males in these reserves with little space, but stil.
What happened to Marakele is very unfortunate but I don't believe that these reserves want to witness a bloodletting and they treated Ukuva to mitigate the results of the conflict.
Translocating this young male into the reserve is to bring genetic diversity as well as to regulate population dynamics by ousting the resident male. Addo Elephant National Park translocated lions in such a way that birth rates were relatively low to keep the density of lions manageable. In the absence of intraspecific competition, lions can breed like rabbits and the prey population will struggle to keep up with such growth in lion numbers, not to mention the other predators that share the same habitat as lions.
Does this mean Marakele deserved to die? Absolutely not. But I believe they were right in translocating Ukuva for the above reasons.
I understand their reasoning, for why they are moving these cats, and believe they were entirely well intended, it is the locations they are being moved to that causes some to question their thinking. Just look at what happened to the three Addo boys, that was a full on tragedy, especially the first male that was killed. Some things are entirely unpredictable, these are wild big cats after all, but potential conflict with other lions in the direct vicinity can surely be taken into account. If I were to dump a new and unknown lion(s) into Western Sector SS, I would be doing so with the understanding that there will be conflict, and there is a very good chance that lions would die as a result, either the new lion(s) or the existing, who call WS SS home, either way. I would, in fact, be very surprised if that didn't happen.
I totally support their attempting to keep numbers balanced, in fact if there was an agency or group that was doing that in a safer way, I would have no issue donating to them, as they clearly would have a shared goal. However, I am one that believes that nature is capable of taking care of things herself. A century ago, there was nobody moving animals from one location to another, and the numbers across all species remained in balance, things just worked, not only were the prey animals in more abundance, but so were the lions. I just believe that all of the problems that exist for all wildlife, are the direct result of action(s) taken by humans, and just like government, I do not know if humans are capable of fixing what they themselves have broken, how about letting nature take the wheel for awhile. .
We were recently discussing the numbers of lions in SS, pre-Mapogo, and it seems those numbers have never recovered to what they were. I may be critical of certain actions taken by people on the ground, but it is largely because of certain things that appear obvious to us on the outside, and if that is the case why does it seem to be less obvious to some of those on the inside. The recent relocation of the Mjejane Pride is another perfect example, did we not learn after moving the last Mpondo male and his partner to the same general area? Not to mention the leaving behind of the young male, which I believe is only going to end in one way for him. The situation of lions disappearing and being killed and attacked by humans in the Mara is another example. It seems to us on the outside, if they merely enforced the laws that exist, stop the herders from cutting down fences and driving their herds into the lions territory, it would stop a lot of what is currently happening. It is not like anyone is even asking for new laws, just asking that the laws already on the books be enforced.
I am not being critical of you at all, my friend, I know 100% that you and I are on the same side, and we share in our hopes for these animals, so, please do not take this post that way. I do, however, believe this is a really good conversation to have, and an important one, perhaps if we can all put our collective heads together, we may be able to come up with some positive ideas, which could be helpful for all involved, humans and wild creatures alike. Such things can only come from people having a well intended conversation.
No offense taken whatsover, my friend. These are indeed very good conversations to have.
It is true that relocating the young male lion should have been informed by the location of the other lions in the reserve. I can't think of any plausible reason other than maybe relocating Marakele was just not feasible logistics and cost-wise so they still introduced the young male and hoped for the best. I honestly don't know.
I agree with you on letting Mother Nature taking the wheel as it is something I too have always strongly believed in and continue to believe in. However these smaller reserves require more pretty intensive management because they are isolated and thus large animals can't naturally disperse far and wide like in the Kruger, Okavango and Serengeti-Mara ecosystems. That's why translocations are necessary because leaving everything to Nature in this context would result in serious inbreeding. This is why wildlife corridors are so critical to long-term conservation, especially here in South Africa where most of our reserves are small and isolated. The only large connected wilderness areas here are Kruger, Kgalagadi (Kalahari) and the Limpopo Valley areas.
I also agree with you on the need to just enforce the existing laws for conservation because as it is the laws are solid on paper.
Those corridors are essential, for sure. There is one leading into the Crater, and it has allowed cats from the outside into the crater, allowing greater diversity, There is a really interesting study that was done on the crater, and the impact of inbreeding, it is a fascinating read. I will link to the document at the bottom of my response. One of the key takeaways was that the sperm count in the males was slowly dropping, over decades. They were able to trace back all of the lions in the crater to three specific females, if memory serves, who were introduced in the mid 1900s, following a plague of some sort that wiped out a lot of the lion population in the crater.
Thank you for sharing, my friend. This is a fascinating read indeed.
A very similar situation developed in the Hluhluwe-Imfolozi Park (KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa) where the lion population there (+- 100) during the 1900s to early 2000s was descended from one pride. During the 90s, signs of inbreeding were observed and so the reserve translocated lions from Pilansberg and Madikwe to the existing population in an act known as 'genetic rescue".
Also, there is another study where the genetic variation of various lion populations was assessed (here is the link: https://link.springer.com/article/10.100...013-0453-3) and what particularly caught my attention was the following:
"some historic lion translocations have clearly brought together different lineages, as is evident in LCU 49. Both the mt-DNA haplotype (h) and microsatellite data (Fig. 5) of Sabi Sands lions suggest they originated in the Southwestern region, possibly Botswana."
Now, if I'm not mistaken, these translocations happened when the Sabi Sands was still fenced off from the GKNP and obviously private reserves want the best-looking and most robust specimens. Given how well-renowned Botswana lions are for their size, such translocations make sense.
Excellent, thank you for sharing that link.
I am all for the translocation of lions, especially males, for the very reasons you mentioned. So often do we discuss hoping x males will stay in Sabi Sands, to bring a new bloodline into the mix, the recent Southern BDMs being a recent example of those discussions. I just wish that a safer, more thoroughly vetted method could be employed when we translocate these cats to minimize any negative impact on the existing population, as well as the translocated cats. These isolated populations, as you mentioned, are in danger of suffering long term effects, if it doesn't take place. This is a very thorough paper on the subject.
Taking Sabi Sands as an example. Prior to the 1993 removal of the fence between SS and Kruger, lions from Botswana were translocated into SS, but once those fences came down, those same animals have now been granted free movement between the reserves, diversifying the genetics of all of the cats in the region. Clearly that can only benefit the population as a whole. Prior to that decision, those populations could have been in trouble, had things continued as they were, in the same way it was beginning to affect Hluhluwe-Imfolozi Park.
I think the most ideal situation would be to translocate the new males into a reserve while relocating the resident male to another reserve (similar to Sylvester's story), however, translocations cost vast amounts of time, energy and resources so that option is unfeasible. If there is a more thoroughly vetted method for translocating animals I'm all for it but as things stand, conflicts of this nature and severity are an inherent risk that comes with translocating wildlife.
Speaking of lions translocated into the private reserves bordering Kruger, wasn't the Black Dam Male's father translocated from Namibia to Thornybush?
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Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia
