There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
Nothing was provided that isn't a) opinion (trainers) and b) drawing conclusions about intelligence based upon size of brain relative to body mass, which is merely re-stating the initial point.
I don't think you understand what objective criteria means.
Why do Tiger fans use Beatty when it suits them but dismiss him when he doesn't?
Selectively quoting trainers and even scientists without providing objective studies that are recognized as fair measures of intelligence does nothing but confirm your inherent bias.
(06-17-2014, 09:10 PM)Apollyon Wrote: Pckts:
"Other then having 30+ years of hands on expierence?
Come on, this is a guy who has every right to make that observation. It's like telling a mother of 3 that she has no idea who is her smartest child becasue she is not a expert in brain composition.
Of course she will know, she observes, raises them, sees their weaknesses and strengths, etc....
Similar sized animals, similar proportions, yet for some reason the Tiger has a 16% larger brain?
What fact or account do you have that backs anything you are trying to say?"
Trainers are highly biased...just like anyone else. You provided no objective criteria. It is quite likely that 'smarter' means 'easier to train'. Are Dogs smarter than Cats?
The larger brain size is a possible indication of greater intelligence. However it is certainly not definitive and, to my knowledge, difficult to show how this greater intelligence manifests itself.
Set aside the Lion and let's use the Leopard. As far as I know, the Leopard's brain is, proportionally, the same as the Lion. But, it is a solitary hunter and inhabits a wide variety of environments. What actions/behaviours differentiates the Tiger over the Leopard that would be an indication of superior intelligence?
As to my lack of evidence for my position...I never stated my position. I simply challenged yours.
Many trainers have said Lions are harder to train (than Tigers). Is this due to inferior intelligence or due to a different temperament. Which is more likely?
Regarding the statement in bold, you make a good point. At least with my experience with intelligent parrots, the smaller ones are just as smart as the larger one in terms of analytical intelligence (verbal ability on the other hand seems to be given to larger brains, with the exception of the budgie). The brain size to body proportions are about the same between these species. Thus, I believe that within a family (within cats, dogs, parrots, etc.), a smaller brain does not mean a less bright animal if it has the same brain to body proportion when compared to the larger brained animal.
Albeit, the brain to body proportions isn't the same between tigers and lions. Proportionately larger brains are linked to greater intelligence often (humans, birds are some exampels). Of course, there's much more to smarts than just size, but when sister species show signifant difference in proportionality, something is up as the evidence I've stated shows. The discrepancy can be explained in evolutionary terms. The tiger and lion separated very long ago. The tiger has one chain of evolution, while the lion, leopard, and jaguar fall in the other. I am not sure of any evidence for this, but you stated that leopards have proportionately equal brains to lions (which is reasonable). As a whole, the tiger is the odd one out from the big cat family, and this is explained by how early it's ancestors were seperated in my opinion.
Yes, I agree with the evolution separation of the Big Cats. While it is not unreasonable to speculate the Tiger is 'smarter' than the Lion, I know of no studies that have been used to test this hypothesis. I used the Leopard to show it lives in environments similar to both the Lion and Tiger but has a brain comparable (proportionally) to the Lion. If the argument is the Tiger's environment is more 'challenging' than the Lion's or that it is a solitary hunter, presumably this would apply to the Leopard.
It is likely as you mentioned, the other 3 Big Cats split off from the Tiger and are more similar to one another than to the Tiger. Perhaps they 'devolved' and lost some genetic information. Hard to say.
However, I do agree that the larger brain of the Tiger may indicate greater intelligence. At issue is: how to prove it?
(06-23-2014, 06:55 AM)'Apollyon' Wrote: Nothing was provided that isn't a) opinion (trainers) and b) drawing conclusions about intelligence based upon size of brain relative to body mass, which is merely re-stating the initial point.
I don't think you understand what objective criteria means.
Why do Tiger fans use Beatty when it suits them but dismiss him when he doesn't?
Selectively quoting trainers and even scientists without providing objective studies that are recognized as fair measures of intelligence does nothing but confirm your inherent bias.
Your "criteria" is not universal. It is rules that you are using to disregard actual statements that were made on intellegence.
The fact remains, these are big cat experts, one way or the other. They have far more right to make observations and their opinions hold water.
You can dismiss or try to change the "criteria" but at the end of the day, tigers have larger brains, they are observed to be smarter and that is the truth.
(06-23-2014, 07:42 PM)'Apollyon' Wrote: Yes, I agree with the evolution separation of the Big Cats. While it is not unreasonable to speculate the Tiger is 'smarter' than the Lion, I know of no studies that have been used to test this hypothesis. I used the Leopard to show it lives in environments similar to both the Lion and Tiger but has a brain comparable (proportionally) to the Lion. If the argument is the Tiger's environment is more 'challenging' than the Lion's or that it is a solitary hunter, presumably this would apply to the Leopard.
It is likely as you mentioned, the other 3 Big Cats split off from the Tiger and are more similar to one another than to the Tiger. Perhaps they 'devolved' and lost some genetic information. Hard to say.
However, I do agree that the larger brain of the Tiger may indicate greater intelligence. At issue is: how to prove it?
Just remember, the Leopard plays the same role in either place, (india or africa) and that is "2nd most dominate cat" so the requirements for brain power are probably the same. Tigers and lions are Apex in their enviroments, so the need for larger brain might be more. Lets also not forget that a lion has a pride (one large brain) and relys on that to hunt, while a tiger relies on it self and may need a larger brain for that. Also, tigers are a different sub species. The most different of the 4, and one of the oldest, so its had more time to evolve different and more adaptions. Like has been stated here already.
My 'criteria' is not my opinion. i'm asking for objective methods to measure intelligence between two animals. Trainers are providing their opinions based upon either observations of behaviour or speculation about what is required in the wild in terms of intelligence. However, they do not provide any evidence that could be understood as objective. They are entitled to their opinions and they may well be correct. But, until there are fair studies that can be described as objective and a fair assessment of intelligence we are left with opinions.
Re: Leopard. One would think that NOT being the Apex predator might require greater intelligence. Not only does the Leopard deal with the same environment as the Tiger, but it must also be cognizant of the whereabouts of the Tiger at all times. That, and other larger dangerous animals that the Tiger only has to pay limited attention to.
06-25-2014, 03:37 AM( This post was last modified: 06-25-2014, 03:42 AM by Pckts )
(06-25-2014, 02:13 AM)'Apollyon' Wrote: My 'criteria' is not my opinion. i'm asking for objective methods to measure intelligence between two animals. Trainers are providing their opinions based upon either observations of behaviour or speculation about what is required in the wild in terms of intelligence. However, they do not provide any evidence that could be understood as objective. They are entitled to their opinions and they may well be correct. But, until there are fair studies that can be described as objective and a fair assessment of intelligence we are left with opinions.
Re: Leopard. One would think that NOT being the Apex predator might require greater intelligence. Not only does the Leopard deal with the same environment as the Tiger, but it must also be cognizant of the whereabouts of the Tiger at all times. That, and other larger dangerous animals that the Tiger only has to pay limited attention to.
What methods?
What methods have you seen that would please you in admitting that tigers or smarter or not?
They sure do provide evidence, Dr. Antle speaking of tigers and lions, watching tigers actually analize surroundings, learning tricks or commands etc...
I don't know why you are disregarding expert opinions and eye witness accounts? Its not like you are going to get a Lion and Tiger to take the SAT's, so what would please you enough to make a statement on either side?
I mean, you have eye witness accounts and opinions, scientific fact on Brain size, so not sure what you're looking for.
Now onto the leopard, mine was simply a theory, there are many factors that could play in to why a leopard has the same sized brain as a lion in terms of relative to body size.
Once again, age of species, two completely different sub species, different roles in their environments, etc...
Also, the leopard plays the same role in either Africa or India.
2nd largest cat, must stay in the trees to survive and keep prey, must avoid larger predatory cats etc... All of which probably require the same amount of brain power. Lastly, the tiger is a completely different sub species from the remaining 3. Older, different lineage etc. It is the most different animal of the Panthera and adaptions always differ in any sub species, especially ones that are much older than others.
I think that no matter what, you are not going to change your mind. While you can be speculative all you want, just remember, you are offering up nothing that backs the lions being smarter than the Tiger, just disagreeing with actual evidence and opinions. That is all I will say about it.
=13px"But there's a compromise that comes with powerful =13pxjaws...smaller brains. =13pxGreg Erickson: There's something that's really interesting here =13pxif you look at these skulls. =13pxThe brain case is enormous on this little bobcat. =13pxAnd as these animals get bigger and bigger, we see that the brain case is really lagging behind. It's almost like these animals have sacrificed their brain power for brute strength. NARRATOR: The slight exception to this rule is the tiger. It has the same bite force as a lion, but on average, its brain is 16% bigger. Craig Saffoe: It's surprising to most people to find that the tiger's brain is actually bigger than the lion's because we often think of social animals as being so much more evolved and in some cases smarter than animals who live a solitary life-style. Bhagavan Antle: Based on my experience working with both lions and tigers, I see that tigers have a greater =13pxintelligence than the lions do. =13pxThey'll work out problems. They've got more focus. NARRATOR: Super cat needs brains as well as brawn if he's to be =13pxthe top predator. =13pxHe'll get the powerful jaws and slightly higher brain power =13pxof the tiger."
Here is the excerpt from Super Cat that gives Antles eye witness accounts of Tigers being smarter.
Until further research can provide conclusive evidence, it's all conjecture. Not disputing or supporting
any opinions. Some individuals may exhibit aspects of intelligence others lack. These are the facts.
06-25-2014, 09:59 PM( This post was last modified: 06-25-2014, 10:00 PM by Pckts )
(06-25-2014, 08:09 PM)'chaos' Wrote: Until further research can provide conclusive evidence, it's all conjecture. Not disputing or supporting
any opinions. Some individuals may exhibit aspects of intelligence others lack. These are the facts.
Since there is no "real" way to determine it and people will always play devil's advocate to try and back either side, I chose to believe eye witness accounts, brain size, and expert opinions. While all can be wrong, the likelihood of it is far less than if I chose to simply deny it because I had personal doubts.
People still deny evolution, while tons of evidence and proof exist, you will always be able to find some sort of "knit picky" argument to try and disprove it. I choose to believe it the same as I choose to believe tigers are smarter. But this choice is after looking at available evidence and learning facts the contributed to my decision.
06-25-2014, 11:50 PM( This post was last modified: 06-25-2014, 11:51 PM by tigerluver )
(06-25-2014, 09:59 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(06-25-2014, 08:09 PM)'chaos' Wrote: Until further research can provide conclusive evidence, it's all conjecture. Not disputing or supporting
any opinions. Some individuals may exhibit aspects of intelligence others lack. These are the facts.
Since there is no "real" way to determine it and people will always play devil's advocate to try and back either side, I chose to believe eye witness accounts, brain size, and expert opinions. While all can be wrong, the likelihood of it is far less than if I chose to simply deny it because I had personal doubts.
People still deny evolution, while tons of evidence and proof exist, you will always be able to find some sort of "knit picky" argument to try and disprove it. I choose to believe it the same as I choose to believe tigers are smarter. But this choice is after looking at available evidence and learning facts the contributed to my decision.
The brain case being exceptionally large is the most unbiased observation possible really. Again, just look at humans and other families. The species in that family with greater brain case size are more intelligent. There's no other purpose over having a proportionately larger brain if it won't be used.
Check Encephalization quotient. Tigers with bigger brains would have a greater quotient, and evidence shows a greater quotient is strongly correlated with greater intelligence.
06-26-2014, 07:17 AM( This post was last modified: 06-26-2014, 07:17 AM by peter )
(06-25-2014, 08:09 PM)'chaos' Wrote: Until further research can provide conclusive evidence, it's all conjecture. Not disputing or supporting
any opinions. Some individuals may exhibit aspects of intelligence others lack. These are the facts.
This could develop into a debate. Your turf, that is. That's why you was hired. Not expecting a homerun, but I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more than this.
Everything in nature is function. In predators in particular, anything resulting in excessive room or weight is lost energy. Big cats don't use their teeth to catch leeches and a big braincase wasn't needed to catch a three-legged deer. Brains, more than anything else, are energy-consuming and everyone who knows a bit about wild tigers says they's clever. Could be a result of their solitary way of life, but jaguars and leopards also don't like crowds and they, braincasewise, compare to lions. What is different about the tiger, apart from leaving the family so early? And why do hunters consider wild lions very intelligent as well? What's the difference between clever and clever?
06-26-2014, 07:19 AM( This post was last modified: 06-26-2014, 07:19 AM by peter )
(06-23-2014, 07:42 PM)'Apollyon' Wrote: Yes, I agree with the evolution separation of the Big Cats. While it is not unreasonable to speculate the Tiger is 'smarter' than the Lion, I know of no studies that have been used to test this hypothesis. I used the Leopard to show it lives in environments similar to both the Lion and Tiger but has a brain comparable (proportionally) to the Lion. If the argument is the Tiger's environment is more 'challenging' than the Lion's or that it is a solitary hunter, presumably this would apply to the Leopard.
It is likely as you mentioned, the other 3 Big Cats split off from the Tiger and are more similar to one another than to the Tiger. Perhaps they 'devolved' and lost some genetic information. Hard to say.
However, I do agree that the larger brain of the Tiger may indicate greater intelligence. At issue is: how to prove it?
Just a little question that anyone here have taken in count: What is the brain size of the Snow leopard?
If we follow the same way that lion-jaguar-leopard, snow leopards, the most closer relative of the tiger should have an important brain size in relation with other cats.
Good point Guate. Snow leopards don't seem well studied. Though, I've read that the tiger split off as its own species 3.2 millions years ago, probably enough time to differentiate plenty from the snow leopard, so it's possible the tiger is still unique compared to the snow leopard here.
