WildFact
›
Premier Section
›
Edge of Extinction
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
|
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
|
 (08-07-2024, 05:50 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: @peter APEX I edited my previous long post, especially the paragraphs about skulls. The reason is I recently digested the information in an interesting paper ('Phenotypic plasticity determines differences between the skulls of tigers from mainland Asia', Cooper DM et al, Royal Society Open Science, 2022). As a result of what I read, I decided to go over all info I collected over the years. It resulted in quite a number of tables. They'll be posted later. Greatest skull length of adult male Indian and Amur tigers The authors of the paper mentioned above used 172 skulls located in 14 natural history museums and institutions. The details about the skulls are in the dataset. The conclusion, to keep it short, is skulls of wild male Indian tigers are slightly longer (average 348-349 mm) than skulls of wild male Amur tigers (average 345-346 mm). I do not doubt the information the authors used, but added information published in other books, papers and articles. The conclusion is skulls of adult wild male Amur tigers are longer than skulls of adult wild male Indian tigers (...). The question is why both averages differed. One reason could be the size of the samples. The Indian tiger sample is larger than the Amur tiger sample (referring to the paper). Another reason is my sample (referring to skulls of Amur tigers) was smaller than the sample used for the paper. And then there's Pocock. More than once (referring to letters published in the Journal of the Bombay Natural History Society), he asked hunters in what used to be British India to send skulls to the British Museum. His appeal resulted in dozens of skulls. Not a few hunters, perhaps driven by a wee bit of pride, sent impressive skulls. Most skulls ranged between 338-378 mm in greatest total length. The British Museum doesn't have skulls exceeding 378,5 mm in greatest total length. This although not a few hunters wrote (referring to books and letters published in the Bombay Natural History Society) they had shot male tigers with skulls of, or over, 15 inches in greatest total length. My guess is most experienced hunters (like the Maharajah of Cooch Behar and a number of his guests) kept exceptional skulls for their own collection, although some large skulls might have been bought by collectors. Same, I think, for large skulls of wild male Amur tigers. The difference between the British and the Russians is the Russians never had a curator, an assistent-curator or a zoologist like Pocock. As a result, only few natural history museums and institutions in the Russian Federation have skulls of wild male Amur tigers exceeding 360 mm in greatest total length. If you want to see larger skulls, you have to visit natural history museums in the USA and, until recently, Germany. I added 'until recently', because the large skulls of wild male Amur tigers V. Mazak measured (in Berlin) are gone (...). Do skulls of adult wild male Amur tigers, as Mazak (1983) wrote, really average about 360 mm in greatest total length? The information I have suggests he was right. The average I got to (referring to skulls of adult captive male Amur tigers only) was about 359 mm. That's without the skull of the famous Duisburg Zoo tiger, the skull of the 4-year old male tiger shot in the Köln Zoo in 2012 and the photograph of an exceptional skull V. Mazak discussed in his book published in 1983. As far as I know, these skulls were never measured by a biologist or zoologist. The average I got to, as was stated above, is the average of adult captive male Amur tigers. The average of adult wild male Amur tigers is a bit higher (360-361 mm). In general, it seems quite safe to state there's no difference between captive and wild male Amur tigers in this respect. Paws It could be wild male Amur tigers have larger paws than adult male tigers living in other regions because of the conditions they face, but I'm not sure. I read a book written by a hunter a long time ago. The largest male he saw, although big in all departments, left prints no larger than the prints of a large male leopard (...). Typical for most tigers living in elevated districts (like the Siwaliks), he thought. In less elevated regions, tigers can have very large paws. This photograph was posted by Copters some years ago. It shows the prints of what must have been a very large male tiger (Rajaji, northern India):  *This image is copyright of its original author The only Indian tiger I saw I visited many zoos and private facilities over the years. The only 'true Indian' male tiger I saw lived in a Dutch facility for some time about 20 odd years ago. He was sent to the facility when his trainer fell ill. Compared to the captive Amur tigers in the facility, he was very different. The ground colour was deep orange and his stripes were long, wide and very black. In length, he compared to the Amur tigers. In weight, he almost compared. The main difference, apart from the differences in colour and the size and width of the stripes, was in the way both were built. Captive male Amur tigers are either massive all the way or long, lithe and tall. The alleged 'Indian' tiger (I thought he could have belonged to Panthera tigris corbetti) was somewhere in-between. He was more active, more athletic, more alert and more tense. The 'Indian' didn't like tigers one bit, his trainer said. His best friend was a male lion found at a young age somewhere in wild Africa. He was sold to a man involved in training big cats. In spite of his advice to leave the lion out of a show, he was sold to a trainer who used him for a show. The lion didn't like lions one bit (...). If there would have been a checklist for psychopaths, the trainer told me, he would have topped it with one paw. These two, natural enemies according to all involved in big cats, only accepted each other. Captive male lions and tigers Captive adult male African lions (referring to the opinion of trainers and my observations) often are strong-willed, a bit mono in most departments and quite emotional, if not aggressive. They seem to live in the moment all the time. A result of the way they live, most trainers thought. Captive adult male tigers, apart from a few exceptions, often are their counterparts. In a group, they keep a low profile and try to stay out of trouble (referring to ranking fights and the occasional free for all). In a mixed act, adult male tigers often are loners. They seem to keep records of everything of interest and often have a hidden, somewhat dark, agenda (referring to other big cats in the act). In a mixed act, male lions, large or small, no matter what, eat first. Or else. Same for the mating game. If a mixed act has more than one adult male lion and a few adult male tigers, trouble is to be expected. The trainer I talked to knew all about it. Lions win nearly all encounters at the level of groups, because they know about cooperation. In a one-on-one, however, anything is possible. Like the director of the facility, the trainer of the 'Indian' tiger thought Sumatrans were the most able in a competitive climate. Captive male Amur tigers often use their size to convince opponents, Indian tigers and tigers from southeast Asia are a bit more cagy and Sumatrans go for it no matter what. All this according to those who had the opportunity to work with captive big cats (trainers) or watch them (directors of facilities). Like many posters, trainers like generalisations. The difference with posters is they know reality is a very mixed bag at best. There are countless exceptions and surprises to the general rule. The outcome of confrontations depends on the individual and on circumstances, they say. These observations are of interest, because trainers really know the animals they work with. They have to. I could write a book about the interviews and the things I heard and saw. I could also tell you anything is possible in most mammals, because every adult is an individual. Knowledge Back to your post. The question was what we really know? My guess is it's, like in most humans, close to zilch at the level of individuals. My guess is most wildlife biologists would disagree. The reason is they collect information at the level of species. Their efforts resulted in knowledge, understanding, protection and, in the end, more tigers. This in a few decades only. Quite something, I think. What I'm saying is knowledge is related to the level of observation. The further away you are, the better the chance to discover a few patterns. Posters operate at the level of individuals. Most of them are very competent in the department of selection, meaning they create a lot of room to produce statements with a somewhat speculative character. Interactions between male Amur tigers and male Ussuri brown bears The bottom line of most of your posts, I think, is interactions between wild male Amur tigers and wild male Ussuri brown bears could be more complicated than many assume. As far as I know, most posters think a large adult male Ussuri brown bear will prevail in a fight with a large male Amur tiger most of the time. The reason, they think, is adult male brown bears are larger, bigger and more durable. They're right in the size department. At the level of averages, wild male Ussuri brown bears top wild male Amur tigers in most respects. That, however, doesn't mean every adult male brown bear is willing, or able to, use this advantage to challenge every adult male tiger on every occasion. Posters interested in bears often assume every adult male tiger will make a hasty retreat when an adult male Ussuri brown bear approaches his kill. Experienced biologists who know about both species and interactions, however, concluded adult male brown bears avoid kills of adult male tigers. Every now and then, they (also referring to large male Himalayan black bears) appropiate the kill of a tigress, but there's no evidence of male brown bears appropiating kills of male tigers. Remember we're talking about observations of experienced rangers and biologists and large samples. Meaning interactions between both species apparently are not a result of size only. Also meaning we're missing something. So what do we know? It's known Amur tigers of all sizes hunt Himalayan black bears. It's also known Amur tigers at times hunt (immature and female) brown bears. That, however, doesn't mean all wild Amur tigers hunt brown bears when the opportunity is presented. It depends on the individuals involved. Finally, it's known some immature and young adult tigers hunt bears. Not a few of them develop into accomplished bear hunters targeting even adult female brown bears. These 'specialists', however, are very different from an average tiger. About male Amur tiger 'Odyr' and the adult male brown Ussuri bear he killed in November 2022 Most posters, as was stated above, assume adult male Ussuri brown bears are out of the predatory reach of adult male Amur tigers, but there's some doubt about this assumption. One reason is individual variation is pronounced in both species (also referring to the information of Victor Lukarevsky). Sizewise, there's quite a bit of overlap between adult males of both species. It could be, as some experienced tiger biologists think (referring to the interviews with Russian biologists you posted), an adult wild male Amur tiger has the best chance in a fight with an adult wild male Ussuri brown bear. If true, the first question, of course, is why biologists do not find more adult male brown bears killed by tigers. Hunting large brown bears would make sense for a tiger, as hunting in a region with a harsh climate like the Russian Far East takes a lot of energy. Research, however, says adult male Amur tigers do not hunt adult male brown bears. The incidents discussed in this thread some time ago (referring to 'Chlamyda' and the male brown bear killed by 'Odyr') are quite the exception. The only conclusion explaining the information available is adult males of both species avoid a direct confrontation. The information you found answers one question in that a serious fight between adult males of both species apparently isn't as one-sided as many of those interested in interactions between wild Ussuri brown bears and Amur tigers assume. There's no question 'Odyr' killed an adult (callus width of the front paw 18 cm) male brown bear in what seems to have been an open fight. I'm referring to the articles about this incident and this video recently posted at YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itHpO99c-1c There are, to be complete, some doubt about the age of the male brown bear killed by 'Odyr'. I'm referring to analleged 'email' of a Russian researcher who was contacted by a poster interested in bears not so long ago. The researcher, allegedly, said the brown bear was a 3-year old male (...). The email, posted in a bear forum and used by members of other forums, was used by those interested in bears to reject the report about the incident. The alleged email has to be weighed against the original report. The information provided by those who found the bear, in my opinion, leaves no doubt as to the age of the bear. Furthermore, one has to remember that the one who first reported about the incident, Yuri Kya, knows about Ussuri brown bears and how to measure the callus of the front paw. Is it likely a staff member of the organisation employing Yuri Kya will contradict a senior, very experienced, man like Yuri Kya? A man who saw the location where the bear and the tiger fought for some time? About Yuri Kya Here's a photograph posted quite some years ago. It shows Yuri Kya holding the head of what seems to be a male Ussuri brown bear being weighed:  *This image is copyright of its original author For confirmation of the identity of the man in the photograph, play the video I posted (referring to this post). At 01:59, you can see the Yuri Kya of today. The video is short, to the point and informative. Yuri Kya is Chief Engineer for Forest Protection and Forestry Activities at the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve of the Federal State Budgetary Institution Reserved Amur Region. To say he's an authority on the flora and fauna in the Russian Far East would be an understatement. The team he leads (the video has a photograph of all members of the team) has been patrolling the forest for many years. All members have initimate knowledge of the (character, habits and whereabouts of the) animals living in the forest. When you watch the video again, try to find the photograph of Yuri Kya close to the statue of the one who inspired him. It's Dersu Uzala, the trapper who guided the famous V.K. Arseniev through the forest of the Russian Far East more than a century ago. Vladimir Klavdievich Arseniev (1872-1930) " ... undertook twelve major scientific expeditions between 1902 and 1930 in the Siberian Far East, and authored some sixty (!) works on the geography and ethnography of the region ... " (from the cover of 'Dersu the trapper', reprint, 1996). In 1941, 'Dersu The Trapper' was first published. In 1996, a reprint was published in the USA. It's a great book. People like Arseniev, to put it mildly, heavily relied on the knowledge and the experience of trappers like Dersu Uzala. The Dersu Uzalas of today, like Yuri Kya, still guide explorers and biologists through the forest. Without them, most (Russian biologists are different) biologists would be lost, if not to say they would be forced the reinvent the wheel just about every day. The Dersu Uzalas and Yuri Kyas are remnants of a lost world. The knowledge they have is vast. It doesn't compare to anything else and it's very difficult to describe. Vladimir Klavdevich knew. He's one of the few who tried to catch it in words. The book he wrote about the Russian Far East and the knowledge of Dersu is great. The moment you start reading, you enter another world. One we'll never see again. About those actively involved in producing misinformation, dismissing and ridiculing a very able and experienced ranger and creating a toxic climate Why was the video posted two years after the incident? I don't know, but I do know the video is interesting for those interested in interactions between wild Amur tigers and Ussuri brown bears. It leaves no doubt about the identity of the animals involved, the location of the fight, the date, and the identity and ability of those who found the remains of the bear and inspected the snow-covered ground. I'm not sure, but it is possible the one involved in the video might have been aware of the discussions between posters of different forums. If true, the video might have been an attempt to silence those who deliberately discredited the training, ability, knowledge, experience and integrity of the one who found the remains of the bear (Yuri Kya). That's still apart of the attempt to discredit the forum where the incident was discussed (Wildfact), the attempt to discredit the (Russian) member who first posted about the incident, and the member who posted more, very reliable, information about interactions between tigers and brown bears in the Russian Far East (referring to 'Apex Titan'). And then there's the deliberate campaign to ridicule and discredit one of the co-owners of that forum (Wildfact). We're talking about a forum that had over 100 million views in about a decade. A forum considered as informative and reliable by many. So much so, it's recommended to children interested in the natural world at a number of schools. Apart from that, uite a few biologists and zoologists visit the forum. I know, because they contacted me. This, Brobear, means many readers will learn about your deliberate attempts to dismiss good information, your attempts to replace information collected by reliable woodsmen (like Yuri Kya) by crap produced by a member of your community, and your attempts to dismiss, and insult, those you consider 'reponsible' for informing the general public about the way wild male Amur tigers and wild male Ussuri brown bears in the Russian Far East interact. Apart from that, you're actively involved in producing misinformation, abusive language and creating a toxic climate. All this because the information didn't suit your preference? You've been warned more than once about the way you operate, Brobear. Insulting one of the administrators and some members of a public forum is one thing, but ridiculing a well-trained, very experienced and respected member of an organisation involved in protecting vulnarable species in a reserve in the Russian Far East (referring to Yuri Kya) is something else. Meaning it's a bloody shame and also meaning there will be a follow-up. My first advice is to apologize to those you insulted right away. The second is to get rid of your bloody agenda. You do agendas in the pub. The third is to take biologists who know a lot more than you do serious. The fourth is to quit producing misinformation about wild Amur tigers. Start reading 'peer-reviewed' documents and try to understand what the authors are really saying. In order to get there, buy a book about the advantages of reading first. Last but not least is the advice to follow a course in order to activate the top floor. And when you can't resist the urge to start crapping again, visit a laywer. Whatever you do, remember you're an adult, not a child. This means you're responsible for your actions at all times. You. Not someone else. Your posts say you read every word I post, meaning you now can't say you didn't know. If you ignore the advice, action will follow. This means experts will have a good look at the infamous 'email' one of your members produced. Same for the 'response' of the staff member he contacted in Russia. My guess is the organisation involved will be as interested in the proceedings as we are. We'll also contact the firm enabling you to spread deliberate misinformation and post insults time and again. Remember the public opinion about these issues, for very good reasons, has changed considerably, meaning you, and a number of your members, might face problems. About tiger 'Ochkarik' and Ussuri brown bear 'Chlamyda' I take Batalov, as experienced as they come, very serious, but I agree with those who wrote his conclusion about 'Chlamyda' and 'Ochkarik' seems to have been a result of deduction and logic. He no doubt had very good reasons to get to his conclusion, but one can't completely exclude the possibility 'Chlamyda', who no doubt 'sensed' he had overplayed his hand with tigress 'Rachel', decided to go undercover for some time. Not easy for a giant bear, but you never know. Adult brown bears are very clever animals. My guess (different from being sure) is Batalov could have been right. The reason is adult wild male Amur tigers, as Vaillant (2011) said, often take things personally. The trainers I interviewed told me adult captive male Amur tigers are observative animals with a good memory prepared to wait for the right moment for a long time. According to N. Baikov ('Big game hunting in Manchuria', Hutchinson & Co., London, 1936), not murder, but theft was considered as the most serious offence in Manchuria and the Russian Far East a century ago. My guess is it isn't any different different in today's wild Amur tigers. Wild adult male Amur tigers, as Vaillant wrote, invested years to get to a territory. It's very likely most of them consider tresspassing and theft as major offences. When tigress 'Rachel' informed 'Ochkarik', the father of her cubs, about the actions of the immense male brown bear, chances are he would have acted. There's no doubt whatsoever that 'Chlamyda' invaded the personal space and integrity of tigress 'Rachel' and tiger 'Ochkarik'. For those who know about tigers, this information is as important as what many posters consider as 'evidence' of what (could have) happened later, if not more so. About rare incidents between adult male Amur tigers and adult male Ussuri brown bears Apart from the incidents discussed above, there's reliable information about other incidents in V. Mazak's book 'Der Tiger' (1983). Based on this information, one could conclude an adult male Amur tiger is able to kill an adult male Ussuri brown bear in a fight. I'm not referring to an ambush, but to an open fight. I also don't doubt an adult male Ussuri brown bear is able to kill an adult male Amur tiger. All in all, I'd say we could conclude an average adult male Amur tiger and an average adult male Ussuri brown bear seem to be on a kind of par. This conclusion, of course, is without exceptions. Meaning you never know.
TIGER AND MAN - 1 - NEPAL
Here's a link to a shortish, but interesting, documentary about conflicts between humans and tigers in Nepal. What I'll remember most is the great knowledge, and the attitude, of those involved in solving problems between man and tiger. In Nepal, like in India, tiger and man live in close proximity. The best, most productive, parts of protected reserves and national parks are occupied by prime adults. When they get older, younger, fitter, animals push them out. Tigers that lost their territory often have no other option but to move to the fringes of the forest. Not seldom, conflicts with villagers erupt. Those who protect tigers (and villagers) often have no option but to capture 'roque' tigers. Some can be released in forests where they stand a decent chance, but others have to be transported to facilities or zoos. Not all man-eaters are killed (zoos seem to have quite many), but at times it's the only way to solve a problem. You never know about tigers that lost their home. Some are a mere shadow of their former self, but others are as large as they come. Every problem tiger is located, monitored and, in the end, captured by very experienced men who want the best for them. Pay attention to the remarks of those who know a lot more than we do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6bm5jhMnxQ&t=589s TIGER AND MAN - 2 - BHUTAN Here's the link to another nice documentary. Very interesting as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eono78jNrlo
VIDEOS OF WILD ANIMALS IN THE RUSSIAN FAR EAST - 1 - BOHAI TOURS
In order to silence possible rumours right here and now, we want to underline there's no relation between Wildfact and Bohai Tours. Zilch. Olga Krasnykh, very much involved in Bohai Tours, is a member of Wildfact. She posted information about the animals living in a few reserves (and a national park) in Primorye and the way Ussuri brown bears and Amur tigers interact. Most of the information is from people working in the national park and the reserves mentioned below. The videos (Igor Metelskiy) were shot in the Land of the Leopard Reserve, the Sichote-Alin Biosphere Reserve and the Udege Legend National Park. Most scenes were recorded by remote cameras, but the video also has footage shot by locals from cars (big cats often use roads). Most videos are quite short (8-12 minutes) and show the situation in the reserves and the national park today. If you want to see wild Amur tigers, leopards, Himalayan black bears, Ussuri brown bears, different deer species and small predators living in the southern part of Primorye, our adivce is to go there yourself. If you don't have the opportunity, watch the videos posted by Bohai Tours at regular intervals. I'll post a link every now and then. The video has footage of most iconic animals living in the reserve. Some of the scenes are quite breathtaking. Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJrSHHiamMQos
CONFLICT TIGERS AND MAN-EATERS - 1 - NEPAL
In India and Nepal in particular, conflicts between man and tiger are anything but rare. The reason is they live in close proximity. There are quite many reserves and national parks in both countries, but most are smallish in size. Prime males and females occupy the most productive parts of the national park or reserve. If the population thrives and increases, young adults, some females with cubs and males that lost their territory often have no option but to move to, or settle down in, the fringe of the forest. More often than not, this part of the forest is used by villagers as well. There are different videos about the tiger featuring in this video. Most of them, although longer, offer little information about the tiger involved. In this, very short (01:03), recent video, you can see the tiger (a male) that was captured and moved to Bardia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yqzj-P184Q Here's the link to another video. Same region. Different tiger. It shows not all tigers involved in problems are young adults or incapacitated tigers. The tiger featuring in the video was in excellent shape. I think he was discussed in this thread about three years ago because of his size. At the end of the video (05:56), you can see the rehabilitation center (Banke) where the tiger had to stay after he had been captured. The rehabilitation center had a new building with different cages. The cage where he was jailed was completely destroyed not long after he arrived. The tiger escaped. I don't know if he was captured again. The video (06:56) offers information about the different stages of the preparation. When he had been darted, the tiger managed to reach a small river. It could be he was preparing for a dip and past out, but it's also possible he crossed the river and collapsed on the bank: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNFMMRvOv68 
@peter
Instead of making one very long post, I decided to make a 2 part post. In the 2nd part of my post, I will address your comments about tigers and brown bears, and give my take. To Brobear, and other members of his community, who are posting pure misinformation, blatant lies about tigers, and insults towards Wildfact, and forum members. Brobear, in case you haven't, I suggest you read Peter's last edited version of his post, the part addressing you. The sheer amount of blatant misinformation and lies you post about tigers and bears is ridiculous. But I know exactly why you do this, this is all out of serious insecurity of your beliefs and views. It's called 'coping', and Brobear, you're trying to cope very hard. Your actions show clear insecurity of your views on tigers vs bears. I hope everyone who reads this post, will realize what a liar and deliberate misinformer you really are. It's not my fault that tigers hunt and kill brown bears, it's not my fault that Odyr hunted, killed and devoured a fully-grown, large male brown bear of impressive size. It's not my fault that even large male brown bears sometimes fall prey to tigers. It's not my fault that in the same forest as tigers, the brown bear is not an 'apex predator', and instead becomes a prey item. I know these facts hurt you badly, but there's no need to continuously insult Wildfact and other forum members and also try ridicule expert authorities (biologists & forest rangers) who are a million times more knowledgeable, respected and experienced than you are. You have ZERO humility. You also, very clearly, don't know what "verified", "confirmed" or "evidence" means. You also don't know what makes someone an 'expert'. All the hard evidence was at the kill-site. The large male brown bear's carcass, who was killed and partially-eaten by the tiger, clear signs of a prolonged, furious battle all over the forest clearing, tiger and bear tracks, resting place of the tiger, trampled bushes and grass, location of the fight, where the fight began (near the forest index sign). A battle-ground and kill-site which was examined by highly trained, experienced specialists (forest rangers / game experts). And Brobear, Odyr wasn't "completely unharmed" from the fight, he received minor damage to his front paw, this was determined later by tracking him. Yuri Kya said this in his email. Get your facts right, instead of constantly posting misinformation and lies, like you always do. If this case wasn't confirmed, then there's no way the Amur Tiger Center would have reported it on their VK page! There's no way the employees, staff and authorities of the Bolshekhektsirsky reserve would have reported it, and there's no way the Governor of the Khabarovsk territory, Mikhail Degtyarev would have reported it either. But they did, you know why? because it is indeed a confirmed case of a tiger hunting, fighting, and slaughtering a larger 'impressive sized' adult male brown bear with huge paws. https://deita.ru/article/527875 https://news.rambler.ru/ecology/49790448...bernatora/ Brobear, your extremely biased opinion, wild speculations, lies, and guesswork, is not evidence of anything. You need to post EVIDENCE (actual sources & info from experts) to back-up your empty claims. You never do, all you have is your bold-faced lies, constant insults and agenda. Did Odyr kill a "3 year old" brown bear, according to an alleged (fake) "email" ? Not only does the video I posted confirm that Odyr killed a large, impressive sized male brown bear in a fight, but Yuri Kya also confirmed first-hand (via email) that Odyr killed an adult male brown bear, and he also confirmed the width of the front paw (18 cm). The alleged "email" from Mikhail Milizhek, in which he allegedly states that the bear was a "3 year old", must be a fake email fabricated by some bear fan, who desperately tried to spread misinformation and lies to "debunk" this account. Mikhail Milizhek already verified Yuri Kya's account. I posted 2 emails, from Mikhail Milizhek and Yuri Kya himself, and both verified that the killed bear was indeed an adult male brown bear with a palm callus width of 18 cm: 1st email ( Mikhail Milizhek, Head of the security department of the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve ) Question: "I saw in your reserve the news that the northeast tiger killed an adult brown bear, which said that he had a palm width of 18 centimeters. Is it true?" Mikhail Milizhek: "Hello, yes the information is valid." https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/6040...f78c_t.jpg 2nd email ( Yuri Kya, Chief forest inspector and engineer of forest protection and forestry activities ) Question: "I found news in your reserve. The tiger killed the brown bear. The bear has a front paw callus width of 18 cm. Tell me, is this measured correctly? If correct, this is an adult male brown bear. Is this an adult male brown bear? Yuri Kya: "Yes, indeed, there was such a case when our tiger caught a male brown bear. I confirm the width of the front heel." https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/6040...b670_t.jpg The 2 emails above, completely debunk that dubious, fake email claiming the killed bear was a "3 year old brown bear". What nonsense! Funny how not a single report, article, TV news report, or any other source, has reported that the killed brown bear was a "3 year old" named "Misha". How come, Brobear? Strange, isn't it? There are over 15+ reports (Russian media outlets) about this incident, how come not a single source states that the killed brown bear was a "3 year old" bear? If true, why would the employees and authorities working with the department of the Bolshekhekhtsirsky reserve of the Federal State Budgetary Institution "Reserved Amur Region", allow Yuri Kya to spread "misinformation" and lies about the bears size, paw width and age? How come Yuri Kya, Petrovich, the Amur Tiger Center, TV news reporter, the Governor, or the 'Reserved Amur Region' employees never once mentioned it was a '3 year old' brown bear named 'Misha' killed?? How come they all corroborate Yuri Kya's conclusions and statement? How come when Yuri Kya personally SAW the killed brown bear's carcass, he specifically said: "Impressive bear" ?? Huh, Brobear?  *This image is copyright of its original author There's absolutely no doubt, confirmed 100% ( based on all the original reports, TV news, video, and the 2 emails ), that Odyr hunted and killed a large 'impressive sized' adult male brown bear. But Brobear, you will continue to deliberately ignore all these important evidences and confirmations, and never admit it. You know why? because it doesn't suit your fanatical agenda and extremely biased preferences. You're coping, and coping hard. Facts and reality will never change for you! Instead, you've decided to arrogantly reject, dismiss, and attempt to ridicule the conclusions of well-respected, experienced, seasoned forest rangers (experts), who are entrusted by the authorities / biologists to protect and conserve wildlife and reserves, forest rangers who constantly patrol the taiga and have deep knowledge about the flora and fauna of the taiga. Rangers who study the animals and observe their habits, the same experienced rangers who even biologists & scientists rely on to conduct the census of wild animals in the forest. The same ranger (Yuri Kya) who spends far more time in the taiga than ANY biologist or researcher does, and is a highly trained expert at judging and measuring the tracks/paws of animals. Brobear, I know it hurts, I understand your pain. I know you can't handle the fact that an adult male brown bear falls prey to a tiger. I know it hurts that a large male brown bear got hunted, killed, and eaten by a smaller tiger. I know you're trying to cope, because the vast majority of evidence, expert testimonies, statistics and accounts are overwhelmingly in the tigers favor, but there's no reason to constantly spew blatant lies, misinformation and insult Wildfact and it's forum members, just because you're in pain and in clear denial of reality and facts. You think Yuri Kya is just some "dummy" who know's nothing? Brobear, go learn what a forest inspector/ranger is. Yuri Kya is a very experienced and knowledgeable expert, who's lived and worked in the taiga for a long time, he's always patrolling and roaming the forest. He's a highly respected authority, hence why he's the Chief forest inspector who leads an entire team of forest rangers and (wildlife) game experts! Does this sound like an "idiot" to you? In fact, people like Yuri Kya are more knowledgeable than most biologists. Biologists mainly focus on science and the ecology of specific mammals, whereas Yuri Kya has a lot of knowledge about even the plants, trees, and birds of the taiga, as well as the ecology of tigers, bears, and other mammals and wildlife. Rangers are usually more experienced than biologists. Watch this video from 11:05 onwards; You'll see that Yuri Kya is a man with VAST AMOUNT of experience and knowledge about the flora and fauna of the taiga: Brobear, this is the same experienced and well-respected expert, that you're trying to ridicule and arrogantly dismiss, just because you simply can't handle the fact, that Yuri Kya found and reported an undeniable, confirmed (and recent) case of a large, fully grown adult male brown bear that was hunted and killed in a fight by a smaller tiger. Also note, in 2022, that particular season in the Khekhtsir reserve, there was a good harvest of food for bears in the forest, and all bears were well-fed. I posted the report in this thread. So Odyr killed a larger, well-fed adult male brown bear in a head-on fight. The reports even mention that the bear was about to go into hibernation, but became prey of the tiger. You can cope, insult us, and lie to yourself all you want, but it's the truth and established fact. You expect any sane person to switch off their brains, and ignore what serious, respected expert authorities (who examined the kill-site) say, and blindly accept the blatant lies and nonsense you constantly spout? All in all, Brobear, you're a very insecure, compulsive liar who repeatedly posts misinformation and pathetic lies, and constantly insults Wildfact, its co-owner and member. That's all you are, and all you got, period.
In my previous post, I mentioned the expertise of wildlife ranger & Chief forest inspector - Yuri Kya, who's the engineer of forest protection and forestry activities in the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve in the Khabarovsk region. Yuri Kya is the leader of a ranger force responsible for protecting and conserving the wildlife species and forest. Meaning, he's the top ranger. He's also a master tracker. Yuri Kya would easily be able to accurately measure, estimate and determine the size of an animal, and it's paw size or tracks.
Yuri Kya is a native from the Udege tribe, he was born and bred in the Ussuri region and comes from (many thousands of years) countless generations of taiga peoples/woodsmen. Ranger's regularly venture into places in the wild, where biologists (referring to western biologists in particular, not Russians) never go. Forest rangers are expert guides and expert trackers, who intimately know the behaviour, habits, diet, and territories of the wildlife. Biologists often rely on rangers like Yuri Kya to guide them in the forest, biologists & scientific researchers also learn about the flora and fauna from forest rangers, as rangers are generally much more experienced and knowledgeable about the forest and wildlife. Rangers play the most crucial role in wildlife conservation, because they always work on the front line protecting the animals and ecosystems. Unlike biologists and researchers, rangers are constantly patrolling and roaming the forest, day in and day out. They see things that many biologists never see. When locals come into conflict with the wildlife, rangers are contacted to deal with the situation. No one know's more about the wildlife and forests than a ranger does. Here's a recent article I found, published on July 30, 2024, to celebrate World Ranger Day, and to appreciate the great work and vital role rangers play in wildlife conservation. What's a Ranger? A Look into the Lives of Wildlife Rangers Across the globe, an inspiring force of dedicated conservationists stands by the side of wildlife species. Scaling mountains, traversing rivers, and braving dense jungles, these individuals safeguard the planet’s 40 species of wild cats and countless other creatures: they are rangers. Wildlife rangers are indispensable champions in the global effort to preserve Earth's biodiversity. Panthera plays a crucial role in this mission by providing vital support to rangers and patrols worldwide, ensuring the protection of precious wildlife. In Malaysia, for example, a study found that tactices developed by PERHILITAN (Malaysia’s Department of Parks and Wildlife) tactics in conjunction with Panthera’s civilian scout teams, reduced the success of foreign poaching incursions in research sites by up to 40 percent. Despite these achievements, numerous misconceptions persist about wildlife rangers and their roles. In honor of World Ranger Day, we're providing an insightful glimpse into the daily lives of these crucial conservationists. Where Do Rangers Roam? A ranger protects and preserves natural areas, including areas that have cultural and historical value. What Tasks Do Rangers Perform? Rangers patrol protected lands, prevent poaching and mitigate human-wildlife conflict, accommodate tourists who visit the area and collaborate with local communities. How Do Rangers Track Wildlife? Rangers monitor and record wildlife populations while protecting their landscapes. How Do Rangers Help Wild Cats? For the 40 wild cat species, rangers ensure their survival by protecting them, other wildlife that these felines depend upon, and maintaining the overall biodiversity of the area. How Can You Get Involved? To learn more about rangers, visit the Universal Ranger Support Alliance or read our past blogs about rangers. https://panthera.org/blog-post/whats-ran...fe-rangers Yuri Kya (Chief forest inspector & wildlife ranger) next to the statue of the legendary (Indigenous) Nanai trapper, forest guide, and hunter - Dersu Uzala:  *This image is copyright of its original author
 (08-19-2024, 06:57 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: In my previous post, I mentioned the expertise of wildlife ranger & Chief forest inspector - Yuri Kya, who's the engineer of forest protection and forestry activities in the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve in the Khabarovsk region. Yuri Kya is the leader of a ranger force responsible for protecting and conserving the wildlife species and forest. Meaning, he's the top ranger. He's also a master tracker. Yuri Kya would easily be able to accurately measure, estimate and determine the size of an animal, and it's paw size or tracks. Very informative posts, truly educational, excellent efforts, my friend!
SERGEI ARAMILEV ON RELATIONSHIPS AND INTERACTIONS BETWEEN TIGERS AND BEARS IN THE RUSSIAN FAR EAST
The video (the link is in chapter -6-) was posted some years ago. The new, adapted, version in this post has an English translation, meaning it's easier to understand what Aramilev is saying. Before moving to the video, I decided for a, longish, introduction. The aim of the detour is to enable those interested in the video to digest the information Aramilev offers. 1 - About Sergei Aramilev Aramilev is "... Director-General of the Far Eastern Branch of the Amur Tiger Center, an organization created by the Russian Geographical Society on the initiative of the President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin. The Center carries out its activities without budget funding, solely thanks to the sponsorship of organizations and private individuals ... " (from the site of the Amur Tiger Center). Sergei Aramilev was involved in (at least) 13 scientific contributions. To say Aramilev knows about tigers and bears in the Russian Far East wouldn't quite cover it. He has been talking with rangers and biologists working in the Russian Far East for many years. Rangers in particular are as knowledgeable as they come. They patrol the forest all the time and see things most biologists do not. Apart from that, they talk to locals and hunters. They no doubt informed Aramilev about incidents not discussed in most books and documents. That, of course, doesn't mean they didn't happen. They did. Biologists used the information in peer-reviewed documents, meaning they rewrote paragraphs about (interactions between) Amur tigers and bears (in general). One of these documents (in which D. Miquelle was involved) was discussed in this thread some years ago. 2 - About the video Aramilev says Amur tigers consider Himalayan black bears as a source of food. Adult male Amur tigers even hunt male Himalayan black bears ranging between 400-550 pounds. Amur tigers also hunt brown bears. Experienced, often older, males (bear specialists) occasionally target adult females. Research says adult male Ussuri brown bears, apart from a few incidents discussed in previous posts, are not hunted. When adult males of both species meet, they, Aramilev continues, 'ignore' each other. When there's a crop failure, however, brown bears, driven by hunger and desperation, not seldom approach tiger kills. This is especially the case in late autumn and winter. Adult male Ussuri brown bears (referring to recent information) average about 600 pounds, but individuals twice that weight are not considered as rare in the Russian Far East. In a fight with an immature tiger or an adult tigress, adult male Ussuri brown bears stand a decent chance. If the opponent is an adult male tiger, however, they struggle. More often than not, according to Aramilev, the male tiger comes out on top. 3 - About essentials of, and interactions between, Amur tigers and Ussuri brown bears In the video, Aramilev explains why rangers, hunters and biologists think adult male Amur tigers always win a fight with an adult male Ussuri brown bear. This paragraph is an attempt to cover what he said. Every now and then, I added a few remarks. Bears, apart from their relatives in the far north (referring to polar bears), largely rely on plants, berries, roots and insects. During the salmon run, they fish. In some regions and seasons, some bears hunt young animals. Experienced, older individuals occasionally hunt adult deer or wild boar when the opportunity presents itself. In some regions, infanticide and cannibalism are not uncommon. Based on what I read and saw (referring to videos), one could say bears use their weight and strength to subdue their victims. Specific skills are not needed to secure a meal, that is. Apart from that, most of their victims do not fight back. The reason is they're smaller. Brown bears in the Russian Far East are more predatory than Himalayan black bears, but they too largely rely on grass, roots, insects and berries. Experienced, older males in particular at times hunt. Some males learned to use their size to displace smaller predators. Tigers, on the other hand, only eat meat. When young Amur tigers disperse between 18-22 months of age, they're able to take care of themselves. Although they often target animals smaller than themselves, young Amur tigers have been known to kill Himalayan black bears, immature and young adult brown bears and (referring to a recent post of 'Apex' in another thread) even adult male wild boars well exceeding their own weight. Ussuri wild boars, to give you an idea of their size, are the largest in the world. In the period between dispersal and adulthood, tigers develop their skills. This means they learn to use their energy in the most effective and efficient way. In the Russian Far East, this is important. The reason is energy deficits never are far away. Although all true predators, including Amur tigers, are opportunists by nature, adult Amur tigers, and males in particular, often select large prey animals. This is far from easy. The reason is the Russian Far East, as a result of the climate, isn't as productive as, for instance, southern Asia. This means the density of large herbivores is lower. It also means Amur tigers, in order to find them, have to walk longer distances than their relatives in southern Asia. Last but not least is Amur tigers, for these reasons, are more likely to defend their kill. The " ... intense and reflexive possessiveness ... " ('The Tiger', pp. 139) of male Amur tigers Vaillant refers to in his book could (assumption) be an evolutionary response to the harsh conditions Amur tigers often face. The conditions also could (another assumption) be the reason adult male Amur tigers in particular seem to consider tresspassing and theft as major crimes. I'm not saying this is the reason they " ... occasionally kill bears solely on something ... we might consider as principle ... " ('The Tiger', pp. 140), but it seems quite likely. Meaning we arrived at the relationship between Amur tigers and bears. What relationship? And where, if there is one, did it originate? Recent research conducted in the Russian Far East (referring to different studies) says just about every bear will visit a tiger kill when the owner is away. Only few adult male bears (referring to both species) are prepared to confront a young tiger or an adult female. Although some tigresses have been displaced (there's a recent video about a tigress displaced by what seems to be an adult male Himalayan black bear), incidents of this nature are few. That, of course, doesn't mean disputes near a kill site are. In fact, the opposite is true. There are quite many reports about confrontations between bears and tigers near kill sites. All in all, it seems quite safe to conclude most tigers learn about bears near kill sites. The hard way, meaning they're forced to fight for their kill or leave. That's still apart from 'satellite bears'. These bears, nearly always large males like 'Chlamyda', often follow and displace tigresses with cubs, forcing them to hunt again and leave their cubs unprotected. Tiger cubs have been killed by bears, but incidents of this nature are few. Bears do not disappear when young Amur tigers disperse. Not seldom (referring to recent studies based on collared immature and young adult Amur tigers), they face bears interested in their kill. Some tigers leave, but others fight and sometimes kill bears. Not a few of those who learned to kill bears at a young age develop into specialists. I'm not sure, but my guess is most tigers, including young adult males and mature females, are harrassed by bears near their kill quite often. There are many thousands of bears in the Russian Far East. Amur tigers often have no option but to defend their kill against bears. If they don't, chances are the bear will follow them from kill to kill. It's very likely unwilling or unable to confront bears will be faced with energy deficits at regular intervals. It's very likely harsh conditions, few large prey animals and many bears visiting tiger kills have an effect on the attitude of wild Amur tigers. This, most probably, is the main difference between Amur tigers and their relatives in southern Asia. Tigers in southern Asia are not often challenged by bears, whereas their relatives in the Russian Far East are. Most adult Amur tigers, for this reason, are 'bear experienced'. They learned to kill bears at a quite young age and consider bears as a source of food. Dietwise, in some seasons and districts (again referring to recent research), bears are as important as wild boars and deer. 4 - About a fight between an adult male Amur tiger and an adult Ussuri male brown bear Aramilev says all adult wild tigers, in contrast to most bears, are experienced hunters able to quickly kill even large and powerful opponents like wild boars and bears. Another difference between bears and Amur tigers, as was stated in the previous paragraph, is nearly all adult Amur tigers graduated in bears. In a serious confrontation, size, weight and strength count, but it's very likely experience, intelligence, agility, speed and skill are as important, if not more so. In the end, just like in most other mammals (including humans), a close fight often is decided by the attitude and determination of those involved. That's still apart from the tools used. Compared to the skull of an average adult wild male Amur tiger, the skull of average adult male Ussuri brown bears is longer and heavier. The rostrum is (relatively) narrower. The (most likely) reason is adult male Ussuri brown bears have relatively short canines. Those of male Amur tigers are significantly longer and thicker at the insertion. One could say the skull of an adult male Amur tiger is a big gun platform and be close. The skull of an adult male Ussuri brown bear, on the other hand, compares to the armoured belt of a battleship. Here's a photograph (first posted by 'Warsaw') of a skull of a male Ussuri brown bear. Skulls of adult male Ussuri brown bears average about 380-390 mm in greatest total length. The skull in the photograph, if I remember correctly, is 430 mm (...). I thought 'Warsaw' said the skull belonged to an adult male, but the sutures, not completely closed, say the owner of the skull was a young adult or a bit older. The skull is robust, but the maxillary bone and the rostrum, compared to the total length of the skull, are relatively narrow:  *This image is copyright of its original author Here's the skull a wild male Amur tiger. The tiger, if I remember correctly, was poached. Compared to a skull of an average male Ussuri brown bear, the skull of an average male Amur tiger is shorter (average greatest total length about 360 mm) and relatively wider, but not as heavy. Judging from the shape and colour of the canines, the former owner most probably was a young adult male. The main difference between both skulls is the Amur tiger skull has longer and more robust canines.  *This image is copyright of its original author All big cats kill with their teeth. Amur tigers have the longest and heaviest upper canines of all big cats (at the level of averages). Furthermore, they learned how to use them in the most efficient way. In the video, Aramilev, indirectly, says a serious bite isn't always decisive. Not seldom, it's about the wounds caused by a bite. If a fight is undecided and both animals disperse, one of the two can perish as a result of an infection days or even weeks later. My guess is brown bears could be more often affected than male tigers. The reason is male Amur tigers have longer canines, enabling them to reach, and at times penetrate, arteries, muscles, bones and even organs. In order to deliver a crippling bite, size, speed, agility and strength are needed. Compared to adult male Amur tigers, adult male Ussuri brown bears are taller and heavier at the level of averages. In head and body length, however, there's little to choose between them. The information I have suggests male Amur tigers are a bit longer. This means they more or less compare when standing on their hind legs. A crippling bite in the throat or neck can be delivered while standing, but my guess is tigers prefer a different position. The reason is adult male Ussuri brown bears have relatively short and muscular necks. It would take an average adult male tiger a lot of strength, and a large gape, to deliver a lethal bite in that position. Furthermore, chances are the bear could use the opportunity to get hold of the neck. In a fight on the ground, however, the tiger, as a result of it's speed and agility, most likely will get more opportunities. Furthermore, he can target the neck. Last but not least is he's less vulnarable. Here's two photographs of male Ussuri brown bears. The second was first posted by 'Warsaw'. Watch the upper part of the body and the length and width of the neck and the shoulder:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author In order to get to a good position to deliver a bite, strength is needed. I'm referring to the strength needed to keep an opponent in a vulnarable position for a few seconds. This means it's about the size and strength of the paw, the fore-arm, the upper arm and the shoulder. In these departments, mature male Amur tigers do not seem to be lacking:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author I measured three captive adult male Amur tigers and three captive male lions. The Amur tigers were a bit longer and taller, but the difference in weight seemed (I was only able to weigh one Amur tiger) to be limited. The male lions, quite massive, had slightly larger skulls and bigger chests, but the Amur tigers, although not large, had significantly larger fore-arms (referring to measurements taken just below the elbow). This seems to be typical for most captive male Amur tigers. Recent research says there's little to choose between captive and wild male Amur tigers in the skull department (referring to greatest total length), but wild male Amur tigers, although perhaps a bit shorter, seem (not sure) to be more thick-set and more robust than their captive relatives. I know 'seem' is everywhere in this paragraph, but I have no other option. The reason is a lack of reliable measurements. Anyhow. What I'm trying to say is adult male Amur tigers do not seem to be lacking in strength, meaning it's quite likely they're capable of restraining even a quite large male Ussuri brown bear, if only for a few seconds. This might enable them to deliver a crippling bite. Adult male bears are more agile and faster than most of us assume, but chances are Amur tigers have an advantage in these respects. Only very few had the opportunity to see a fight between a wild Amur tiger and a wild Ussuri brown bear. In every case (referring to a limited number of incidents witnessed in the last three decades), the fight was between a male Amur tiger and a female Ussuri brown bear. In most cases, the male Amur tiger quickly overwhelmed the female brown bear, but some females put up a good fight, even injuring the tiger. Another large female brown bear, however, was killed without a struggle. The tiger, a 'bear-experienced' male, became aware of the female brown bear when he was walking on a ridge. He used the difference in height for a jump, most probably landed on top of or directly behind the bear and killed her with one bite to the neck. The tiger, who only had three canines, had a big advantage, but death apparently was instantaneous. Posters interested in bears often say all 'large' bears killed by Amur tigers were ambushed, but the incident above is the only documented one I know of in which an adult female Ussuri brown bear was killed in this way. The male Ussuri brown bear killed by male Amur tiger 'Odyr' in November 2022 was killed in what seems to have been an open fight. Same for the other female brown bears killed by male Amur tigers. Aramilev, in the video, isn't referring to ambushes. It no doubt happens, but it's very unlikely a male Amur tiger is able to kill an adult male Ussuri brown bear in this way for the reasons stated above. In the video, Aramilev says adult male Amur tigers always prevail in a fight with an adult male Ussuri brown bear. It is about 'always'. Aramilev is very clear in this respect. He no doubt has good reasons to get to this conclusion, but it is a fact others have a different opinion. I'm referring to, for instance, Kretzschmar, an experienced biologist and hunter. I recently posted about the observation of a hunter in the most southern district of Primorye in the late seventies or early eighties of the previous century. Vaillant also thinks a large brown bear could stand a decent chance in a fight with an adult male tiger: "... An Amur tiger's sense of superiority and dominance over his realm is absolute: because of his position in the forest hierarchy, the only force a male will typically submit to is a stronger tiger or, occasionally, a large brown bear ... " ('The Tiger', pp. 139-140). Every rule has exceptions, one might conclude. But Aramilev's statement is anything but unclear and he's an undisputed authority. I don't think it's supefluous to add both male Ussuri brown bears I referred to were killed by male Amur tigers described as 'average-sized' by those who knew them. This, I think, underlines the point made above that size isn't the only factor to consider in a fight between a male Ussuri brown bear and a male Amur tiger. Both male tigers were mature individuals. 5 - A few videos about bears and tigers in the Russian Far East Here's the link to a very short video showing male Amur tiger 'Ochkarik' posted on YouTube by 'Rickstar': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5NJD6Z5r-o And here's the link to the video posted by 'Apex Titan' a few weeks ago (this thread). It has a photograph of male Amur 'Odyr': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itHpO99c-1c The last video (Wild Brawl Productions) has nice footage of Amur tigers, Himalayan brown bears, Ussuri brown bears and an Amur leopard. It shows individual variation can be pronounced, especially in Ussuri brown bears and Amur tigers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj0U7_uw6gg Male Amur tiger and male Ussuri brown bear photographed at the same tree (comments in Korean): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiBUPYkvrOU&t=11s 6 - Link to the video with Sergei Aramilev https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rltc-1zqF-M 7 - To conclude Some of those who saw the video and read Vaillant's book and information posted by our member 'Apex Titan' no doubt concluded all questions about male Amur tigers, male Ussuri brown bears and confrontations have been answered, but others might disagree. Whatever you think, the request is to remember all of us are interested in those making their home in the natural world. Also remember the forest is all but impenetrable for most of us. In order to find out a bit more, we read books and (peer-reviewed) documents, watch documentaries and videos, join forums and interact with others with a similar interest. The aim of all this, in the end, is to get to a bit of knowledge. Remember interaction has to be based on respect at all times. Respect for good information, respect for those actively involved in acquiring (and sharing) knowledge and respect for those who joined a forum to interact about the natural world. Without respect, communication is all but impossible. Not what we want and not good for anyone really interested in the natural world. This is the reason we have rules and it is the reason these rules will be applied at all times. An our position? Our aim is good information, not something else. 8 - Link to the site of the Amur Tiger Programme http://programmes.putin.kremlin.ru/en/tiger/news/26219 (08-21-2024, 10:21 AM)peter Wrote: SERGEJ ARAMILEV ON RELATIONSHIPS AND INTERACTIONS BETWEEN TIGERS AND BEARS IN THE RUSSIAN FAR EAST Aramilev, is clearly referring to male tigers defeating even exceptional male brown bears. He says: "Therefore, an adult male tiger will always kill any bear. But a female or young tiger can lose to a large male (brown) bear." In his conclusion, Aramilev never said a large male brown bear is capable of killing an adult male tiger in a fight. He said large male brown bears stand a chance against females or young tigers only. But according to him, an adult male tiger will win a fight against a large male brown bear (or any bear) every time. "Any bear" means a male tiger (as Aramilev specifically said) will 'always' kill a brown bear of any size, age, gender or weight in a fight. However, in my opinion, a male tiger will certainly not 'always' kill a large or huge male brown bear in a fight. Of course, in some cases, the tiger will lose. But, as a rule (according to experienced biologists, rangers, hunters), the tiger will be the usual winner. Regarding fights between Amur tigers and adult bears: Russian special correspondent & reporter "MK" helped lead an investigation deep into the taiga, with leading tiger expert, ranger, scientist, and tracker Pavel Fomenko. The information he reports is directly from Fomenko. He states that Amur tigers almost always win fights against adult bears. Pavel Fomenko: https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/tiger-ranger-scientist-and-detective  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.mk.ru/social/2014/12/18/v-kh...00-kg.html https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/%...frontcover As to John Vaillant's take on Amur tigers vs Ussuri brown bears, based on numerous interviews he had with Russian experts, biologists, rangers, hunters, and locals. Peter, Vaillant was quite explicit about the Amur tigers superiority and dominance over the brown bear. To be fully complete about what John Vaillant said about tigers and brown bears, here's a video and more statements from his great book: According to the information Vaillant received from various biologists, rangers, hunters, and locals, Amur tigers attack and kill brown bears on a regular basis. In this interview, Vaillant is asked about tigers vs big Russian bears / grizzly bears. John Vaillant: "The tiger has this inborn sense of total dominance over its domain. Russian brown bears are the equivalent of our grizzly, tigers attack, kill them, and eat them on a regular basis. I've seen video of a tiger charging a helicopter. So they have this inborn sense, that there's nothing out there, bigger and badder than me, and they act on that." At the end of the video, both the interviewer and Vaillant (say) agree, that in Asia, and the Russian Far East, the tiger is the 'King of the jungle'. Go to the 11:28 mark: As to adult male brown bears being hunted as food by tigers. Vaillant states that there's no creature in the taiga, that's off limits to the tiger. All animals (including adult brown bears) fall prey to the tiger:  *This image is copyright of its original author As to fights between tigers and brown bears. Again, Vaillant is explicit, and what he said, clearly indicates that tigers not only (as a rule) dominate brown bears, but brutally dismember them. Vaillant states (this is the most telling part), that tigers sometimes pick fights with brown bears, and tear the bears apart, limb from limb, and scatter their appendages across the battle-ground. And the discovery of such scenes, is one of the reasons, why the indigenous peoples refer to the tiger (not the brown bear) as the 'Czar (Lord) of the forest.' In this part, Vaillant is blatantly talking about the Amur tigers dominance over the brown bear, and also shows the sheer hostility and aggression tigers have towards brown bears:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author John Vaillant and Sergei Aramilev's words are clear-cut. All in all, while a large male brown bear is certainly capable of winning a fight against a male tiger, the tiger, as a rule, wins such a fight. Hence why most experienced Russian experts (biologists, rangers, hunters) favour the male tiger in a fight against even a very large male brown bear. And I assume, after the recent case of the tiger Odyr killing a large, 'impressive sized' adult male brown bear in a fight, that the experts favour the tiger even more strongly now. In the footsteps of Vladimir Klavdievich Arseniev and his companion Dersu Uzala "Hunters, who are constantly in the taiga, say that if the largest animals - a tiger and a brown bear - meet, they, feeling each other's strength, will certainly try to disperse peacefully. But if the conflict cannot be resolved in this way, then it is believed that the tiger will most likely win, if he is not injured, tired and has not lost strength from hunger."  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/%...frontcover
@peter
I read your last edited version of your post. You made some crucial points. Here's my take, I also added some accounts, pictures and videos to explain what I'm saying. For those who read mine and Peter's posts on tiger-bear interactions/fights, keep in mind, we're not talking about fights that happened in captivity (staged fights and animal circus shows), where animal trainers/animal abusers and gambler's can create conditions and situations which heavily favour one animal over another, and base their opinions on personal bias and preference, and even intentionally lie. We're talking about serious, reputable and experienced Russian experts, rangers, biologists, zoologists, and seasoned hunters who are reporting about fights between WILD tigers and brown bears in the taiga. Huge difference. The reason male Amur tigers, as a rule, win fights against male Ussuri brown bears; based on experienced experts & Russian authorities views and observations In a fair fight, the Amur tiger holds more advantages over a large male brown bear. The tiger has superior speed, agility, power (explosive strength), deadlier weaponry, stronger bite force, far greater killing skill & experience, killer instinct, ferocity, precision, efficiency and reflexes. Whereas the large male brown bear is bigger, heavier, stronger, and more durable. The tiger possesses the more vital physical attributes for mortal combat. Compared to a tiger, a brown bear is much more cumbersome and slower. Colonel Kesri Singh, a game warden, hunter & tracker states, although some northern bears (brown and polar bears) are larger than tigers, they lack the deadly weaponry and agility of the tiger, which makes the tiger a more formidable beast:  *This image is copyright of its original author Size only matters when two animals of the same species are fighting, but size/weight doesn't necessarily matter when two animals of a different species are fighting. Now, other factors come into play like skill, weapons, speed, agility, precision, power, killer instinct, intelligence, etc. All these attributes can easily nullify your opponents size advantage. There are countless examples throughout history of smaller, but faster, more agile and skilled fighters dominating and destroying much larger and physically stronger opponents. Why? because in spite of the size, weight and strength disadvantage, the smaller fighter was much more skilled, determined, faster, had superior precision, power and reflexes. And remember, in general, adult male Amur tigers and adult male Ussuri brown bears are very similar-sized (not weight wise) predators. Sometimes, even a male tiger is larger than a male brown bear. Individual size & weight variation is very conspicuous in mammals, especially in bears. Yuri Dunishenko (one of the world's leading scientific authority's on Amur tigers), a biologist & senior researcher, also favors an adult male tiger in a fight against even the largest male brown bears weighing 400 - 600 kg. Why? because he said tigers compensate for the lower weight with superior killing skills. Like Aramilev, Dunishenko states that a very large male brown bear (400-600 kg) has a better chance against a female or young tiger, but against an adult male tiger, the bear has few chances. Interestingly, Dunishenko (like Aramilev), never said a very large male brown bear weighing 400 - 600 kg, is capable of 'killing' a male tiger, he said they can only offer 'decent resistance'. Dunishenko, a seasoned expert, has spent 50 years working with various biologists, zoologists, rangers and game-keepers studying the ecology of Amur tigers. Like Batalov, he's one of the oldest, most experienced and knowledgeable field experts on wild Amur tigers and bears in Far East Russia. As to the video. Aramilev is saying, that the tiger is a natural born apex killer, a beast which is born to end lives, and specifically built for routinely tackling, subduing and killing large, powerful and dangerous animals several times its own weight/size for a living. An absolute apex predator. Whereas the brown bear is a natural born scavenger, vegetarian and forager. Huge differences between these two beasts, and this huge difference is very crucial and counts in a serious fight between the two. Not to mention, Amur tigers are specialized bear-killers. For adult male tigers, bears are common prey. Some tigresses are also active bear-hunters. So the Amur tiger is specifically evolved and adapted to hunting, fighting and killing even large bears. Tigers have the size, weaponry, skill, and power to annihilate a large bear instantly (see below). This bear killing experience and skill of tigers, also gives it the advantage in a fight against a large male brown bear. Which was confirmed by Yuri Kya's recent account of the tiger Odyr killing a larger adult male brown bear (palm callus width of 18 cm!) in a head-on fight out in the open. Amur tigers also have the true 'apex predator mentality and attitude', whereas the Ussuri brown bear does not. For a tiger, a brown bear is a prey item, and the bears know this. Psychological and mindset wise, the tiger has the clear advantage. Predatory & Fighting Skill The killing skills, efficiency and precision of a tiger and brown bear is not even comparable. In this respect, tigers are far, far superior. For example, there are many accounts of juvenile Amur tigers (including young tigresses) attacking and killing 'large' and 'very large' male Ussuri wild boars with no problems. In one case, the 1.5 year old juvenile male tiger 'Kuzya' killed a large male Ussuri wild boar in a tough fight. The young tiger was not even slightly injured from the fight. Ussuri wild boars are the largest, most aggressive, and most powerful species of wild boar on earth, with large males reaching weights of 200 - 320 kg. A 1.5 year old juvenile male tiger weighs around 80 - 120 kg, a juvenile tigress weighs 50 - 100 kg, and in spite of the significant size/weight difference, newly released, inexperienced juvenile tigers and tigresses were able to tackle, fight and kill large male wild boars much heavier than themselves. "The wild boar of the Russian Far East are absolutely huge - the largest of any boar subspecies - with records up to 700 pounds. That is, actually, as big as a bear." https://blog.wcs.org/photo/2016/06/03/a-bear-of-a-boar/ Back in 2014, in the Amur region, a seriously ill and weakened tiger, dying from kidney and adrenal cancer, still managed to attack, fight, and kill a large male wild boar using just his front limbs and jaws. Despite his severely weakened state, the sick tiger's strength, predatory skills and weapons prevailed in the fight against such a large, dangerous, and powerfully built animal armed with large tusks. Adult male Ussuri wild boars in Sikhote-Alin (top picture) and Anyuisky National Park (bottom picture):  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author In one Amur tiger documentary (removed from youtube) I watched, it mentioned how the tigress 'Katya' easily takes down 500 lb wild boars, almost twice her own weight! Can you imagine a juvenile, adolescent or young adult male brown bear trying to kill a large male wild boar? It would end terribly for the bear. But juvenile male and female tigers can successfully attack and kill (even in a fight) huge wild boars larger than themselves. What does this show? This is what Aramilev is alluding to. Killing skill, experience, weapons, agility, and speed is a big advantage in a serious fight between a tiger and a bear of any species. Unlike a tiger, an adult male brown bear could never take on and kill a huge wild boar much heavier than himself. Bears are not built for this, they need a size and weight advantage to overcome a large male wild boar. Brown bears are far from being specialized killers. That's why there's not a single modern case (in the 21st century) or the last 30+years of a Ussuri brown bear killing an adult male wild boar, let alone a large male boar. This is just two of numerous other accounts of young Amur tigers killing large male wild boars; inexperienced juvenile tiger 'Kuzya' crushed a large male wild boar:  *This image is copyright of its original author https://xakac.info/news/38308 https://www.interfax-russia.ru/far-east/...kilometrov https://ampravda.ru/2015/05/19/057430.html In his book, Vaillant recollects an account of Russian ecologist, ranger & naturalist - Vladimir Troinin, who witnessed an epic battle to the death between a juvenile Amur tiger and a huge male wild boar, twice its own size. In spite of the huge size difference, the young tiger brutally annihilated the giant boar. Troinin was shocked at how the tiger eviscerated the boar, inflicting serious damage to the huge boar's skull: Vladimir Troinin: https://pgpb.ru/media/cd/zp/new/troy.html  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Bears of any subspecies are not physically capable of such killing feats. This is the clear difference between a natural born killer and a natural born scavenger/forager. And this is what experts like Aramilev, Dunishenko, and others are saying. Even at such a young age, tigers are formidable killers, able to hunt, fight and kill larger, stronger and dangerous animals. Aramilev also says that the tiger is a phenomenal predator, it's body is built for murder. Nature also created the tiger to be the top of the solitary predators, he says. The brown bear on the other hand, is a more cumbersome, less intelligent, and less skilled predator who predominantly lives off plants, berries, acorns, fish and the occasional young ungulate it hunts. Whereas a tiger kills a large animal every few days, for its entire life. Aramilev says, this training (killing experience and skill of the tiger) gives results, which gives the tiger a significant advantage in a fight against a large male (or any bear) brown bear. Size and weight (adult male brown bear) is not gonna help when your opponent (adult male tiger) is a far more skilled, lethally equipped and habitual killer, who's also of similar size, but faster, more explosive and agile. Weaponry & Bite Force The Amur tiger also has a much more devastating bite than any brown bear. The tiger's canines are more than (almost 8 cm!) 7 cm long, and even a tigress or young tiger has canines that dwarf the canines of even the largest brown bears. Why? because a tiger is solely born and built to kill, the brown bear is not, it's first and foremost a forager and scavenger. In fact, tigers have the largest canines of all the world's extant terrestrial carnivores. The tiger also has razor-sharp, retractable hooked claws, designed for gripping, tearing and mauling other animals, which inflicts more serious damage. The brown bear has longer, blunter claws, designed specifically for digging up roots and bulbs of plants, as well as to excavate den sites. The tigers claws are solely for killing, whereas the brown bears claws are for digging. Aramilev also said there's a difference in the way a tiger and brown bear inflict damage. Brown bears have smaller, weaker, and blunter canines, so when a bear bites, like a dog, it tears flesh, but their bite does not penetrate deep. But a tiger, with its stronger bite force and much longer, sharper canines, bites like a 'composter', he says, with fangs more than 7 cm long, which penetrates much deeper and inflicts much more lethal damage. An example: A large brown bear could never kill a tiger instantly with a single bite, bears simply lack the bite force, skill, and canines to do so, but a tiger does (and has) have the bite force and weapons to instantly kill even a large bear with a single bite to the nape of the neck. The male tiger Dima, with only 3 canines, instantly killed a large adult brown bear sow, with a single bite to the nape of the neck. Judging by the impressive size of the killed bear, Goodrich expected there to be signs of a struggle, instead, the large bear was instantly killed on the spot. The accounts below, confirm that a tiger can instantly dispatch large bears of similar-size with a single bite. Biologist Goodrich was shocked, that Dima was able to kill such a large bear, nearly his own size, instantly. He states: "The power and skill required to do that was unimaginable."  *This image is copyright of its original author Russian biologist, senior researcher & game-keeper (over 50 years of field experience) Yuri Dunishenko in his book: Amur Tiger - The Uncrowned Lord of the Taiga, 2021): stated that tigers even kill large bears with a single bite at the base of the skull:  *This image is copyright of its original author The Amur tigers predatory weapons and skills are far superior. This will make a clear difference in a serious fight. This is also why the tiger Odyr (a medium sized male) was able to hunt and kill a large male brown bear in a fight. To determine, who's, overall, superior in a fight, we have to look at observations made at a level of species, not individuals. It's what happens in general, is what counts, not what happens in exceptional cases and at the level of individuals. Exceptions will always exist in any rule, this is a fact of life. But what is the general rule? There's a good reason why most experienced biologists, forest rangers, hunters, and naturalists consistently testify to the Amur tigers dominance and superiority over the brown bear in a fight. There's a very good reason why most experienced Russian biologists, zoologists, rangers and hunters, favour the male tiger in a fight against even a very large male brown bear. According to majority of experts, male tigers and male brown bears are not on par, but the tiger is superior. This is based on observations, experiences and accounts. Biologist Sergei Aramilev (General Director of the Amur Tiger Center), who talks and works with many biologists, scientists, rangers, hunters, and locals, said a male tiger would 'always' kill ANY bear in a fight. And this comes from a highly respected, experienced, and knowledgeable authority. Aramilev spends a lot of time in the taiga with biologists, forest rangers, hunters, and natives. So his view speaks volumes. Biologists, rangers, and hunters (like pictured below) often sit in the taiga and share stories of their experiences and observations. Experts like Aramilev have spent many years collecting first hand data on tiger and bear interactions. Aramilev certainly knows, when an adult male tiger and large adult male brown bear clash, who will usually be victorious in a serious fight. Sergei Aramilev and Native (Udege) seasoned hunter & forest ranger, Vasily Dunkai sitting in the taiga during an expedition of tracking tigers:  *This image is copyright of its original author Russian zoologist & large predator specialist, S.P. Kucherenko (referring to tigers vs brown bears) states: "Even a large bear will not take an adult male tiger. On the contrary, I have come across large bears killed and eaten by tigers."... and ... "The average tiger is always stronger than the average bear." ... and ... "Tiger and brown bear fights are quite common. A tiger in the prime of life always crushes a bear, but not yet mature tigresses die from it." (Kucherenko 1985, 1994). Peter, note one thing, the vast majority of people who favor the male brown bear in a fight are completely unqualified, random, internet forum posters or fanboys who are mostly blinded by preference and bias. Whereas the vast majority of people who favor the tiger in a fight are actual real, experienced, qualified experts like biologists, zoologists, naturalists, forest rangers, and hunters. This is very telling. Many of those people you're talking about (who "favor" the adult male brown bear) know a tiger is more than capable of killing even a large male brown bear in a fight. But they won't admit it. They know an adult male brown bear can fall prey to a tiger, but they won't admit it. They know there are reliable cases of large male brown bears killed and eaten by tigers, but they won't admit it. They know, for a fact, that Odyr hunted and killed a large male brown bear in a fight, but they simply won't admit it. Why? because of extreme bias, preference, and emotions. It's very clear, that vast majority of evidence (expert views/observations, fight accounts, statistics, recent research, etc) is in the tigers favor. This is why all my posts on tigers and bears, which were filled with an abundance of factual information by experts, resulted in animosity from the opposing side. I agree, that for the most part, there's a (usual) mutual avoidance of fights between male tigers and male brown bears. I also agree, that both know a fight is risky. No doubt, that adult brown bears are very formidable and powerful animals. This is the reason why I'm impressed by Amur tigers for deliberately hunting down and killing such a large, powerful predator as food. I mean, what other predator (besides tigers) on earth will look at a full-grown brown bear of any gender, and say to itself, that's my lunch or dinner tonight? What other predator, except the tiger, has a healthy adult brown bear on it's menu? None. John Vaillant on Amur tigers vs Ussuri brown bears Vaillant did very diligent research (for those who don't know), he traveled to the Russian Far East and personally interviewed many Russian experts, biologists, zoologists, rangers, hunters, natives, etc. He even interviewed some American tiger biologists like Dale Miquelle and John Goodrich, who he quotes in his book. His book was exceptional, and he presented an abundance of factual information about the history of Russia, it's people, the natives, biologists, rangers, lifestyle of Russian hunters, and tiger ecology, behaviour, diet, etc. In his book, Vaillant (see previous post) is very explicit about the Amur tigers superiority and dominance over the brown bear. His statements about tigers vs brown bears was consistent with the Russian biologists, zoologists, rangers, and hunters, who all favour the tiger in a fight. Consistency is key. For those who want to arrogantly dismiss Vaillant's words, listen to this; in the 2nd part of his interview (2:16 mark) Vaillant says: "I took a lot of my information from the people who live and work with tigers, and have done so for their entire lives in the Far East. And there's no ambiguity in their mind about the vengeful nature of tigers under certain circumstances." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mek2JpGcH9U Strength and Power difference A large male Ussuri brown bear doesn't have the power advantage, the tiger certainly does. A large male brown bear has the brute strength advantage. Power is when you generate your strength in a fast and explosive fashion, with greater velocity and energy output. In this respect, the tiger simply outclasses any bear species. Strength is different from power. Here's a video I found of a brute strength comparison between an adult male grizzly bear and a male Bengal tiger; To me the tiger was clearly more impressive, and flipped over the heavier carcass easier. The bison is already half-eaten, whereas the partially-eaten bull gaur is more intact. The difference is, the tiger actually KILLED this bull gaur, whereas the grizzly bear is just scavenging: According to biologist Rukovsky's fight statistics, the tiger dominated the brown bear in fights, winning 11-2, which is a significant margin. Rukovsky talked to 42 experienced Russian hunters of the Primorsky Krai, 7 hunters also said that the tiger intentionally hunts brown bears. 14 hunters described tiger-brown bear fights without tragic outcomes, two reported cases where the bear strangled the tiger, and 11 cases where the tiger killed the bear, and finally, 2 hunters said that the (brown) bear leaves the territory where the tiger appeared. The effect the presence of tigers has on brown bear behavior seems to vary from individual to individual. But there's also no doubt, based on recent and very reliable reports & sources (2018 - 2024) that tigers reduce the population of Ussuri brown bears in the south of the Far East (Primorye & Khabarovsk territories) and in the Taipinggou Nature Reserve in Northeast China. American Naturalist, Joseph Kullmann also talked to experienced Russian hunters from the Primorsky territories, and again, as always, the hunters testified to the Amur tigers dominance over the brown bear in a fight. The hunters reported that the tiger is more often the winner, and also hunts the brown bear. There's a clear pattern and consistency in favour of the tiger. This is very telling. Olga Krasnykh (wildrussiantours) who talks and works with biologists, scientists and rangers in the Primorye region, who was contacted a couple of months ago by 'epaiva', stated: "Scientists can describe the situation on behalf of marks and battle signs in the snow. The dominant is the tiger, that's why the population of brown bears is rather low in our region comparing with other Far Eastern regions." Krasnykh (being consistent with various other biologists, zoologists, rangers & hunters) also states that the tiger is dominant over the brown bear, an observation made by experts judging the battle signs in the snow, in which the tiger usually wins. The reduction of the brown bear population in Primorye is not because of bears migrating to other regions to avoid tigers, it's because of tigers killing brown bears. In the Sikhote-Alin, tiger predation is the main natural cause of brown bear mortality. (Pikunov, Seryodkin). Monitoring, Survey, Utilization And Threats To The Populations Of Asiatic Black Bear and Brown Bear In Sikhote-Alin  *This image is copyright of its original author https://global.wcs.org/Resources/Publica...00000.aspx A large adult male brown bear and a male tiger are capable of killing each other in a fight, hence the usual avoidance of fights. However, when they do clash, who's the usual winner? Tiger. What does history and statistics show? Tiger usually wins. Who do most experienced experts and authorities favour? Tiger. Why was John Vaillant clear about the Amur tigers dominance and superiority over the brown bear? Because experts told him so. Why is the Amur tiger widely regarded as the undisputed 'Lord of the (Amur-Ussuri & Chinese) taiga by the natives, locals, rangers, hunters, zoologists, and biologists? Because the Amur tiger is the apex predator of the taiga, who regularly hunts and eats bears, and wins most fights. After the information (from Russian experts) I found and posted in recent years, the matter is clear to me, and the case is closed. Although an adult male brown bear is a worthy opponent for a tiger, the male Amur tiger is clearly superior and (as a rule) dominant over a large male brown bear in a fight, and is the usual winner. Most experienced Russian experts agree. And the recent case reported by Yuri Kya was just the nail in the coffin. I can post plenty more information and accounts, but the post will be way too long.
APEX
Good post with plenty of solid evidence supporting your conclusion on the outcome of an encounter between an adult wild male Amur tiger and an adult wild male Ussuri brown bear. The distinction you made (referring to wild and captive) is important, because the difference between wild and captive adults is significant, in particular in tigers. In tigers in particular, because all adult wild tigers are specialists. Less than half of all male cubs reach adulthood. When they disperse at 18-22 months of age, they roam for years in no man's land. It takes a long time to learn and to develop. When they reach adulthood at 5-6 years of age, they need to find, and learn how to defend, a territory. Even a mature territorial male is never sure and safe. He might be injured by another male, a wild boar or a male brown bear. He might face energy deficits when the wild boar population crashes as a result of a crop failure or a disease. He might be forced to leave his territory for months in search of food. This is not a hypothetical scenario. When the wild boar population crashed in Anyuisky, most, if not all, adult male tigers left the national park to find alternative food sources. Most were away for many months. The information you posted says a mature male Amur tiger has no enemies, but you know reality is a mix of a few general rules and lots of exceptions. You never know. The only thing we know is a captive male Amur tiger is a mere shadow of his wild relative. One of the trainers I interviewed told me captive adult tigers, compared to their wild relatives, are children. They never learned anything of value. Is this any different in herbivores or omnivores? To a degree. The difference between them and true carnivores is specialization. That and risks. All healthy wild tigers have the tools to develop into an apex predator, but learning when to act in the most fitting way takes a long time. Adult wild male tigers first and foremost are keen observers who know about calculations and risks. They also know one mistake could be the last. Experienced hunters thought wild tigers are thinking animals, able to reason to a degree. Same (referring to Stevenson Hamilton) for wild lions. Edits As you noticed, I often edit long posts. More often than not, the reason isn't content, but language. When you join a public forum and post, it's about good information and interaction. The information has to be correct, but it's important to present it in a way that can be understood by all. It's a great pity well-trained and experienced biologists often forget about access and interaction when they publish a paper or an article. Not a few documents are all but unreadable for the general public. I understand and then I don't. Transferring good information, in the end, is about a few solid conclusions and a good summary enabling readers to understand what you're saying and why you got to a conclusion. Future On could conclude your posts in this thread in particular say you're interested in interactions between wild Amur tigers and wild Ussuri brown bears and be close. You posted about them for years. In the end, you reached a conclusion. This means you consider your hypothesis regarding the outcome of an encounter between adult males of both species as confirmed. Case closed, you said in your last post. I largely agree and then I don't. What you, in my opinion, 'proved' is the assumed superiority of a mature wilde male Ussuri brown bear in a fight with a mature wild male Amur, to put it mildly, is questionable. Those interested in bears most probably disagree, but that's an assaumption only because we don't have members interested in bears anymore. The reason most left is legal problems, meaning they often ignored the rules of conduct when interacting. The question is what would have happened if they would have opted for a different approach. We'll never know, but could give it a try. Meaning I'll try to represent those interested in bears from now on. This means my aim is to question your hypothesis about (the usual outcome of) an interaction between an adult wild male Amur tiger and an adult wild male Ussuri brown bear. Here's a few questions to start the discussion. Questions 1 - There's no proof adult male Ussuri brown bears are killed by adult male Amur tigers on a regular basis In your last post, you quoted a number of people considered to be 'in the know' about Amur tigers and Ussuri brown bears. They agree male Amur tigers always (very different from 'nearly always' or 'most') win a fight with an adult male Ussuri brown bear. Let's assume they're right. The next question, of course, is why biologists, rangers and hunters only very seldom find remains of an adult male Ussuri brown bear killed by an adult male Amur tiger in the Russian Far East. This is remarkable, because many peer-reviewed documents about the prey preference of wild Amur tigers have been published in the last three decades. These documents suggest bears, in some regions and seasons, are important food sources. Although biologists agree experienced male Amur tigers in particular prey on bears up to their own size or a bit heavier, I've yet to read a document in which it is stated adult male Ussuri brown bears are regular prey items. Did biologists, rangers and hunters miss something, or is it possible adult wild male Amur tigers, in spite of their abilities in a fight, deliberately avoid adult wild male Ussuri brown bears? This is what many assume and the information available seems to support this conclusion. 2 - The difference of opinion between authorities today and authorities half a century ago You no doubt read about Sysoev and Krechmar. Both thought an adult male Amur tiger is no match for an adult male Ussuri brown bear. On a Russian forum, Krechmar, a few years ago, said the this outcome isn't a result of the difference in size and strength. Sysoev, very experienced as well, agreed. His story about a fight between a male tiger and an emaciated 'Shatun' (referring to 'Amba') suggests he might have witnessed encounters between males of both species. While I agree they didn't produce solid evidence of an adult male Amur tiger killed by an adult male Ussuri brown bear, it is remarkable both are outspoken about the outcome of a fight between a male Amur tiger and a male Ussuri brown bear. How do you explain the difference of opinion between them and the authorities you quoted? 3 - Causes of death of wild Amur tigers Some years ago, a document about the causes of death of wild Amur tigers found dead in the period 1970-1992 was discussed in this thread. One male Amur tiger was killed by a brown bear in 1972. Other male tigers had injuries inflicted by brown bears. The document didn't offer a lot of information, but it suggests not every adult male Amur tiger is able to win a fight with a brown bear. Those who survived a fight sustained serious, often disabling, injuries. Is it possible today's authorities, when discussing the outcome of a fight between an adult male Amur tiger and an adult male Ussuri brown bear, referred to healthy mature male tigers only? 4 - Home range, individual variation and health problems A few years ago, a great monograph translated into English was discussed in this thread. I'm referring to 'Winter ecology of the Amur tiger based upon observations in the west-central Sichote-Alin Mountains, 1970-1973, 1996-2010' (A.G. Yudakov and I.G. Nikolaev, translated by M. Jones and J.C. Slaght, 2012). The book is based on knowledge collected in the tradional way by two very able biologists. The hard way, that is. And I mean hard: " ... I literally owe Igor (Nikolaev) for saving my life from a moment of my own stupidity when a bear was ready to eat us both. While I can never adequately repay that debt, ensuring this monograph remains alive and in print is one small way of saying 'Thank you, Igor' ... ('Winter ecology of the Amur tiger', 2012, pp.4). Miquelle wrote: " ... If you want to know about Siberian tigers, and the people who study them, this is the place to start ... " (Editor's foreword). I couldn't agree more. It's a great book in many respects. It's one of the few that has good information about the 'heel width' of (40!) wild Amur tigers ranging between 3 months and 18-20 years of age. Three adult males they knew ranged between 10.5-12,0 cm. One of them (heel width 11,5 cm) died in a fight with another male (heel width 12,0 cm) in January 1973. The male killed had a pathology of the paw bone. In spite of that problem, he was able to reach maturity in quite good health (he was 192 kg when he died). This male succeeded in avoiding the other males and apparently did so for years. What I'm saying is there are adult male tigers and adult male tigers. The male with a heel width of 10,5 cm was nicknamed 'Khozyain' ('Master'). The male with a heel width of 12,0 cm was known as 'Moguchyi' ('Mighty'). The male he killed was nicknamed 'Lenivyi' ('Lazy'). His trails " ... were not as patterned as Khozyain's and it was difficult to determine the external boundaries of his home range ... All that was clear was that he moved among the home ranges of two neighboring, territorial tigers ('Khozyain' and 'Moguchyi'), and his encounter with the latter cost him his life ... " ('Winter ecology of the Amur tiger', pp. 70). When discussing the outcome of (hypothetical) confrontatations between adult male Amur tigers and adult male brown bears, posters interested in tigers often refer to mature, large individuals with a fixed territory. The home range of other males, however, seem to be more fluid. In the case discussed above, there was a good reason. But 'Lenivye', in spite of his problem, was a mature male with a home range. My guess is he wasn't the only one who, as a result of a problem, was unable to create a home range with strict borders. Apart from that (health problems), there's individuality. The names Yudakov and Nikolaev used for the other two males underline every individual has a specific character. While one male will try to avoid a confrontation with a dangerous opponent, another might act in a different way. It depends on the individual, the circumstances and the day. Size, as you said, doesn't seem to be a decisive factor in encounters between species. A fight is about tools, training and abilities, but character and determination could be as important. Would 'Lenivyi', to be more specific, have been willing to confront a mature male brown bear near his kill? And, if so, would he have been able to win, or survive, a fight? Not likely, one would think. But the other two males might have been very capable in the bear department. In India, every adult male tiger seems to have a specific home range he'll defend. Those who lose a fight often move to the fringes of the forest, where they meet villagers. In the Russian Far East, the human population is lower, enabling tigers without a territory to survive without conflicts with humans. Some hunt dogs in villages and are sent to rehab, but others may be able to avoid problems. Individuality. To conclude Today's authorities no doubt have good reasons to favour an adult male tiger in a fight with an adult male brown bear, but it also is a fact opinions changed over time. Apart from that, it's strange biologists, rangers and hunters only very seldom find the remains of an adult male brown bear killed by a male tiger. The document about the causes of death and the book discussed above suggest one, perhaps, has to distinguish between healthy individuals and those suffering from problems. It's quite possible males troubled by health issues try to avoid determined male tigers and male brown bears. All this, of course, is still without brown bears. My guess is individualism in male brown bears is as outspoken as in male Amur tigers. While some may be large and overweight, others could be fit, tiger experienced and battle tested. That's still apart from desperate, non-hibernating bears prepared to engage anyone anywhere. Meaning reality is a mixed bag. You just never know. Could this be the reason male tigers and male brown bears, apart from the occasional exception, decided for mutual avoidance? (09-05-2024, 06:55 AM)peter Wrote: APEX Great idea, Peter. I want you to question my hypothesis, now this gives me the opportunity to prove that the information I post is not biased at all. Remember, when I joined this forum in 2021, you gave both 'Shadow' and 'Brobear' (who have a clear preference and bias for bears) the opportunity to debate me on tigers vs bears in this thread, but instead, they declined, and left this forum and decided to post their biased opinions, insults, and nonsensical comments on another forum dedicated to bears. What does this show? To make it clear to everyone. 'Shadow' and 'Brobear' were never banned from this forum, you can see their account profiles. They decided to leave. Funny, that you openly welcomed them to challenge my posts, post their "information", and debate me, so this thread doesn't look one-sided, but they rejected, and decided to leave the forum. I wonder why! Also, they even tried to ridicule very reputable and experienced biologists like Batalov, and 'Shadow' even falsely accused Vaillant of deliberately writing "fiction" and lies in his book. Which was absolutely ridiculous. So this was the pathetic level the bear posters were willing to stoop to, instead of accepting good, factual information reported by expert authorities. When liars know their nonsense and (deliberate) misinformation is about to get exposed, they run away. With you questioning my posts will be much better. As to your questions, I'll answer them when I have some time. I have the answers.
VIDEOS OF WILD ANIMALS IN THE RUSSIAN FAR EAST - 2 - BOHAI TOURS (2)
The video below was uploaded today (September 8, 2024). It has footage shot in two national parks and two reserves. Some of the animals in the video are very rare indeed (not referring to Amur leopards and Amur tigers). The beauty of the spots where the footage was shot is stunning. The Russian Far East really is quite something to behold. Pay attention to the cats in particular. Nearly all of them are aware of the camera. Small cats up to the size of a lynx often quickly try to get out of sight. Big cats also don't like being seen, but they're more curious. Curiosity, as the proverb says, often prevails. Bears compare in the curiosity department, but they like a bit of research. In the Russian Far East, they not seldom remove or destroy a camera. You may have noticed tigers (not leopards and lynxes) are often followed and contacted by crowlike birds. The Amur tigress at the start of the video is very aware of the bird. When you watch closely, you can see her 'talk' to the bird. I also saw it in housecats. The difference between small and big cats is small cats start 'talking' just before they try to catch the bird. Wild (not captive) big cats also 'talk' to (some) birds, but they, as far as I know (not referring to vultures), never try to catch them. Wild big cats often use (rail)roads to patrol their territory. It's an excellent, and energycheap, way to observe the surroundings. Not seldom, a big cat using a road or railroad isn't aware of other users like cars and trains. My guess is they're very relaxed when they use a road. Big cats in particular like overview. Like the tigress at the start of the video, they often select elevated, sunny spots to observe and relax. The other animals in the video (deer, martens, badgers) do not seem to be very aware of their surroundings. They are, of course, but not in the way cats are. They seem to focus on what's right in front of them and use their eyes and nose in particular. Small mammals always seem ready to move at any moment. Cats, more so than smaller mammals, rely on their ears. They often walk slowly, move in a deliberate way (from a to b) and try to save energy. Wild boars do not seem to be too interested in their surroundings. Like most smaller mammals, they seem to use their eyesight and nose in particular. Same for bears. Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciSzugmBQXo
@peter
I'll make a 2 part post to answer your questions. In the 2nd part, I'll address Sysoev and Krechmar's opinions. The information below will confirm that adult male brown bears are certainly prey for tigers, and are occasionally hunted and eaten. Biologists also agree that large bears are prey of tigers. As to your 1st question: The reason the evidence of tiger predation on adult male brown bears is so limited, is because various biologists did a terrible job at specifying the details about some cases. For example, biologist Matyushkin found (in the hunting grounds of a tiger) the remains of an adult brown bear killed and eaten by a tiger, but unfortunately, he never specified the bear's gender. Biologist Kucherenko (in addition to some large brown bears killed and eaten by tigers) reported 7 cases of adult brown bears 'crushed' by tigers, but unfortunately, even he didn't specify the bears genders. However (see below), Kucherenko did report that he's observed at least several cases of large brown bears killed and eaten by tigers. The weight range he gave (200-300 kg) of the killed bears, clearly indicates that adult male brown bears were killed by tigers. Biologist Bromley found the carcass of a 170 kg adult brown bear mauled, killed, and partially eaten by a tigress in spring, but unfortunately, even he failed to specify the killed brown bear's gender. Biologist V. Mazak also mentioned that the 170 kg brown bear was an 'adult bear' killed by the tigress, but even he also never specified the gender of the killed bear. Biologist Rakov reported a case of a tiger that killed a large brown bear along the Svetlaya river. The tiger lived near the bear kill for 10 days until he consumed it, but Rakov also failed to specify the killed brown bear's gender. Now, the question is, why do biologists often fail to specify the gender of 'adult' or 'large' brown bears hunted, killed, and eaten by tigers? It's because of this common mistake, the relationship dynamics (referring to predation on adult male brown bears) between Amur tigers and adult male brown bears is left ambiguous. What a shame. All biologists had to do was clarify the genders of the killed adult brown bears and then we would have a much clearer picture. But they failed. However, based on plenty of hard evidence I've seen and read about, there's absolutely no doubt that adult male brown bears, including large males, are certainly on the tigers menu. There are just too many reliable accounts and sources that indicate this. It doesn't matter which frequency adult male brown bears are killed at, the fact that sometimes they do get hunted, killed, and eaten by tigers, confirms that even large male brown bears are prey for tigers. Vaillant also stated: "There is no creature in the taiga that is off limits to the tiger." He notes that Amur tigers eat everything from salmon, ducks, wolves to adult brown bears. V.G. Yudin (biologist, tiger ecologist & senior researcher) reports that black and brown bears are regularly hunted by tigers in summer. And reported that LARGE bears are prey for adult male tigers. DIET OF LARGE PREDATORS ( ON THE EXAMPLE OF THE TIGER ): METHODOLOGICAL ANALYSIS - 2008 V.G. Yudin "The badger (a numerous, widespread and accessible species), the raccoon dog, hares (white hare and Manchurian), birds and other small animals, that in summer, along with roe deer and bears (Himalayan and Brown), take on the main pressure of tiger predation."  *This image is copyright of its original author "An adult male (tiger) has physical access not only to bull deer, but even to large bears and billhooks (large, mature male wild boar)."  *This image is copyright of its original author When Amur tigers hunt brown bears, they usually prefer to target adult female brown bears, than adult male brown bears. Why? because a female brown bear (150-200 kg) will provide the tiger with a good amount of meat for a week, but also poses less risk, and a higher chance of a quick kill. And even then, in some cases, large female brown bears can put up a tough, prolonged fight before being killed. Although male tigers are more than capable of killing even the largest male brown bears in a head-on fight, and by ambush, hunting adult male brown bears (265 - 280 kg average weight) on a regular basis significantly increases the chances of a fight taking place or injuries, which a tiger, as a solitary predator, cannot afford to do regularly. So hunting adult female brown bears more often makes more sense for a tiger, as they (adult female brown bears) are large animals, but easier to kill than an adult male brown bear who is significantly heavier than an average male tiger (200 kg). So that's why there's no proof of tigers hunting adult male brown bears on a "regular basis". In spite of the adult male brown bears weight advantage, they are, no doubt, sometimes hunted and killed by tigers, as there are several reliable cases documented by biologists, rangers, and hunters of Amur tigers killing mostly large male brown bears. Biologist, Kucherenko's Observations S.P. Kucherenko has, in several cases, personally found the remains of large brown bears (200-300 kg) killed and eaten by tigers: "Our numerous observations have also shown that an adult tiger eats a piglet of average fatness (about 30 kilograms) or half a two-year-old sow in one sitting. A tiger usually eats a red deer or a wild boar weighing 150-200 kilograms in a week. The animal lives for 8-10 days near a crushed large bear (weighing 200-300 kg, 2-3 'centners')." "Of all animals, only a large brown bear can overcome it. And even then, the victims are usually young, not yet strong tigers or tiger cubs. Even a large bear will not take an adult tiger. On the contrary, I have encountered large bears killed and eaten by a tiger. An average tiger is always stronger than an average bear." https://litresp.ru/chitat/ru/%D0%9A/kuch...bya-doma/6 According to Kucherenko's personal (and numerous) observations, adult male brown bears certainly fall prey to tigers from time to time. He's seen multiple cases. Note, 200-300 kg is in the weight range of fully-grown adult male brown bears. Also, just like biologists Aramilev and Dunishenko said, Kucherenko said even a large brown bear cannot defeat an adult male tiger. Here's another confirmed case from a scientific study on Amur tiger predation. This case strongly suggests that the tiger hunted and killed an adult male brown bear. Why? because the male bear was able to fend off the tigers initial attack, a young brown bear wouldn't have been able to. Young brown bears are easy pickings for a tiger. Search of Prey and Tactic of Hunting of the Amur Tiger (Panthera tigris altaica). "In winter 1982, L.V. Kirsta, chief forester of the Reserve, and A.D. Saiko observed a tiger chasing a male brown bear for more than 500 meters. Attacking the bear running away along the valley of the key from the terrace of the narrow end of the watershed and failing to kill it, the tiger jumped hundreds of meters to intercept the bear, from where it made a new ambush attack, trying to claw its neck. As a result, the tiger managed to capture the male bear." https://www.researchgate.net/publication...is_altaica This was a clear-cut case of a tiger persistently hunting down a male brown bear and killing him. Again, the fact that the bear was able to fend off the tigers initial attack, suggests that it was an adult male brown bear. Tigress kills a large male brown bear ('Meetings with the Amur Tiger', 2005 - S.P. Kucherenko) In his book, biologist Kucherenko recollects a factual account of a tigress that deliberately stalked and killed a large, adult male brown bear much larger than herself. Judging by the description, the tigress was clearly very skilled and experienced at killing bears. This is an eyewitness account from a very seasoned and hereditary hunter named Andrey Efremovich, who saw a tigress hunt and kill a big male brown bear in autumn. He personally told this incident to biologist Kucherenko. Here's the account: https://litmir.club/br/?b=170047&p=33 About the book: 'Meetings with the Amur Tiger' and the author: The author of the book is a famous Far Eastern writer, scientist, biologist-game expert, candidate of biological sciences. For many years he has been studying the ecology of the tiger. Stories about the meetings with the ruler of the Ussuri taiga, written on factual material, allow us to learn about the habits and lifestyle of a rare predator listed in the Red Book." https://royallib.com/book/kucherenko_ser...igrom.html https://www.labirint.ru/books/475154/ Here's Krechmar's take on this book: "Sergey Petrovich Kucherenko has published another book about the Amur tiger. This time it is a popular science publication, which tells about the numerous encounters with the tiger in the taiga." "S. Kucherenko and E. Smirnov were the undisputed champions in encounters with this predator." https://kiowa-mike.livejournal.com/126404.html Picture depicting the tigress pouncing on the large male brown bear from a boulder: (Based on a factual eyewitness account)  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Russian biologist E. Smirnov and his team, followed the fresh tracks of a tiger steadfastly hunting down a large brown bear. Unfortunately, Smirnov and his team returned back to camp before it got dark, so they never found out if the tiger had killed the large brown bear. But, this case also undoubtedly proves that Amur tigers indeed prey on large brown bears. Experienced hunter Valery Yankovsky also found the remains of a very large male brown bear killed and eaten by a large male tiger near the Sungari river. Yankovsky never found signs of a struggle, which suggests that the tiger had killed the huge male brown bear swiftly with one bite. Can a large tiger kill large brown bears with a single bite at the base of the skull? 100% yes, confirmed by my previous post. (Goodrich, Dunishenko). Although Yankovsky in his book: 'Tiger, Deer, Ginseng' never gave specific details about the killed bear's species or gender, he did however, specify the details about the killed bear to renowned Czech biologist & zoologist V. Mazak via personal letter. In his book, Yankovsky did mention that the bear had a "large head" and paw. 'Tiger, Deer, Ginseng' - V. Yankovsky: Shin says: the tiger roared deafeningly, fell over, but immediately jumped up and, in three leaps, reached the forest, disappeared, dissolved in it. For some time the noise of jumping, breaking bushes was heard, then everything became quiet. At the place of the bed Shin found blood, next to it - a large head and the remains of a bear's paw: apparently the ruler was resting after a hearty breakfast." https://coollib.in/b/261421-valeriy-yure...nshen/read Some time later, Yankovsky wrote a letter to biologist Mazak, and specifically mentioned that the tiger had killed and eaten a very large male brown bear. Mazak mentions this fact in his book: 'Der Tiger'. Mazak wrote: (Credits to Peter who initially posted this account) "To complete the information on this giant tiger, I should perhaps mention that Yankovsky wrote that the tiger had killed and eaten a very large male brown bear a few days before he was shot, of which only a leg and the head, found by Yankovsky, remained."....  *This image is copyright of its original author Biologist Mazak even drew a sketch depicting a tiger killing an adult male brown bear: *This image is copyright of its original author Amur tigers have been hunting bears for many thousands of years. And just in a century's worth of literature, we already have numerous accounts of tigers hunting and killing large brown bears, and interestingly, most of which were large male brown bears killed and eaten. So imagine, throughout many millennia, there must have been hundreds, if not, thousands of adult male brown bears hunted, killed and eaten by tigers in the extremely vast and remote Amur-Ussuri taiga forests. Modern scientific studies & research shows that Amur tigers mainly prey on adult bears. And some of the killed bears were large, similar in size to their killers (adult male tigers). And of course, we have the most recent case of a medium-sized male tiger 'Odyr' who hunted and killed a large 'impressive sized' adult male brown bear in a fight (November, 2022). According to old and modern scientific literature and research (all biologists and researchers agree): "Amur tigers prey on adult brown bears"... not adult "female" brown bears, but biologists say: "adult brown bears". Biologists have never excluded adult male brown bears as prey for tigers. I've never seen anywhere (no book, no scientific study, no article, etc) where an actual biologist who studies wild Amur tigers and bears, has stated that adult males, including large males, brown bears are "immune" to tiger predation. Nowhere. All biologists agree that "Amur tigers are the main natural enemy and predator of adult brown bears" in the south of the Far East (Amur-Ussuri taiga). Was a highly experienced and seasoned ranger like Yuri Kya shocked at the fact that Odyr was able to hunt and kill a larger, adult male brown bear in a head-on fight? No. Like all Far East Russian biologists, zoologists, hunters, and rangers, Yuri Kya knows that bears are common prey of tigers. And adult bears are regularly hunted and killed. But in many cases, biologists and rangers are unable to determine the sex or age of the bear killed, because the tiger has already consumed most of the bear. So there could easily have been numerous cases of adult male brown bears that were killed and eaten by tigers in recent times. Also note, majority of the remains of bears (killed by tigers) are found in tiger excrement. Not carcasses, which are much harder to find. Biologist Sergey Kolchin has repeatedly found the remains (fur and bone fragments) of brown bears in tiger excrement, but was unable to determine the bears sizes or genders. According to Kolchin's observations, brown bears are common prey for adult male tigers. Also remember, Amur tigers (except for a few juveniles in 2014) are not radio-collared and tracked anymore. Their kills are not being tracked and monitored by biologists. Those days of radio-collaring field research are long gone. So what are the chances of biologists these days finding adult male brown bears killed by tigers? Very, very low. Yuri Kya was lucky that he happened to be in the right place, at the right time, during a forest raid. All in all, although the information suggests that adult male brown bears are not hunted on a "regular basis", there's no doubt that they are occasionally hunted and killed by experienced adult tigers, which means they are certainly on the menu. |
| Users browsing this thread: |
| 15 Guest(s) |