Felids Interactions - Interspecific Conflicts

[Luipaard]

(02-21-2023, 10:53 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(02-21-2023, 10:26 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(02-21-2023, 08:18 PM)Pckts Wrote: It’s always funny to hear people claim Leopards to be Tigress sized. Here’s a perfect example of the differences between a tigress and male leopard. With regards to the encounter, the leopard is strictly defensive and nothing more.

Just because extremely large male leopards can be tigress/lioness-sized doesn't mean every male leopard is. I don't know why you're basing this off a random interaction in Panna National Park. I doubt that an Indian leopard would grow to such an extent when data shows they struggle hard to reach 80kg plus there's no reason to approach such sizes when competing with larger predators. I shouldn't tell you this because you know this very well.

Dr. Mohammad Farhadinia was one of the authors of a newsletter where measurements were given of one of the largest Persian leopard skulls. They concluded the individual was as large as an adult female tiger that once roamed in Golestan National Park which means they were talking about a Caspian tigress (weight range 85-135kg). Now I know your logic by now, you'll assume they were saying the leopard basically weighed 85kg so it was as big as a small Caspian tiger but I doubt that since Caspian tigresses' minimum skull length was 268 mm compared to the 281 mm long Persian leopard skull in this case. 

Measurements of 16 Bengal tiger skulls:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Minimum skull length: 280 mm
Minimum skull width: 177 mm

For leopards (overall):
Maximum skull length: 282 mm
Maximum skull width: 191 mm

This is excluding the biggest leopard skull ever with a condylobasal length of 264 mm (compared to the minimum condylobasal length of 255 mm in this tiger sample). I'm not into tiger skull data so it's possible there are even smaller Bengal tiger skulls.

By the way, nobody here said anything about 'tigress-sized' leopards except for you. Pantherine AKA Balam too was recently spreading nonsense of people saying leopards (as in general) are tigress-sized when in reality it's about the biggest male leopards out there. What a coincidence right?

But yes there are male leopards who have the right to be called tigress/lioness-sized and data supports this. Perhaps you should tell Dr. Mohammad Farhadinia how funny it is what he said about that large Persian leopard skull?

When did skulls determine the size of the cat?
The largest skulls measured don't correlate to the largest cat measured and regardless  an "extremely large leopard" is 90kg, that would be an extremely small Tigress/Lioness. And still that Tigress/Lioness would be much larger in frame just very skinny in mass. 
Make it simple, show me a single Leopards body dimensions that compare to an average Lioness/Tigress. 
Lets see the "Data support this."

Quote:When did skulls determine the size of the cat?
The largest skulls measured don't correlate to the largest cat measured

The bigger the skull the larger the cat. Sure one individual can have a bigger skull than another one while weighing less but in this case we're dealing with male leopards walking around with tigress/lioness-size skulls. Leopards do not have proportionally larger skulls than tigers so there's no way those male leopards are of average size.

Quote:and regardless  an "extremely large leopard" is 90kg, that would be an extremely small Tigress/Lioness.

An extremely large male leopard can weigh more than 90kg since that isn't even the maximum recorded weight. You may agree or disagree, but the largest male leopards can reach or surpass 100kg.

Quote:And still that Tigress/Lioness would be much larger in frame just very skinny in mass.

There are lionesses in Central and West Africa who are adult and thus not 'extremely small':

*This image is copyright of its original author

A mother lioness weighing 90kg is definitely within range of the bigger male leopards. I'm not counting in the 80kg one since she was recovering but likely weighed around 90-100kg. Also that recovering lioness is as tall as the largest male leopards, being around 80cm tall. So I doubt these lionesses would be "much larger in frame". And don't forget we're talking about the largest male leopards, before you go think male leopards are lioness-sized in general...

Also you say some jaguars are "legitimately Lioness/Tigress sized.", but in terms of shoulder height those jaguars are basically leopard-sized, thus tigresses/lionesses will appear bigger but skinnier in mass. Literally the same excuse you use in the leopard case.
You may want to take another look at the abdominal girth of Shaka and Joker by the way. It's not normal to have a greater abdominal girth than the chest girth. This implies the animal isn't empty at all. 

Quote:Make it simple, show me a single Leopards body dimensions that compare to an average Lioness/Tigress.
Lets see the "Data support this."

You know very well there are leopards out there with similar body measurements of lionesses/tigresses, but their body measurements are unknown. The biggest male leopard with known body measurements is a mature male weighing between 69-75kg and had a chest girth of 94 cm.
Here are body measurements of an adolescent tigress weighing circa 100kg:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://wildtigerhealthcentre.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Report_on_Philibhit_tigress_rescue_09Jun20_edited.pdf

Now scale that male leopard to 100kg. You do the math, or ask your buddy Pantherine/Balam.

I forgot to ask you this but since you find it funny when people call leopards tigress-sized, what do you actually think of people calling certain male jaguars "pleistocene-sized" and "weighing around 170kg"? Is that funny too? Reply

[AndresVida]

(02-22-2023, 12:17 AM)Styx38 Wrote: Would this count as an interaction?

Here is a Gorilla-Leopard interaction that was filmed for a documentary. It does look heavily edited.

Many documentaries sadly show heavily edited interactions trying to use 10+ different clips depicting 5 different individuals (sometimes not even of the same sex) of the same species sometimes in completely different habitats  and claiming it to be always those two specific individuals fighting the whole time.

Unfortunately it also happened in my favorite leopard documentary "legadema" where many hunts claimed to be practiced by her were actually done by her mother (I am exceptionally good at identifying leopards by rosettes so their lies didn't get me).
Moreover that video title says it all and I specifically know the individual who shared it, he's a huge leopard hater (but as a whole he's a cat hater generally) and he's also the one who claims that a gorilla would boxe to death even a tiger or a grizzly bear, but as you invade his discord servers filled with lies and provide evidence that counters his argument he readily flees the server and blocks you. Reply

[Rage2277]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Co5WxiwKH...mMyMTA2M2Y= nice tussle between a lioness and male leopard he barely escaped, got a spinal wound too Reply

[sanjay]

Very interesting interaction between a Tigress and Male Leopard

Reply

[Pckts]

(02-22-2023, 03:49 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(02-21-2023, 10:53 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(02-21-2023, 10:26 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(02-21-2023, 08:18 PM)Pckts Wrote: It’s always funny to hear people claim Leopards to be Tigress sized. Here’s a perfect example of the differences between a tigress and male leopard. With regards to the encounter, the leopard is strictly defensive and nothing more.

Just because extremely large male leopards can be tigress/lioness-sized doesn't mean every male leopard is. I don't know why you're basing this off a random interaction in Panna National Park. I doubt that an Indian leopard would grow to such an extent when data shows they struggle hard to reach 80kg plus there's no reason to approach such sizes when competing with larger predators. I shouldn't tell you this because you know this very well.

Dr. Mohammad Farhadinia was one of the authors of a newsletter where measurements were given of one of the largest Persian leopard skulls. They concluded the individual was as large as an adult female tiger that once roamed in Golestan National Park which means they were talking about a Caspian tigress (weight range 85-135kg). Now I know your logic by now, you'll assume they were saying the leopard basically weighed 85kg so it was as big as a small Caspian tiger but I doubt that since Caspian tigresses' minimum skull length was 268 mm compared to the 281 mm long Persian leopard skull in this case. 

Measurements of 16 Bengal tiger skulls:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Minimum skull length: 280 mm
Minimum skull width: 177 mm

For leopards (overall):
Maximum skull length: 282 mm
Maximum skull width: 191 mm

This is excluding the biggest leopard skull ever with a condylobasal length of 264 mm (compared to the minimum condylobasal length of 255 mm in this tiger sample). I'm not into tiger skull data so it's possible there are even smaller Bengal tiger skulls.

By the way, nobody here said anything about 'tigress-sized' leopards except for you. Pantherine AKA Balam too was recently spreading nonsense of people saying leopards (as in general) are tigress-sized when in reality it's about the biggest male leopards out there. What a coincidence right?

But yes there are male leopards who have the right to be called tigress/lioness-sized and data supports this. Perhaps you should tell Dr. Mohammad Farhadinia how funny it is what he said about that large Persian leopard skull?

When did skulls determine the size of the cat?
The largest skulls measured don't correlate to the largest cat measured and regardless  an "extremely large leopard" is 90kg, that would be an extremely small Tigress/Lioness. And still that Tigress/Lioness would be much larger in frame just very skinny in mass. 
Make it simple, show me a single Leopards body dimensions that compare to an average Lioness/Tigress. 
Lets see the "Data support this."

Quote:When did skulls determine the size of the cat?
The largest skulls measured don't correlate to the largest cat measured

The bigger the skull the larger the cat. Sure one individual can have a bigger skull than another one while weighing less but in this case we're dealing with male leopards walking around with tigress/lioness-size skulls. Leopards do not have proportionally larger skulls than tigers so there's no way those male leopards are of average size.

Quote:and regardless  an "extremely large leopard" is 90kg, that would be an extremely small Tigress/Lioness.

An extremely large male leopard can weigh more than 90kg since that isn't even the maximum recorded weight. You may agree or disagree, but the largest male leopards can reach or surpass 100kg.

Quote:And still that Tigress/Lioness would be much larger in frame just very skinny in mass.

There are lionesses in Central and West Africa who are adult and thus not 'extremely small':

*This image is copyright of its original author

A mother lioness weighing 90kg is definitely within range of the bigger male leopards. I'm not counting in the 80kg one since she was recovering but likely weighed around 90-100kg. Also that recovering lioness is as tall as the largest male leopards, being around 80cm tall. So I doubt these lionesses would be "much larger in frame". And don't forget we're talking about the largest male leopards, before you go think male leopards are lioness-sized in general...

Also you say some jaguars are "legitimately Lioness/Tigress sized.", but in terms of shoulder height those jaguars are basically leopard-sized, thus tigresses/lionesses will appear bigger but skinnier in mass. Literally the same excuse you use in the leopard case.
You may want to take another look at the abdominal girth of Shaka and Joker by the way. It's not normal to have a greater abdominal girth than the chest girth. This implies the animal isn't empty at all. 

Quote:Make it simple, show me a single Leopards body dimensions that compare to an average Lioness/Tigress.
Lets see the "Data support this."

You know very well there are leopards out there with similar body measurements of lionesses/tigresses, but their body measurements are unknown. The biggest male leopard with known body measurements is a mature male weighing between 69-75kg and had a chest girth of 94 cm.
Here are body measurements of an adolescent tigress weighing circa 100kg:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://wildtigerhealthcentre.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Report_on_Philibhit_tigress_rescue_09Jun20_edited.pdf

Now scale that male leopard to 100kg. You do the math, or ask your buddy Pantherine/Balam.

I forgot to ask you this but since you find it funny when people call leopards tigress-sized, what do you actually think of people calling certain male jaguars "pleistocene-sized" and "weighing around 170kg"? Is that funny too?

Quote:The bigger the skull the larger the cat. Sure one individual can have a bigger skull than another one while weighing less but in this case we're dealing with male leopards walking around with tigress/lioness-size skulls. Leopards do not have proportionally larger skulls than tigers so there's no way those male leopards are of average size.

No, you're dealing with Leopards walking around with small Tigress/Lioness Skulls and once again they don't correlate to the largest weights or dimensions. 
And Leopards don't have proportionally larger skulls, hence a Sumatran Tiger being Jaguar sized but having even larger skulls than them. 

Quote:An extremely large male leopard can weigh more than 90kg since that isn't even the maximum recorded weight. You may agree or disagree, but the largest male leopards can reach or surpass 100kg.

100s of Leopards weighed, less than a handful that have reached 90kg. So once again, that's an extremely large Leopard and that would be considered an extremely small Tigress/Lioness.

Quote:There are lionesses in Central and West Africa who are adult and thus not 'extremely small':

So we should now use the smallest population of Lions to compare?
How about using any real population of Lions that haven't been decimated by poaching and is down to 20 adults or so. Once again trying to twist the facts.

Quote:Also you say some jaguars are "legitimately Lioness/Tigress sized.", but in terms of shoulder height those jaguars are basically leopard-sized, thus tigresses/lionesses will appear bigger but skinnier in mass. Literally the same excuse you use in the leopard case.

You may want to take another look at the abdominal girth of Shaka and Joker by the way. It's not normal to have a greater abdominal girth than the chest girth. This implies the animal isn't empty at all. 

Jokers shoulder height-80cm
Of the 5 Tigress in Cooch Behars with shoulder heights, 4 are sub 900mm and the average difference is 3'' 
Jokers Body length is longer than 10/17 and longer than their average overall
His chest girth is larger than all of them
His weight is more than most 

Hence him being legitimately Lioness/Tigress sized. 

And what are you talking about, it's absolutely normal to have greater abdominal than chest girth, especially if their is food content. Not to mention, Jokers abdominal girth is less than his chest girth. 

Quote:You know very well there are leopards out there with similar body measurements of lionesses/tigresses, but their body measurements are unknown. The biggest male leopard with known body measurements is a mature male weighing between 69-75kg and had a chest girth of 94 cm.

Here are body measurements of an adolescent tigress weighing circa 100kg:

I know very well there absolutely isn't a Leopard that has "similar body dimensions" to a Lioness/Tigress. 
And we have a persian leopard that is most likely either the 86 or 88kg one mentioned that not only is based off a taxidermied individual but still cant even outsize a female Pantanal Jaguar yet somehow you want to try and compare it a Lioness/Tigress.

And I'm confused, how does comparing any Leopard to an adolescent Tigress that outweighs any of them, has a larger chest girth than any of them and is much taller than any of them backs your claim?

Quote:I forgot to ask you this but since you find it funny when people call leopards tigress-sized, what do you actually think of people calling certain male jaguars "pleistocene-sized" and "weighing around 170kg"? Is that funny too?

Well considering there almost 0 verifiable information on "pleistocene-sized" Jaguars, yes I think it's incorrect. Also any claim of them being 170kg isn't based off of fact. Reply

[Pckts]

(02-22-2023, 08:40 PM)Rage2277 Wrote: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Co5WxiwKH...mMyMTA2M2Y= nice tussle between a lioness and male leopard he barely escaped, got a spinal wound too

Definitely in bad shape, again showing the size discrepancy between the two. That's a good sized looking Serengeti male as well, he probably would have been better off taking the defensive position but exposed himself when trying to climb the tree. Reply

[Rage2277]

(02-22-2023, 11:59 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(02-22-2023, 08:40 PM)Rage2277 Wrote: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Co5WxiwKH...mMyMTA2M2Y= nice tussle between a lioness and male leopard he barely escaped, got a spinal wound too

Definitely in bad shape, again showing the size discrepancy between the two. That's a good sized looking Serengeti male as well, he probably would have been better off taking the defensive position but exposed himself when trying to climb the tree.

Yea he was struggling to climb the tree and that was a brief scuffle Reply

[Luipaard]

(02-22-2023, 11:58 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(02-22-2023, 03:49 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(02-21-2023, 10:53 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(02-21-2023, 10:26 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(02-21-2023, 08:18 PM)Pckts Wrote: It’s always funny to hear people claim Leopards to be Tigress sized. Here’s a perfect example of the differences between a tigress and male leopard. With regards to the encounter, the leopard is strictly defensive and nothing more.

Just because extremely large male leopards can be tigress/lioness-sized doesn't mean every male leopard is. I don't know why you're basing this off a random interaction in Panna National Park. I doubt that an Indian leopard would grow to such an extent when data shows they struggle hard to reach 80kg plus there's no reason to approach such sizes when competing with larger predators. I shouldn't tell you this because you know this very well.

Dr. Mohammad Farhadinia was one of the authors of a newsletter where measurements were given of one of the largest Persian leopard skulls. They concluded the individual was as large as an adult female tiger that once roamed in Golestan National Park which means they were talking about a Caspian tigress (weight range 85-135kg). Now I know your logic by now, you'll assume they were saying the leopard basically weighed 85kg so it was as big as a small Caspian tiger but I doubt that since Caspian tigresses' minimum skull length was 268 mm compared to the 281 mm long Persian leopard skull in this case. 

Measurements of 16 Bengal tiger skulls:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Minimum skull length: 280 mm
Minimum skull width: 177 mm

For leopards (overall):
Maximum skull length: 282 mm
Maximum skull width: 191 mm

This is excluding the biggest leopard skull ever with a condylobasal length of 264 mm (compared to the minimum condylobasal length of 255 mm in this tiger sample). I'm not into tiger skull data so it's possible there are even smaller Bengal tiger skulls.

By the way, nobody here said anything about 'tigress-sized' leopards except for you. Pantherine AKA Balam too was recently spreading nonsense of people saying leopards (as in general) are tigress-sized when in reality it's about the biggest male leopards out there. What a coincidence right?

But yes there are male leopards who have the right to be called tigress/lioness-sized and data supports this. Perhaps you should tell Dr. Mohammad Farhadinia how funny it is what he said about that large Persian leopard skull?

When did skulls determine the size of the cat?
The largest skulls measured don't correlate to the largest cat measured and regardless  an "extremely large leopard" is 90kg, that would be an extremely small Tigress/Lioness. And still that Tigress/Lioness would be much larger in frame just very skinny in mass. 
Make it simple, show me a single Leopards body dimensions that compare to an average Lioness/Tigress. 
Lets see the "Data support this."

Quote:When did skulls determine the size of the cat?
The largest skulls measured don't correlate to the largest cat measured

The bigger the skull the larger the cat. Sure one individual can have a bigger skull than another one while weighing less but in this case we're dealing with male leopards walking around with tigress/lioness-size skulls. Leopards do not have proportionally larger skulls than tigers so there's no way those male leopards are of average size.

Quote:and regardless  an "extremely large leopard" is 90kg, that would be an extremely small Tigress/Lioness.

An extremely large male leopard can weigh more than 90kg since that isn't even the maximum recorded weight. You may agree or disagree, but the largest male leopards can reach or surpass 100kg.

Quote:And still that Tigress/Lioness would be much larger in frame just very skinny in mass.

There are lionesses in Central and West Africa who are adult and thus not 'extremely small':

*This image is copyright of its original author

A mother lioness weighing 90kg is definitely within range of the bigger male leopards. I'm not counting in the 80kg one since she was recovering but likely weighed around 90-100kg. Also that recovering lioness is as tall as the largest male leopards, being around 80cm tall. So I doubt these lionesses would be "much larger in frame". And don't forget we're talking about the largest male leopards, before you go think male leopards are lioness-sized in general...

Also you say some jaguars are "legitimately Lioness/Tigress sized.", but in terms of shoulder height those jaguars are basically leopard-sized, thus tigresses/lionesses will appear bigger but skinnier in mass. Literally the same excuse you use in the leopard case.
You may want to take another look at the abdominal girth of Shaka and Joker by the way. It's not normal to have a greater abdominal girth than the chest girth. This implies the animal isn't empty at all. 

Quote:Make it simple, show me a single Leopards body dimensions that compare to an average Lioness/Tigress.
Lets see the "Data support this."

You know very well there are leopards out there with similar body measurements of lionesses/tigresses, but their body measurements are unknown. The biggest male leopard with known body measurements is a mature male weighing between 69-75kg and had a chest girth of 94 cm.
Here are body measurements of an adolescent tigress weighing circa 100kg:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://wildtigerhealthcentre.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Report_on_Philibhit_tigress_rescue_09Jun20_edited.pdf

Now scale that male leopard to 100kg. You do the math, or ask your buddy Pantherine/Balam.

I forgot to ask you this but since you find it funny when people call leopards tigress-sized, what do you actually think of people calling certain male jaguars "pleistocene-sized" and "weighing around 170kg"? Is that funny too?

Quote:The bigger the skull the larger the cat. Sure one individual can have a bigger skull than another one while weighing less but in this case we're dealing with male leopards walking around with tigress/lioness-size skulls. Leopards do not have proportionally larger skulls than tigers so there's no way those male leopards are of average size.

No, you're dealing with Leopards walking around with small Tigress/Lioness Skulls and once again they don't correlate to the largest weights or dimensions. 
And Leopards don't have proportionally larger skulls, hence a Sumatran Tiger being Jaguar sized but having even larger skulls than them. 

Quote:An extremely large male leopard can weigh more than 90kg since that isn't even the maximum recorded weight. You may agree or disagree, but the largest male leopards can reach or surpass 100kg.

100s of Leopards weighed, less than a handful that have reached 90kg. So once again, that's an extremely large Leopard and that would be considered an extremely small Tigress/Lioness.

Quote:There are lionesses in Central and West Africa who are adult and thus not 'extremely small':

So we should now use the smallest population of Lions to compare?
How about using any real population of Lions that haven't been decimated by poaching and is down to 20 adults or so. Once again trying to twist the facts.

Quote:Also you say some jaguars are "legitimately Lioness/Tigress sized.", but in terms of shoulder height those jaguars are basically leopard-sized, thus tigresses/lionesses will appear bigger but skinnier in mass. Literally the same excuse you use in the leopard case.

You may want to take another look at the abdominal girth of Shaka and Joker by the way. It's not normal to have a greater abdominal girth than the chest girth. This implies the animal isn't empty at all. 

Jokers shoulder height-80cm
Of the 5 Tigress in Cooch Behars with shoulder heights, 4 are sub 900mm and the average difference is 3'' 
Jokers Body length is longer than 10/17 and longer than their average overall
His chest girth is larger than all of them
His weight is more than most 

Hence him being legitimately Lioness/Tigress sized. 

And what are you talking about, it's absolutely normal to have greater abdominal than chest girth, especially if their is food content. Not to mention, Jokers abdominal girth is less than his chest girth. 

Quote:You know very well there are leopards out there with similar body measurements of lionesses/tigresses, but their body measurements are unknown. The biggest male leopard with known body measurements is a mature male weighing between 69-75kg and had a chest girth of 94 cm.

Here are body measurements of an adolescent tigress weighing circa 100kg:

I know very well there absolutely isn't a Leopard that has "similar body dimensions" to a Lioness/Tigress. 
And we have a persian leopard that is most likely either the 86 or 88kg one mentioned that not only is based off a taxidermied individual but still cant even outsize a female Pantanal Jaguar yet somehow you want to try and compare it a Lioness/Tigress.

And I'm confused, how does comparing any Leopard to an adolescent Tigress that outweighs any of them, has a larger chest girth than any of them and is much taller than any of them backs your claim?

Quote:I forgot to ask you this but since you find it funny when people call leopards tigress-sized, what do you actually think of people calling certain male jaguars "pleistocene-sized" and "weighing around 170kg"? Is that funny too?

Well considering there almost 0 verifiable information on "pleistocene-sized" Jaguars, yes I think it's incorrect. Also any claim of them being 170kg isn't based off of fact.

Quote:No, you're dealing with Leopards walking around with small Tigress/Lioness Skulls and once again they don't correlate to the largest weights or dimensions.
And Leopards don't have proportionally larger skulls, hence a Sumatran Tiger being Jaguar sized but having even larger skulls than them.

I know leopards do not have proportionally larger skulls than tigers, that's literally what I said:

Quote:Leopards do not have proportionally larger skulls than tigers so there's no way those male leopards are of average size.

Again, these leopards are so huge there's no chance they're average-sized while walking with tigress/lioness-sized skulls.

Quote:100s of Leopards weighed, less than a handful that have reached 90kg. So once again, that's an extremely large Leopard and that would be considered an extremely small Tigress/Lioness.

Nobody is saying a 90kg male leopard isn't extremely large. However, you said an extremely large male leopard is 90kg when in reality they can weigh more than 90kg. Some believe they can't surpass 100kg while others believe they can.

Quote:and that would be considered an extremely small Tigress/Lioness.
So we should now use the smallest population of Lions to compare? How about using any real population of Lions that haven't been decimated by poaching and is down to 20 adults or so. Once again trying to twist the facts.

You said a 90kg lioness is extremely small, I provided data that shows that adult lionesses can weigh that much while being healthy. Why would you call those populations not real? You like to bring up those snared leopards when talking about Central Africa leopards who face poachers or bushmeat hunters as well? I never heard you complain about them not being a 'real population'? You used those weights to try and decrease those leopards' size actually. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Quote:Jokers shoulder height-80cm
Of the 5 Tigress in Cooch Behars with shoulder heights, 4 are sub 900mm and the average difference is 3''
Jokers Body length is longer than 10/17 and longer than their average overall
His chest girth is larger than all of them
His weight is more than most

Nothing of that information will disprove the fact that lionesses/tigresses will be "much larger in frame just very skinny in mass." compared to said jaguars due to shoulder height. Same thing large male leopards will look smaller when the size difference is actually small.

A big male leopard and a lion at the same location in Central African Republic:

*This image is copyright of its original author

The difference in size isn't huge especially considering the lion is closer to the camera.

Quote:And what are you talking about, it's absolutely normal to have greater abdominal than chest girth, especially if their is food content. Not to mention, Jokers abdominal girth is less than his chest girth.

I said it's not normal unless there's food content hence why I said the animals weren't empty. Even Joker's abdominal girth is slightly less than his chest girth meaning he weighs less than in reality. Both cats clearly were well fed as all Pantanal jaguars are.

Quote:I know very well there absolutely isn't a Leopard that has "similar body dimensions" to a Lioness/Tigress.m:

You know very well the largest male leopards have similar body dimensions, especially in neck and chest girth. In shoulder height I agree they don't but so do jaguars.

Quote:And we have a persian leopard that is most likely either the 86 or 88kg one mentioned that not only is based off a taxidermied individual but still cant even outsize a female Pantanal Jaguar yet somehow you want to try and compare it a Lioness/Tigress

So first you and Pantherine/Balam refused to use the taxidermy leopard's body measurements and now all of a sudden you assume it's either a 86kg male from a study or a 88kg male that got sent to you? Again, hypocrisy at its finest. Otherwise, prove one of those males are the taxidermy specimen we're talking about.

Quote:And I'm confused, how does comparing any Leopard to an adolescent Tigress that outweighs any of them, has a larger chest girth than any of them and is much taller than any of them backs your claim?

There are no body measurements of a bigger leopard other than a 69-75kg one. I told you to scale him with his 94cm chest girth, of course the tigress will be taller as male leopards only approach 80cm in height, like jaguars.

Quote:Well considering there almost 0 verifiable information on "pleistocene-sized" Jaguars, yes I think it's incorrect. Also any claim of them being 170kg isn't based off of fact.

Well Pantherine/Balam thinks male jaguar Edno weighed around 170kg. What's your estimated weight? Reply

[Pckts]

@Luipaard 

Quote:Again, these leopards are so huge there's no chance they're average-sized while walking with tigress/lioness-sized skulls.

Averaged sized means nothing, they can be the top 1% and they're still completely outsized by an average Lioness/Tigress

Quote:Nobody is saying a 90kg male leopard isn't extremely large. However, you said an extremely large male leopard is 90kg when in reality they can weigh more than 90kg. Some believe they can't surpass 100kg while others believe they can.

You're being ridiculous. There is less than a handful of verified Leopards throughout history that have even reached 90kgs. 

Quote:You said a 90kg lioness is extremely small, I provided data that shows that adult lionesses can weigh that much while being healthy. Why would you call those populations not real? You like to bring up those snared leopards when talking about Central Africa leopards who face poachers or bushmeat hunters as well? I never heard you complain about them not being a 'real population'? You used those weights to try and decrease those leopards' size actually. Hypocrisy at its finest.

No, you provided data on a population so decimated that there's less than 20 adults left. Hence why you won't provide data on any other Lion population in existence. 


Are you trying to compare the Central African Leopard population to the Waza Lion population? 

I'm not sure you know what hypocrite means or you'd stop using it since you literally are being one at ever turn. 

Quote:Nothing of that information will disprove the fact that lionesses/tigresses will be "much larger in frame just very skinny in mass." compared to said jaguars due to shoulder height. Same thing large male leopards will look smaller when the size difference is actually small.

A big male leopard and a lion at the same location in Central African Republic:

Once again, Jokers shoulder height will overlap with most of the Tigress mentioned while his Body Length and Chest girth will outsize most. 

And again you showing completely different angled camera trap shots means nothing. Just like any other time, if they are both close to one another the Lioness will dwarf the Leopard. 

Quote:I said it's not normal unless there's food content hence why I said the animals weren't empty. Even Joker's abdominal girth is slightly less than his chest girth meaning he weighs less than in reality. Both cats clearly were well fed as all Pantanal jaguars are.

 
You don't know what it means other than his stomach girth was less than his chest, that's all. 

Quote:You know very well the largest male leopards have similar body dimensions, especially in neck and chest girth. In shoulder height I agree they don't but so do jaguars.

What are you talking about?


You're basing this off of 3 Waza Lioness?
Are you saying that Leopards match up with any other healthy Lioness population?

Quote:So first you and Pantherine/Balam refused to use the taxidermy leopard's body measurements and now all of a sudden you assume it's either a 86kg male from a study or a 88kg male that got sent to you? Again, hypocrisy at its finest. Otherwise, prove one of those males are the taxidermy specimen we're talking about.

The whole point was that even with it's inflated body dimensions it's still completely dwarfed by Lioness/Tigress. 
Since all weights provided never exceeded 88kg and he's the largest dimensional Persion mentioned in the study thats a safe "guess."
So once again, try and comprehend what "most likely" means compared to an absolute. 

Quote:There are no body measurements of a bigger leopard other than a 69-75kg one. I told you to scale him with his 94cm chest girth, of course the tigress will be taller as male leopards only approach 80cm in height, like jaguars.

Scale him to an adolescent Tigress with no age attached and body measurements that have exceeded any Leopard ever?
You're living in fantasy, that's not how this debate works.

Quote:Well Pantherine/Balam thinks male jaguar Edno weighed around 170kg. What's your estimated weight?

Anywhere between 110-140kg+

I don't make estimates without something verifiable to scale off of. Reply

[Luipaard]

@Pckts 

Quote:Averaged sized means nothing, they can be the top 1% and they're still completely outsized by an average Lioness/Tigress

The largest skulls, say top 10, are as big as a smaller tigress/lioness skull. Again leopards do not have proportionally larger skulls so they'll be similar in mass. It's only visually that the tigress/lioness will be bigger by being taller.

Quote:You're being ridiculous. There is less than a handful of verified Leopards throughout history that have even reached 90kgs.

I'm being ridiculous while it's you with the wrong statement of "extremely large male leopards weighing 90kg". They surpass 90kg and possibly 100kg.

Quote:No, you provided data on a population so decimated that there's less than 20 adults left. Hence why you won't provide data on any other Lion population in existence.

Asiatic lionesses average 110-120kg with adult, healthy ones weighing below 100kg. The largest male leopards overlap with the smaller lionesses in this case. Or are they also a decimated population?

Quote:Are you trying to compare the Central African Leopard population to the Waza Lion population?

You used those leopard weights to claim Central African leopards aren't big when they're from a population who are competing with bushmeat hunters. So they're decimated too and not a 'real population'.

Quote:Once again, Jokers shoulder height will overlap with most of the Tigress mentioned while his Body Length and Chest girth will outsize most.

Joker is as tall as the bigger male leopards so it's not only Joker who will overlap in height with most of the tigresses. Both jaguars and male leopards will look smaller in frame.

Quote:And again you showing completely different angled camera trap shots means nothing. Just like any other time, if they are both close to one another the Lioness will dwarf the Leopard.

Completely different angled camera trap? What are you talking about? I merged the two camera traps, they're literally at the same place plus the lion is actually closer to the camera. It will be bigger because of shoulder height but in no way is it dwarfing the male leopard. The professional hunter who set up the camera trap agreed.

Quote:You don't know what it means other than his stomach girth was less than his chest, that's all.

Alright explain to me why Shaka has a larger abdominal girth than his chest girth? And Joker's chest girth is barely greater than his abdominal girth. Both were well fed that's for sure but obviously you won't admit this.

Quote:What are you talking about?
You're basing this off of 3 Waza Lioness?
Are you saying that Leopards match up with any other healthy Lioness population?

Largest male leopards compared to small lionesses from certain populations? Yes they match up. The 2013 study from Van Neer acknowledges the overlap.

Quote:The whole point was that even with it's inflated body dimensions it's still completely dwarfed by Lioness/Tigress.
Since all weights provided never exceeded 88kg and he's the largest dimensional Persion mentioned in the study thats a safe "guess."
So once again, try and comprehend what "most likely" means compared to an absolute.

Maybe you should accept facts when it's being presented to you instead of making "safe guesses".
That Persian leopard was a taxidermy specimen and is certainly not the 86kg male from Golestan National Park. You previously thought the 'biggest Persian leopard' skull belonged to this male too. You always make wrong assumptions.

Quote:Scale him to a adolescent Tigress with no age attached and body measurements that have exceeded any Leopard ever?
You're living in fantasy, that's not how this debate works.

You asked me to provide body measurements of certain leopards but the data is limited hence why the biggest male with body measurements weighed between 69-75kg. The largest leopards can weigh more than 20kg than this individual. We simply don't have the luxury of having data of the largest leopards like jaguars.

Quote:Anywhere between 110-140kg+

I don't make estimates without something verifiable to scale off of.

That's a safe guess and obviously more realistic. Now tell me what's more believable; an extremely large male leopard being tigress/lioness-sized or a modern male jaguar weighing 170kg? Reply

[AndresVida]

(02-22-2023, 11:00 PM)sanjay Wrote: Very interesting interaction between a Tigress and Male Leopard

The tigress looks like she's collared, does anyone here know by chance her name and if she was weighed Reply

[Lycaon]

I would like this thread to stay on topic use pms to continue this debate. Reply

[Styx38]

(02-23-2023, 07:28 PM)Lycaon Wrote: I would like this thread to stay on topic use pms to continue this debate.

Is Luipaard banned?

If so, is it permanent? Reply

[Lycaon]

Luipaard is banned looks to be permanent for the time being. @Styx38 Reply

[Styx38]

(02-25-2023, 02:26 AM)Lycaon Wrote: Luipaard is banned looks to be permanent for the time being. @Styx38

Do you know what exactly is the reason for the ban? Reply