There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(01-24-2023, 03:41 AM)Luipaard Wrote: The issue is that you doubt the 95kg figure even after seeing the official report. What more can you ask bar body measurements? Who was there during the weighing of the cat? Iman Memarian, hence why he told us he weighed that much initially and why he's mentioned in the study. The only thing you lack are body measurements, but for jaguars you don't seem to require them hence jaguar 'Mango' being accepted immediately to the infamous table.
So did Lopez the outlier jaguar who was added twice to the infamous table at one point?
Iman Memarian has provided his weight (around the time of his euthanasia) alongside two professors. Again this is not enough for you to be reliable but a video or an Instagram message is for jaguars.
First of all, the "fan made" table contains data from scientific sources exclusively. The jaguar table contains weights from all sort of sources. After all an estimated weight is enough for you to be added to said table (i.e. Mango weighing "around" 110kg).
Very verified I must say.
Quote:The issue is that you doubt the 95kg figure even after seeing the official report. What more can you ask bar body measurements? Who was there during the weighing of the cat? Iman Memarian, hence why he told us he weighed that much initially and why he's mentioned in the study. The only thing you lack are body measurements, but for jaguars you don't seem to require them hence jaguar 'Mango' being accepted immediately to the infamous table.
How about clarification when said Leopard actually weighed 95kg or 115kg or 98kg? How about the weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc.
It's not that difficult. You have multiple claims, without corresponding valid information.
Mango is simple posted from what the Biologist involved in his capture and collaring stated. You know, the same biologist on video discussing measurements and capture dates and providing those details in public.
Whether you accept them or not means nothing especially when you post trophy hunter FB posts with no verification for Leopards weighing 80kgs.
Quote:So did Lopez the outlier jaguar who was added twice to the infamous table at one point?
When was this? When they first made the table and was quickly corrected?
Meanwhile the same table you use over and over again for Persian Leopards is 2nd sources and you can't even provide the identities of any Leopard mentioned at a weight of 90kgs. Or you using species specific general weights as individuals?
Quote:Iman Memarian has provided his weight (around the time of his euthanasia) alongside two professors. Again this is not enough for you to be reliable but a video or an Instagram message is for jaguars.
No, just him. And the weight''s'' are all over the board. 3-4 of which he wasn't there for not to mention one of which that's an "estimated" weight without clarification on when which came and from whom.
And again your excuses for the Jaguar weights which come from the capture team with data and video/images of the exact capture compared to you using FB trophy hunter claims or trying to 2nd hand weights without knowing where they came from hold no weight.
You don't seem to realize how poorly these excuses are representing you.
Quote:First of all, the "fan made" table contains data from scientific sources exclusively. The jaguar table contains weights from all sort of sources. After all an estimated weight is enough for you to be added to said table (i.e. Mango weighing "around" 110kg).
You mean 2nd hand sources?
From which you have no clue corresponding captures, weights, measurements, specific details that go along with them compared to all of those data specifics mentioned with the Jaguars.
And again you use this same excuse you used the last 3 paragraphs meanwhile it holds no truth and only highlights your hypocrisy on the matter.
Quote:How about clarification when said Leopard actually weighed 95kg or 115kg or 98kg? How about the weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc.
It's not that difficult. You have multiple claims, without corresponding valid information.
You do realise this is a different situation than the Pantanal jaguars being collared? One was brought in (being weighed among other things) for a life-saving operation whereas the latter are being weighed as a protocol when collaring. You demand all kind of things that are not important for the people involved in this case. Be grateful the wildlife veterinarian kindly answered us and that the official report has been presented to you. The report is signed by him and two professors, it's as valid as it gets.
Quote:Mango is simple posted from what the Biologist involved in his capture and collaring stated. You know, the same biologist on video discussing measurements and capture dates and providing those details in public.
You said he's a new individual to be added to the table, meaning you readily accept the weight without knowing "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc.". It's via an Instagram message which is no different than the voice messages Iman Memarian sent us and surely not more valid than the official report of the Persian leopard. The fact that we lack body measurements or info about the scale (why even?) doesn't change that. Those are just criteria of yours.
Quote:Whether you accept them or not means nothing especially when you post trophy hunter FB posts with no verification for Leopards weighing 80kgs.
When did I post "trophy hunter FB posts"?
Quote:When was this? When they first made the table and was quickly corrected?
Does it matter when it occurred? It happened so "multiple weights were claimed".
Quote:Meanwhile the same table you use over and over again for Persian Leopards is 2nd sources and you can't even provide the identities of any Leopard mentioned at a weight of 90kgs. Or you using species specific general weights as individuals?
We don't know how they obtained the weights, I'm sure they can provide the identity of each and every individual but that wasn't their aim. All they wanted to publish was an overview of Persian leopard weights.
Quote:No, just him. And the weight''s'' are all over the board. 3-4 of which he wasn't there for not to mention one of which that's an "estimated" weight without clarification on when which came and from whom.
How do you conclude he wasn't there? There are photos of him being present = evidence. Excuse after excuse again; you doubt the scale capacity, the scale's presence, Iman Memarian's presence, if the weight is estimated or not, ... The list goes on. Nothing convinces you, not even an official report.
Quote:And again your excuses for the Jaguar weights which come from the capture team with data and video/images of the exact capture compared to you using FB trophy hunter claims or trying to 2nd hand weights without knowing where they came from hold no weight.
You don't seem to realize how poorly these excuses are representing you.
There's the "FB trophy hunter" mention again. When did I post a "FB trophy hunted leopard"?
The person with lots of excuses at his disposal is you. Remember Instagram message > official report according to you.
Quote:You mean 2nd hand sources?
From which you have no clue corresponding captures, weights, measurements, specific details that go along with them compared to all of those data specifics mentioned with the Jaguars.
And again you use this same excuse you used the last 3 paragraphs meanwhile it holds no truth and only highlights your hypocrisy on the matter.
There are detailed measurements for some skulls (e.g. Van Neer's 2013 study) meaning they measured the skulls themselves. In their case they collected skulls from two Belgian museums. There's nothing "2nd hand" about them. Again you demand a lot of info because that's your criteria. Luckily you don't decide the requirements of a first-hand source.
Quote:You do realise this is a different situation than the Pantanal jaguars being collared? One was brought in (being weighed among other things) for a life-saving operation whereas the latter are being weighed as a protocol when collaring. You demand all kind of things that are not important for the people involved in this case. Be grateful the wildlife veterinarian kindly answered us and that the official report has been presented to you. The report is signed by him and two professors, it's as valid as it gets.
You do realize that this cat was captured no differently and claims were made. Yet no clarification or proof of said claims have been presented.
You also interpreting a report means little, we've already seen numerous members here try to do the same on post mortem reports only to get in trouble for making assumptions.
Quote:You said he's a new individual to be added to the table, meaning you readily accept the weight without knowing "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc.". It's via an Instagram message which is no different than the voice messages Iman Memarian sent us and surely not more valid than the official report of the Persian leopard. The fact that we lack body measurements or info about the scale (why even?) doesn't change that. Those are just criteria of yours.
What are you not understanding? The same person who weighed and presented Jokers measurements also presented Mangos. You know, the one who provided actual capture dates and corresponding body measurements and weighing protocols.
Nice try though
Quote:When did I post "trophy hunter FB posts"?
Literally the Tanzanian Leopard hanging from the scale is a FB trophy hunter post. The weight claims mean nothing as they will load the cats with weights or have faulty scales.
Quote:Does it matter when it occurred? It happened so "multiple weights were claimed".
Of course it does if they're actively updating a table or else you're left with errors like what happened with the persian table. The fact that you don't seem to understand this or acknowledge it says a lot.
Quote:How do you conclude he wasn't there? There are photos of him being present = evidence. Excuse after excuse again; you doubt the scale capacity, the scale's presence, Iman Memarian's presence, if the weight is estimated or not, ... The list goes on. Nothing convinces you, not even an official report
Which weighing was he there for? The 115kg? The 98kg? The about 100kg? The 95kg? Or maybe it has to do with the fact that he doesn't have the measurements or capture data and needs to be told what publication they are from?
Once again, the amount of excuses you try and make for the Jaguar table on being invalid while accepting weights without any actual data or proof for persian leopards is astounding.
Quote:There are detailed measurements for some skulls (e.g. Van Neer's 2013 study) meaning they measured the skulls themselves. In their case they collected skulls from two Belgian museums. There's nothing "2nd hand" about them. Again you demand a lot of info because that's your criteria. Luckily you don't decide the requirements of a first-hand source.
I'm not sure you know what 2nd hand means?
Van Neer wasn't present during the capture of these cats. They are by definition 2nd hand *belonged to someone else*
Quote:You do realize that this cat was captured no differently and claims were made. Yet no clarification or proof of said claims have been presented.
You also interpreting a report means little, we've already seen numerous members here try to do the same on post mortem reports only to get in trouble for making assumptions.
You do realise the proof is right there in front of you, backing Iman Memarian's claims (hint: report).
I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding post mortem reports but in this case we're dealing with a live cat although they were about to put it out of its misery.
Quote:What are you not understanding? The same person who weighed and presented Jokers measurements also presented Mangos. You know, the one who provided actual capture dates and corresponding body measurements and weighing protocols.
Nice try though
Why don't you share everything about 'Mango' instead of an "about X-"weight. And give me "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of outlier male Lopez. Those are your own criteria so you should be able to right?
Quote:Literally the Tanzanian Leopard hanging from the scale is a FB trophy hunter post. The weight claims mean nothing as they will load the cats with weights or have faulty scales.
I had a sneaky suspicion you were talking about that male. I actually received it from a professional hunter active in Central African Republic. He got it directly from a client in Tanzania. He's actually going to Masailand after the current season. The only reason I shared it is because of the scale which 'verifies' the weight. I know it's not 100% certain this weight is accurate but doesn't his size and full belly make it somewhat believable?
Quote:Of course it does if they're actively updating a table or else you're left with errors like what happened with the persian table. The fact that you don't seem to understand this or acknowledge it says a lot.
Lopez' being added twice isn't the only error. I have more remarks which I already addressed but I'm still waiting for answers. Feel free to PM me when you have some answers since it's off-topic here.
Quote:Which weighing was he there for? The 115kg? The 98kg? The about 100kg? The 95kg? Or maybe it has to do with the fact that he doesn't have the measurements or capture data and needs to be told what publication they are from?
Once again, the amount of excuses you try and make for the Jaguar table on being invalid while accepting weights without any actual data or proof for persian leopards is astounding.
Well you doubted his presence overall despite him appearing in almost every photo. He's a wildlife veterinarian which makes me assume he was there almost the whole time since he's involved in rescuing the cat. The 2014 study mentioned the exceptional male's weight with Iman Memarian as the source (i.e. personal communication). I contacted him and he said the same thing to me. You and AndresVida did too and again received the same information. Now there's an offical report where the decision or proposal is made to euthanize the cat, meaning nothing life-saving can be done. At this point he weighed 95kg.
You questioning the official report signed by Memarian and two more professors with no reason is what I call astounding.
Quote:I'm not sure you know what 2nd hand means?
Van Neer wasn't present during the capture of these cats. They are by definition 2nd hand *belonged to someone else*
Again, they measured the skulls themselves . They borrowed the skulls from two Belgian museums who did not measure them. The measurements are therefore from a first-hand source.
Quote:You do realise the proof is right there in front of you, backing Iman Memarian's claims (hint: report).
I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding post mortem reports but in this case we're dealing with a live cat although they were about to put it out of its misery.
Lets simplify, you are making assumptions based off a report that presents no real verification of multiple weights claimed.
Quote:Why don't you share everything about 'Mango' instead of an "about X-"weight. And give me "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of outlier male Lopez. Those are your own criteria so you should be able to right?
Why? So you can avoid the proof and go back to some ridiculous argument involving the Tables validity that holds no water.
Quote:I had a sneaky suspicion you were talking about that male. I actually received it from a professional hunter active in Central African Republic. He got it directly from a client in Tanzania. He's actually going to Masailand after the current season. The only reason I shared it is because of the scale which 'verifies' the weight. I know it's not 100% certain this weight is accurate but doesn't his size and full belly make it somewhat believable?
A professional Hunter got it 2nd hand from a trophy client in a trophy hunting reserve?
And you obviously don't know what you're talking about with regards to "masailand"
Is he talking about a Lodge in Arusha or the private hunting company?
"Masai Land" is anywhere Masai live and that would be throughout Tanzania and neighboring countries I'm sure.
And the scale verifies nothing, trophy hunters will hide beef and weights in their catches to exaggerate the weights, you see this in fishing as well. Hence why SCI doesn't record weights because they can be skewed.
Lastly you comparing a private trophy hunters claim to a verified weight from the biologist involved is a joke.
Quote:Lopez' being added twice isn't the only error. I have more remarks which I already addressed but I'm still waiting for answers. Feel free to PM me when you have some answers since it's off-topic here.
Of course it was, don't be ridiculous. Your interpretations mean little since you and her had numerous debates over the table.
The table as it stands is by far the most in depth of its kind, almost all of the weights come from first hand sources. The fact that you try and deny that is on you but it's wrong.
Quote:Well you doubted his presence overall despite him appearing in almost every photo. He's a wildlife veterinarian which makes me assume he was there almost the whole time since he's involved in rescuing the cat. The 2014 study mentioned the exceptional male's weight with Iman Memarian as the source (i.e. personal communication). I contacted him and he said the same thing to me. You and AndresVida did too and again received the same information. Now there's an offical report where the decision or proposal is made to euthanize the cat, meaning nothing life-saving can be done. At this point he weighed 95kg.
You questioning the official report signed by Memarian and two more professors with no reason is what I call astounding.
How many of those photos are of the cat being weighed?
How many of them involve measurements?
Once again, an "official report" that is left to interpretation doesn't make your weight claims valid.
Quote:Lets simplify, you are making assumptions based off a report that presents no real verification of multiple weights claimed.
By now I have explained enough about the report. You deem the report not a true verification but merely an assumption. We are seeing things differently here. You deem an Instagram message from a biologist worthy of a verification, but a signed clinical report by a wildlife veterinarian and professors isn't.
Quote:Why? So you can avoid the proof and go back to some ridiculous argument involving the Tables validity that holds no water.
I already told you why; because these are your criteria. You question literally anything about leopard's weights (e.g. scale presence, scale capacity, ...) but it isn't vice versa for jaguars. So I'd like to see "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of jaguar Lopez. Funnily you once said "Unfortunately I haven't been able to get the measurements on the Monster 148kg Jag measured by Hoogesteijin but if we could get them then that would really be interesting." so it's not that you refuse to share it, it's because you can't.
Quote:A professional Hunter got it 2nd hand from a trophy client in a trophy hunting reserve?
Indeed he received it directly from a client.
Quote:And you obviously don't know what you're talking about with regards to "masailand"
Is he talking about a Lodge in Arusha or the private hunting company?
"Masai Land" is anywhere Masai live and that would be throughout Tanzania and neighboring countries I'm sure.
We're not talking about a lodge or a company at all. I know very well what I'm talking about and so does the professional hunter. We're talking about the region Masailand which stretches across southern Kenya and northern Tanzania:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Quote:And the scale verifies nothing, trophy hunters will hide beef and weights in their catches to exaggerate the weights, you see this in fishing as well. Hence why SCI doesn't record weights because they can be skewed.
I know cheating happens in fishing sport like recently a champion fisher got caught adding weight to his fish in the US. But funny that you mention SCI since some time ago you said that "Weights aren't required for score but the few we have from the top 10 list have been sub 90kg." So that's great to hear that the weights are possibly skewed.
Quote:Lastly you comparing a private trophy hunters claim to a verified weight from the biologist involved is a joke.
Wow hold on, it was you who brought up "FB trophy hunter posts/claims", not me. I never compared the two because as I've said before, comparing hunter records to scientific ones is comparing apples to oranges. I suggest you take that back.
Quote:Of course it was, don't be ridiculous. Your interpretations mean little since you and her had numerous debates over the table.
The table as it stands is by far the most in depth of its kind, almost all of the weights come from first hand sources. The fact that you try and deny that is on you but it's wrong.
I have some valid remarks on the most recent table so again you can PM me with the explanation or you can forward my remarks to the creator.
Quote:How many of those photos are of the cat being weighed?
How many of them involve measurements?
Once again, an "official report" that is left to interpretation doesn't make your weight claims valid.
You said he was never there just so you can question the weights he provided. You received voice messages from him explaining everything (you should be thankful) and now I present you the clinical report signed by him and two more professors. Still the weight isn't valid and everything is just an assumption. Please help me know the difference between a biologist, a wildlife veterinarian and two professors of surgery and radiology department. Because the words coming from the biologist mean more to you. Why?
Nothing above is worth responding too at this stage.
Except with regards to "masailand"
You obviously don't know what you're talking about.
The area you just highlighted is the Masai's legal land. It's where the government allocated their property and agreed to let them still live there amongst the wild, similar to what you see in the states for Native Americans except that was originally their homeland. It's not a park or reserve.
Quote:Nothing above is worth responding too at this stage.
That's the easy way out. You got cornered so as usual you abandon the discussion.
Quote:The area you just highlighted is the Masai's legal land. It's where the government allocated their property and agreed to let them still live there amongst the wild, similar to what you see in the states for Native Americans except that was originally their homeland. It's not a park or reserve.
So you admit it's a region/area now? I thought it was "a Lodge in Arusha" or "a private hunting company"? I know very well who inhabits Masailand and am aware of it not being a park or reserve. This doesn't change the fact that this specific leopard was hunted in this region, in the Tanzanian part.
Try reading more carefully next time
*This image is copyright of its original author
Copy-pasting your post isn't going to change the fact that you were wrong. It was neither a lodge or a hunting company. It was the region itself the hunter was talking about just like Rowland Wards Records mentions two leopards being from Masailand. You posted it yourself (post #349).
(01-24-2023, 11:26 PM)Pckts Wrote: How about clarification when said Leopard actually weighed 95kg or 115kg or 98kg? How about the weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc.
It's not that difficult. You have multiple claims, without corresponding valid information.
Mango is simple posted from what the Biologist involved in his capture and collaring stated. You know, the same biologist on video discussing measurements and capture dates and providing those details in public.
Whether you accept them or not means nothing especially when you post trophy hunter FB posts with no verification for Leopards weighing 80kgs.
When was this? When they first made the table and was quickly corrected?
Meanwhile the same table you use over and over again for Persian Leopards is 2nd sources and you can't even provide the identities of any Leopard mentioned at a weight of 90kgs. Or you using species specific general weights as individuals?
No, just him. And the weight''s'' are all over the board. 3-4 of which he wasn't there for not to mention one of which that's an "estimated" weight without clarification on when which came and from whom.
And again your excuses for the Jaguar weights which come from the capture team with data and video/images of the exact capture compared to you using FB trophy hunter claims or trying to 2nd hand weights without knowing where they came from hold no weight.
You don't seem to realize how poorly these excuses are representing you.
You mean 2nd hand sources?
From which you have no clue corresponding captures, weights, measurements, specific details that go along with them compared to all of those data specifics mentioned with the Jaguars.
And again you use this same excuse you used the last 3 paragraphs meanwhile it holds no truth and only highlights your hypocrisy on the matter.
Quote:How about clarification when said Leopard actually weighed 95kg or 115kg or 98kg? How about the weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc.
It's not that difficult. You have multiple claims, without corresponding valid information.
You do realise this is a different situation than the Pantanal jaguars being collared? One was brought in (being weighed among other things) for a life-saving operation whereas the latter are being weighed as a protocol when collaring. You demand all kind of things that are not important for the people involved in this case. Be grateful the wildlife veterinarian kindly answered us and that the official report has been presented to you. The report is signed by him and two professors, it's as valid as it gets.
Quote:Mango is simple posted from what the Biologist involved in his capture and collaring stated. You know, the same biologist on video discussing measurements and capture dates and providing those details in public.
You said he's a new individual to be added to the table, meaning you readily accept the weight without knowing "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc.". It's via an Instagram message which is no different than the voice messages Iman Memarian sent us and surely not more valid than the official report of the Persian leopard. The fact that we lack body measurements or info about the scale (why even?) doesn't change that. Those are just criteria of yours.
Quote:Whether you accept them or not means nothing especially when you post trophy hunter FB posts with no verification for Leopards weighing 80kgs.
When did I post "trophy hunter FB posts"?
Quote:When was this? When they first made the table and was quickly corrected?
Does it matter when it occurred? It happened so "multiple weights were claimed".
Quote:Meanwhile the same table you use over and over again for Persian Leopards is 2nd sources and you can't even provide the identities of any Leopard mentioned at a weight of 90kgs. Or you using species specific general weights as individuals?
We don't know how they obtained the weights, I'm sure they can provide the identity of each and every individual but that wasn't their aim. All they wanted to publish was an overview of Persian leopard weights.
Quote:No, just him. And the weight''s'' are all over the board. 3-4 of which he wasn't there for not to mention one of which that's an "estimated" weight without clarification on when which came and from whom.
How do you conclude he wasn't there? There are photos of him being present = evidence. Excuse after excuse again; you doubt the scale capacity, the scale's presence, Iman Memarian's presence, if the weight is estimated or not, ... The list goes on. Nothing convinces you, not even an official report.
Quote:And again your excuses for the Jaguar weights which come from the capture team with data and video/images of the exact capture compared to you using FB trophy hunter claims or trying to 2nd hand weights without knowing where they came from hold no weight.
You don't seem to realize how poorly these excuses are representing you.
There's the "FB trophy hunter" mention again. When did I post a "FB trophy hunted leopard"?
The person with lots of excuses at his disposal is you. Remember Instagram message > official report according to you.
Quote:You mean 2nd hand sources?
From which you have no clue corresponding captures, weights, measurements, specific details that go along with them compared to all of those data specifics mentioned with the Jaguars.
And again you use this same excuse you used the last 3 paragraphs meanwhile it holds no truth and only highlights your hypocrisy on the matter.
There are detailed measurements for some skulls (e.g. Van Neer's 2013 study) meaning they measured the skulls themselves. In their case they collected skulls from two Belgian museums. There's nothing "2nd hand" about them. Again you demand a lot of info because that's your criteria. Luckily you don't decide the requirements of a first-hand source.
Quote:You do realise this is a different situation than the Pantanal jaguars being collared? One was brought in (being weighed among other things) for a life-saving operation whereas the latter are being weighed as a protocol when collaring. You demand all kind of things that are not important for the people involved in this case. Be grateful the wildlife veterinarian kindly answered us and that the official report has been presented to you. The report is signed by him and two professors, it's as valid as it gets.
You do realize that this cat was captured no differently and claims were made. Yet no clarification or proof of said claims have been presented.
You also interpreting a report means little, we've already seen numerous members here try to do the same on post mortem reports only to get in trouble for making assumptions.
Quote:You said he's a new individual to be added to the table, meaning you readily accept the weight without knowing "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc.". It's via an Instagram message which is no different than the voice messages Iman Memarian sent us and surely not more valid than the official report of the Persian leopard. The fact that we lack body measurements or info about the scale (why even?) doesn't change that. Those are just criteria of yours.
What are you not understanding? The same person who weighed and presented Jokers measurements also presented Mangos. You know, the one who provided actual capture dates and corresponding body measurements and weighing protocols.
Nice try though
Quote:When did I post "trophy hunter FB posts"?
Literally the Tanzanian Leopard hanging from the scale is a FB trophy hunter post. The weight claims mean nothing as they will load the cats with weights or have faulty scales.
Quote:Does it matter when it occurred? It happened so "multiple weights were claimed".
Of course it does if they're actively updating a table or else you're left with errors like what happened with the persian table. The fact that you don't seem to understand this or acknowledge it says a lot.
Quote:How do you conclude he wasn't there? There are photos of him being present = evidence. Excuse after excuse again; you doubt the scale capacity, the scale's presence, Iman Memarian's presence, if the weight is estimated or not, ... The list goes on. Nothing convinces you, not even an official report
Which weighing was he there for? The 115kg? The 98kg? The about 100kg? The 95kg? Or maybe it has to do with the fact that he doesn't have the measurements or capture data and needs to be told what publication they are from?
Once again, the amount of excuses you try and make for the Jaguar table on being invalid while accepting weights without any actual data or proof for persian leopards is astounding.
Quote:There are detailed measurements for some skulls (e.g. Van Neer's 2013 study) meaning they measured the skulls themselves. In their case they collected skulls from two Belgian museums. There's nothing "2nd hand" about them. Again you demand a lot of info because that's your criteria. Luckily you don't decide the requirements of a first-hand source.
I'm not sure you know what 2nd hand means?
Van Neer wasn't present during the capture of these cats. They are by definition 2nd hand *belonged to someone else*
Quote:You do realize that this cat was captured no differently and claims were made. Yet no clarification or proof of said claims have been presented.
You also interpreting a report means little, we've already seen numerous members here try to do the same on post mortem reports only to get in trouble for making assumptions.
You do realise the proof is right there in front of you, backing Iman Memarian's claims (hint: report).
I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding post mortem reports but in this case we're dealing with a live cat although they were about to put it out of its misery.
Quote:What are you not understanding? The same person who weighed and presented Jokers measurements also presented Mangos. You know, the one who provided actual capture dates and corresponding body measurements and weighing protocols.
Nice try though
Why don't you share everything about 'Mango' instead of an "about X-"weight. And give me "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of outlier male Lopez. Those are your own criteria so you should be able to right?
Quote:Literally the Tanzanian Leopard hanging from the scale is a FB trophy hunter post. The weight claims mean nothing as they will load the cats with weights or have faulty scales.
I had a sneaky suspicion you were talking about that male. I actually received it from a professional hunter active in Central African Republic. He got it directly from a client in Tanzania. He's actually going to Masailand after the current season. The only reason I shared it is because of the scale which 'verifies' the weight. I know it's not 100% certain this weight is accurate but doesn't his size and full belly make it somewhat believable?
Quote:Of course it does if they're actively updating a table or else you're left with errors like what happened with the persian table. The fact that you don't seem to understand this or acknowledge it says a lot.
Lopez' being added twice isn't the only error. I have more remarks which I already addressed but I'm still waiting for answers. Feel free to PM me when you have some answers since it's off-topic here.
Quote:Which weighing was he there for? The 115kg? The 98kg? The about 100kg? The 95kg? Or maybe it has to do with the fact that he doesn't have the measurements or capture data and needs to be told what publication they are from?
Once again, the amount of excuses you try and make for the Jaguar table on being invalid while accepting weights without any actual data or proof for persian leopards is astounding.
Well you doubted his presence overall despite him appearing in almost every photo. He's a wildlife veterinarian which makes me assume he was there almost the whole time since he's involved in rescuing the cat. The 2014 study mentioned the exceptional male's weight with Iman Memarian as the source (i.e. personal communication). I contacted him and he said the same thing to me. You and AndresVida did too and again received the same information. Now there's an offical report where the decision or proposal is made to euthanize the cat, meaning nothing life-saving can be done. At this point he weighed 95kg.
You questioning the official report signed by Memarian and two more professors with no reason is what I call astounding.
Quote:I'm not sure you know what 2nd hand means?
Van Neer wasn't present during the capture of these cats. They are by definition 2nd hand *belonged to someone else*
Again, they measured the skulls themselves . They borrowed the skulls from two Belgian museums who did not measure them. The measurements are therefore from a first-hand source.
Quote:You do realise the proof is right there in front of you, backing Iman Memarian's claims (hint: report).
I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding post mortem reports but in this case we're dealing with a live cat although they were about to put it out of its misery.
Lets simplify, you are making assumptions based off a report that presents no real verification of multiple weights claimed.
Quote:Why don't you share everything about 'Mango' instead of an "about X-"weight. And give me "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of outlier male Lopez. Those are your own criteria so you should be able to right?
Why? So you can avoid the proof and go back to some ridiculous argument involving the Tables validity that holds no water.
Quote:I had a sneaky suspicion you were talking about that male. I actually received it from a professional hunter active in Central African Republic. He got it directly from a client in Tanzania. He's actually going to Masailand after the current season. The only reason I shared it is because of the scale which 'verifies' the weight. I know it's not 100% certain this weight is accurate but doesn't his size and full belly make it somewhat believable?
A professional Hunter got it 2nd hand from a trophy client in a trophy hunting reserve?
And you obviously don't know what you're talking about with regards to "masailand"
Is he talking about a Lodge in Arusha or the private hunting company?
"Masai Land" is anywhere Masai live and that would be throughout Tanzania and neighboring countries I'm sure.
And the scale verifies nothing, trophy hunters will hide beef and weights in their catches to exaggerate the weights, you see this in fishing as well. Hence why SCI doesn't record weights because they can be skewed.
Lastly you comparing a private trophy hunters claim to a verified weight from the biologist involved is a joke.
Quote:Lopez' being added twice isn't the only error. I have more remarks which I already addressed but I'm still waiting for answers. Feel free to PM me when you have some answers since it's off-topic here.
Of course it was, don't be ridiculous. Your interpretations mean little since you and her had numerous debates over the table.
The table as it stands is by far the most in depth of its kind, almost all of the weights come from first hand sources. The fact that you try and deny that is on you but it's wrong.
Quote:Well you doubted his presence overall despite him appearing in almost every photo. He's a wildlife veterinarian which makes me assume he was there almost the whole time since he's involved in rescuing the cat. The 2014 study mentioned the exceptional male's weight with Iman Memarian as the source (i.e. personal communication). I contacted him and he said the same thing to me. You and AndresVida did too and again received the same information. Now there's an offical report where the decision or proposal is made to euthanize the cat, meaning nothing life-saving can be done. At this point he weighed 95kg.
You questioning the official report signed by Memarian and two more professors with no reason is what I call astounding.
How many of those photos are of the cat being weighed?
How many of them involve measurements?
Once again, an "official report" that is left to interpretation doesn't make your weight claims valid.
Quote:Lets simplify, you are making assumptions based off a report that presents no real verification of multiple weights claimed.
By now I have explained enough about the report. You deem the report not a true verification but merely an assumption. We are seeing things differently here. You deem an Instagram message from a biologist worthy of a verification, but a signed clinical report by a wildlife veterinarian and professors isn't.
Quote:Why? So you can avoid the proof and go back to some ridiculous argument involving the Tables validity that holds no water.
I already told you why; because these are your criteria. You question literally anything about leopard's weights (e.g. scale presence, scale capacity, ...) but it isn't vice versa for jaguars. So I'd like to see "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of jaguar Lopez. Funnily you once said "Unfortunately I haven't been able to get the measurements on the Monster 148kg Jag measured by Hoogesteijin but if we could get them then that would really be interesting." so it's not that you refuse to share it, it's because you can't.
Quote:A professional Hunter got it 2nd hand from a trophy client in a trophy hunting reserve?
Indeed he received it directly from a client.
Quote:And you obviously don't know what you're talking about with regards to "masailand"
Is he talking about a Lodge in Arusha or the private hunting company?
"Masai Land" is anywhere Masai live and that would be throughout Tanzania and neighboring countries I'm sure.
We're not talking about a lodge or a company at all. I know very well what I'm talking about and so does the professional hunter. We're talking about the region Masailand which stretches across southern Kenya and northern Tanzania:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Quote:And the scale verifies nothing, trophy hunters will hide beef and weights in their catches to exaggerate the weights, you see this in fishing as well. Hence why SCI doesn't record weights because they can be skewed.
I know cheating happens in fishing sport like recently a champion fisher got caught adding weight to his fish in the US. But funny that you mention SCI since some time ago you said that "Weights aren't required for score but the few we have from the top 10 list have been sub 90kg." So that's great to hear that the weights are possibly skewed.
Quote:Lastly you comparing a private trophy hunters claim to a verified weight from the biologist involved is a joke.
Wow hold on, it was you who brought up "FB trophy hunter posts/claims", not me. I never compared the two because as I've said before, comparing hunter records to scientific ones is comparing apples to oranges. I suggest you take that back.
Quote:Of course it was, don't be ridiculous. Your interpretations mean little since you and her had numerous debates over the table.
The table as it stands is by far the most in depth of its kind, almost all of the weights come from first hand sources. The fact that you try and deny that is on you but it's wrong.
I have some valid remarks on the most recent table so again you can PM me with the explanation or you can forward my remarks to the creator.
Quote:How many of those photos are of the cat being weighed?
How many of them involve measurements?
Once again, an "official report" that is left to interpretation doesn't make your weight claims valid.
You said he was never there just so you can question the weights he provided. You received voice messages from him explaining everything (you should be thankful) and now I present you the clinical report signed by him and two more professors. Still the weight isn't valid and everything is just an assumption. Please help me know the difference between a biologist, a wildlife veterinarian and two professors of surgery and radiology department. Because the words coming from the biologist mean more to you. Why?
Nothing above is worth responding too at this stage.
Except with regards to "masailand"
You obviously don't know what you're talking about.
The area you just highlighted is the Masai's legal land. It's where the government allocated their property and agreed to let them still live there amongst the wild, similar to what you see in the states for Native Americans except that was originally their homeland. It's not a park or reserve.
Quote:Nothing above is worth responding too at this stage.
That's the easy way out. You got cornered so as usual you abandon the discussion.
Quote:The area you just highlighted is the Masai's legal land. It's where the government allocated their property and agreed to let them still live there amongst the wild, similar to what you see in the states for Native Americans except that was originally their homeland. It's not a park or reserve.
So you admit it's a region/area now? I thought it was "a Lodge in Arusha" or "a private hunting company"? I know very well who inhabits Masailand and am aware of it not being a park or reserve. This doesn't change the fact that this specific leopard was hunted in this region, in the Tanzanian part.
Try reading more carefully next time
*This image is copyright of its original author
Copy-pasting your post isn't going to change the fact that you were wrong. It was neither a lodge or a hunting company. It was the region itself the hunter was talking about just like Rowland Wards Records mentions two leopards being from Masailand. You posted it yourself (post #349)
(01-25-2023, 12:17 AM)Luipaard Wrote: You do realise this is a different situation than the Pantanal jaguars being collared? One was brought in (being weighed among other things) for a life-saving operation whereas the latter are being weighed as a protocol when collaring. You demand all kind of things that are not important for the people involved in this case. Be grateful the wildlife veterinarian kindly answered us and that the official report has been presented to you. The report is signed by him and two professors, it's as valid as it gets.
You said he's a new individual to be added to the table, meaning you readily accept the weight without knowing "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc.". It's via an Instagram message which is no different than the voice messages Iman Memarian sent us and surely not more valid than the official report of the Persian leopard. The fact that we lack body measurements or info about the scale (why even?) doesn't change that. Those are just criteria of yours.
When did I post "trophy hunter FB posts"?
Does it matter when it occurred? It happened so "multiple weights were claimed".
We don't know how they obtained the weights, I'm sure they can provide the identity of each and every individual but that wasn't their aim. All they wanted to publish was an overview of Persian leopard weights.
How do you conclude he wasn't there? There are photos of him being present = evidence. Excuse after excuse again; you doubt the scale capacity, the scale's presence, Iman Memarian's presence, if the weight is estimated or not, ... The list goes on. Nothing convinces you, not even an official report.
There's the "FB trophy hunter" mention again. When did I post a "FB trophy hunted leopard"?
The person with lots of excuses at his disposal is you. Remember Instagram message > official report according to you.
There are detailed measurements for some skulls (e.g. Van Neer's 2013 study) meaning they measured the skulls themselves. In their case they collected skulls from two Belgian museums. There's nothing "2nd hand" about them. Again you demand a lot of info because that's your criteria. Luckily you don't decide the requirements of a first-hand source.
Quote:You do realise this is a different situation than the Pantanal jaguars being collared? One was brought in (being weighed among other things) for a life-saving operation whereas the latter are being weighed as a protocol when collaring. You demand all kind of things that are not important for the people involved in this case. Be grateful the wildlife veterinarian kindly answered us and that the official report has been presented to you. The report is signed by him and two professors, it's as valid as it gets.
You do realize that this cat was captured no differently and claims were made. Yet no clarification or proof of said claims have been presented.
You also interpreting a report means little, we've already seen numerous members here try to do the same on post mortem reports only to get in trouble for making assumptions.
Quote:You said he's a new individual to be added to the table, meaning you readily accept the weight without knowing "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc.". It's via an Instagram message which is no different than the voice messages Iman Memarian sent us and surely not more valid than the official report of the Persian leopard. The fact that we lack body measurements or info about the scale (why even?) doesn't change that. Those are just criteria of yours.
What are you not understanding? The same person who weighed and presented Jokers measurements also presented Mangos. You know, the one who provided actual capture dates and corresponding body measurements and weighing protocols.
Nice try though
Quote:When did I post "trophy hunter FB posts"?
Literally the Tanzanian Leopard hanging from the scale is a FB trophy hunter post. The weight claims mean nothing as they will load the cats with weights or have faulty scales.
Quote:Does it matter when it occurred? It happened so "multiple weights were claimed".
Of course it does if they're actively updating a table or else you're left with errors like what happened with the persian table. The fact that you don't seem to understand this or acknowledge it says a lot.
Quote:How do you conclude he wasn't there? There are photos of him being present = evidence. Excuse after excuse again; you doubt the scale capacity, the scale's presence, Iman Memarian's presence, if the weight is estimated or not, ... The list goes on. Nothing convinces you, not even an official report
Which weighing was he there for? The 115kg? The 98kg? The about 100kg? The 95kg? Or maybe it has to do with the fact that he doesn't have the measurements or capture data and needs to be told what publication they are from?
Once again, the amount of excuses you try and make for the Jaguar table on being invalid while accepting weights without any actual data or proof for persian leopards is astounding.
Quote:There are detailed measurements for some skulls (e.g. Van Neer's 2013 study) meaning they measured the skulls themselves. In their case they collected skulls from two Belgian museums. There's nothing "2nd hand" about them. Again you demand a lot of info because that's your criteria. Luckily you don't decide the requirements of a first-hand source.
I'm not sure you know what 2nd hand means?
Van Neer wasn't present during the capture of these cats. They are by definition 2nd hand *belonged to someone else*
Quote:You do realize that this cat was captured no differently and claims were made. Yet no clarification or proof of said claims have been presented.
You also interpreting a report means little, we've already seen numerous members here try to do the same on post mortem reports only to get in trouble for making assumptions.
You do realise the proof is right there in front of you, backing Iman Memarian's claims (hint: report).
I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding post mortem reports but in this case we're dealing with a live cat although they were about to put it out of its misery.
Quote:What are you not understanding? The same person who weighed and presented Jokers measurements also presented Mangos. You know, the one who provided actual capture dates and corresponding body measurements and weighing protocols.
Nice try though
Why don't you share everything about 'Mango' instead of an "about X-"weight. And give me "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of outlier male Lopez. Those are your own criteria so you should be able to right?
Quote:Literally the Tanzanian Leopard hanging from the scale is a FB trophy hunter post. The weight claims mean nothing as they will load the cats with weights or have faulty scales.
I had a sneaky suspicion you were talking about that male. I actually received it from a professional hunter active in Central African Republic. He got it directly from a client in Tanzania. He's actually going to Masailand after the current season. The only reason I shared it is because of the scale which 'verifies' the weight. I know it's not 100% certain this weight is accurate but doesn't his size and full belly make it somewhat believable?
Quote:Of course it does if they're actively updating a table or else you're left with errors like what happened with the persian table. The fact that you don't seem to understand this or acknowledge it says a lot.
Lopez' being added twice isn't the only error. I have more remarks which I already addressed but I'm still waiting for answers. Feel free to PM me when you have some answers since it's off-topic here.
Quote:Which weighing was he there for? The 115kg? The 98kg? The about 100kg? The 95kg? Or maybe it has to do with the fact that he doesn't have the measurements or capture data and needs to be told what publication they are from?
Once again, the amount of excuses you try and make for the Jaguar table on being invalid while accepting weights without any actual data or proof for persian leopards is astounding.
Well you doubted his presence overall despite him appearing in almost every photo. He's a wildlife veterinarian which makes me assume he was there almost the whole time since he's involved in rescuing the cat. The 2014 study mentioned the exceptional male's weight with Iman Memarian as the source (i.e. personal communication). I contacted him and he said the same thing to me. You and AndresVida did too and again received the same information. Now there's an offical report where the decision or proposal is made to euthanize the cat, meaning nothing life-saving can be done. At this point he weighed 95kg.
You questioning the official report signed by Memarian and two more professors with no reason is what I call astounding.
Quote:I'm not sure you know what 2nd hand means?
Van Neer wasn't present during the capture of these cats. They are by definition 2nd hand *belonged to someone else*
Again, they measured the skulls themselves . They borrowed the skulls from two Belgian museums who did not measure them. The measurements are therefore from a first-hand source.
Quote:You do realise the proof is right there in front of you, backing Iman Memarian's claims (hint: report).
I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding post mortem reports but in this case we're dealing with a live cat although they were about to put it out of its misery.
Lets simplify, you are making assumptions based off a report that presents no real verification of multiple weights claimed.
Quote:Why don't you share everything about 'Mango' instead of an "about X-"weight. And give me "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of outlier male Lopez. Those are your own criteria so you should be able to right?
Why? So you can avoid the proof and go back to some ridiculous argument involving the Tables validity that holds no water.
Quote:I had a sneaky suspicion you were talking about that male. I actually received it from a professional hunter active in Central African Republic. He got it directly from a client in Tanzania. He's actually going to Masailand after the current season. The only reason I shared it is because of the scale which 'verifies' the weight. I know it's not 100% certain this weight is accurate but doesn't his size and full belly make it somewhat believable?
A professional Hunter got it 2nd hand from a trophy client in a trophy hunting reserve?
And you obviously don't know what you're talking about with regards to "masailand"
Is he talking about a Lodge in Arusha or the private hunting company?
"Masai Land" is anywhere Masai live and that would be throughout Tanzania and neighboring countries I'm sure.
And the scale verifies nothing, trophy hunters will hide beef and weights in their catches to exaggerate the weights, you see this in fishing as well. Hence why SCI doesn't record weights because they can be skewed.
Lastly you comparing a private trophy hunters claim to a verified weight from the biologist involved is a joke.
Quote:Lopez' being added twice isn't the only error. I have more remarks which I already addressed but I'm still waiting for answers. Feel free to PM me when you have some answers since it's off-topic here.
Of course it was, don't be ridiculous. Your interpretations mean little since you and her had numerous debates over the table.
The table as it stands is by far the most in depth of its kind, almost all of the weights come from first hand sources. The fact that you try and deny that is on you but it's wrong.
Quote:Well you doubted his presence overall despite him appearing in almost every photo. He's a wildlife veterinarian which makes me assume he was there almost the whole time since he's involved in rescuing the cat. The 2014 study mentioned the exceptional male's weight with Iman Memarian as the source (i.e. personal communication). I contacted him and he said the same thing to me. You and AndresVida did too and again received the same information. Now there's an offical report where the decision or proposal is made to euthanize the cat, meaning nothing life-saving can be done. At this point he weighed 95kg.
You questioning the official report signed by Memarian and two more professors with no reason is what I call astounding.
How many of those photos are of the cat being weighed?
How many of them involve measurements?
Once again, an "official report" that is left to interpretation doesn't make your weight claims valid.
Quote:Lets simplify, you are making assumptions based off a report that presents no real verification of multiple weights claimed.
By now I have explained enough about the report. You deem the report not a true verification but merely an assumption. We are seeing things differently here. You deem an Instagram message from a biologist worthy of a verification, but a signed clinical report by a wildlife veterinarian and professors isn't.
Quote:Why? So you can avoid the proof and go back to some ridiculous argument involving the Tables validity that holds no water.
I already told you why; because these are your criteria. You question literally anything about leopard's weights (e.g. scale presence, scale capacity, ...) but it isn't vice versa for jaguars. So I'd like to see "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of jaguar Lopez. Funnily you once said "Unfortunately I haven't been able to get the measurements on the Monster 148kg Jag measured by Hoogesteijin but if we could get them then that would really be interesting." so it's not that you refuse to share it, it's because you can't.
Quote:A professional Hunter got it 2nd hand from a trophy client in a trophy hunting reserve?
Indeed he received it directly from a client.
Quote:And you obviously don't know what you're talking about with regards to "masailand"
Is he talking about a Lodge in Arusha or the private hunting company?
"Masai Land" is anywhere Masai live and that would be throughout Tanzania and neighboring countries I'm sure.
We're not talking about a lodge or a company at all. I know very well what I'm talking about and so does the professional hunter. We're talking about the region Masailand which stretches across southern Kenya and northern Tanzania:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Quote:And the scale verifies nothing, trophy hunters will hide beef and weights in their catches to exaggerate the weights, you see this in fishing as well. Hence why SCI doesn't record weights because they can be skewed.
I know cheating happens in fishing sport like recently a champion fisher got caught adding weight to his fish in the US. But funny that you mention SCI since some time ago you said that "Weights aren't required for score but the few we have from the top 10 list have been sub 90kg." So that's great to hear that the weights are possibly skewed.
Quote:Lastly you comparing a private trophy hunters claim to a verified weight from the biologist involved is a joke.
Wow hold on, it was you who brought up "FB trophy hunter posts/claims", not me. I never compared the two because as I've said before, comparing hunter records to scientific ones is comparing apples to oranges. I suggest you take that back.
Quote:Of course it was, don't be ridiculous. Your interpretations mean little since you and her had numerous debates over the table.
The table as it stands is by far the most in depth of its kind, almost all of the weights come from first hand sources. The fact that you try and deny that is on you but it's wrong.
I have some valid remarks on the most recent table so again you can PM me with the explanation or you can forward my remarks to the creator.
Quote:How many of those photos are of the cat being weighed?
How many of them involve measurements?
Once again, an "official report" that is left to interpretation doesn't make your weight claims valid.
You said he was never there just so you can question the weights he provided. You received voice messages from him explaining everything (you should be thankful) and now I present you the clinical report signed by him and two more professors. Still the weight isn't valid and everything is just an assumption. Please help me know the difference between a biologist, a wildlife veterinarian and two professors of surgery and radiology department. Because the words coming from the biologist mean more to you. Why?
Nothing above is worth responding too at this stage.
Except with regards to "masailand"
You obviously don't know what you're talking about.
The area you just highlighted is the Masai's legal land. It's where the government allocated their property and agreed to let them still live there amongst the wild, similar to what you see in the states for Native Americans except that was originally their homeland. It's not a park or reserve.
Quote:Nothing above is worth responding too at this stage.
That's the easy way out. You got cornered so as usual you abandon the discussion.
Quote:The area you just highlighted is the Masai's legal land. It's where the government allocated their property and agreed to let them still live there amongst the wild, similar to what you see in the states for Native Americans except that was originally their homeland. It's not a park or reserve.
So you admit it's a region/area now? I thought it was "a Lodge in Arusha" or "a private hunting company"? I know very well who inhabits Masailand and am aware of it not being a park or reserve. This doesn't change the fact that this specific leopard was hunted in this region, in the Tanzanian part.
Try reading more carefully next time
*This image is copyright of its original author
Copy-pasting your post isn't going to change the fact that you were wrong. It was neither a lodge or a hunting company. It was the region itself the hunter was talking about just like Rowland Wards Records mentions two leopards being from Masailand. You posted it yourself (post #349)
Let’s try this one last time
*This image is copyright of its original author
Check post #386 for the map of Masailand where the leopard has been hunted.
(01-26-2023, 02:14 AM)Pckts Wrote: You do realize that this cat was captured no differently and claims were made. Yet no clarification or proof of said claims have been presented.
You also interpreting a report means little, we've already seen numerous members here try to do the same on post mortem reports only to get in trouble for making assumptions.
What are you not understanding? The same person who weighed and presented Jokers measurements also presented Mangos. You know, the one who provided actual capture dates and corresponding body measurements and weighing protocols.
Nice try though
Literally the Tanzanian Leopard hanging from the scale is a FB trophy hunter post. The weight claims mean nothing as they will load the cats with weights or have faulty scales.
Of course it does if they're actively updating a table or else you're left with errors like what happened with the persian table. The fact that you don't seem to understand this or acknowledge it says a lot.
Which weighing was he there for? The 115kg? The 98kg? The about 100kg? The 95kg? Or maybe it has to do with the fact that he doesn't have the measurements or capture data and needs to be told what publication they are from?
Once again, the amount of excuses you try and make for the Jaguar table on being invalid while accepting weights without any actual data or proof for persian leopards is astounding.
I'm not sure you know what 2nd hand means?
Van Neer wasn't present during the capture of these cats. They are by definition 2nd hand *belonged to someone else*
Quote:You do realize that this cat was captured no differently and claims were made. Yet no clarification or proof of said claims have been presented.
You also interpreting a report means little, we've already seen numerous members here try to do the same on post mortem reports only to get in trouble for making assumptions.
You do realise the proof is right there in front of you, backing Iman Memarian's claims (hint: report).
I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding post mortem reports but in this case we're dealing with a live cat although they were about to put it out of its misery.
Quote:What are you not understanding? The same person who weighed and presented Jokers measurements also presented Mangos. You know, the one who provided actual capture dates and corresponding body measurements and weighing protocols.
Nice try though
Why don't you share everything about 'Mango' instead of an "about X-"weight. And give me "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of outlier male Lopez. Those are your own criteria so you should be able to right?
Quote:Literally the Tanzanian Leopard hanging from the scale is a FB trophy hunter post. The weight claims mean nothing as they will load the cats with weights or have faulty scales.
I had a sneaky suspicion you were talking about that male. I actually received it from a professional hunter active in Central African Republic. He got it directly from a client in Tanzania. He's actually going to Masailand after the current season. The only reason I shared it is because of the scale which 'verifies' the weight. I know it's not 100% certain this weight is accurate but doesn't his size and full belly make it somewhat believable?
Quote:Of course it does if they're actively updating a table or else you're left with errors like what happened with the persian table. The fact that you don't seem to understand this or acknowledge it says a lot.
Lopez' being added twice isn't the only error. I have more remarks which I already addressed but I'm still waiting for answers. Feel free to PM me when you have some answers since it's off-topic here.
Quote:Which weighing was he there for? The 115kg? The 98kg? The about 100kg? The 95kg? Or maybe it has to do with the fact that he doesn't have the measurements or capture data and needs to be told what publication they are from?
Once again, the amount of excuses you try and make for the Jaguar table on being invalid while accepting weights without any actual data or proof for persian leopards is astounding.
Well you doubted his presence overall despite him appearing in almost every photo. He's a wildlife veterinarian which makes me assume he was there almost the whole time since he's involved in rescuing the cat. The 2014 study mentioned the exceptional male's weight with Iman Memarian as the source (i.e. personal communication). I contacted him and he said the same thing to me. You and AndresVida did too and again received the same information. Now there's an offical report where the decision or proposal is made to euthanize the cat, meaning nothing life-saving can be done. At this point he weighed 95kg.
You questioning the official report signed by Memarian and two more professors with no reason is what I call astounding.
Quote:I'm not sure you know what 2nd hand means?
Van Neer wasn't present during the capture of these cats. They are by definition 2nd hand *belonged to someone else*
Again, they measured the skulls themselves . They borrowed the skulls from two Belgian museums who did not measure them. The measurements are therefore from a first-hand source.
Quote:You do realise the proof is right there in front of you, backing Iman Memarian's claims (hint: report).
I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding post mortem reports but in this case we're dealing with a live cat although they were about to put it out of its misery.
Lets simplify, you are making assumptions based off a report that presents no real verification of multiple weights claimed.
Quote:Why don't you share everything about 'Mango' instead of an "about X-"weight. And give me "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of outlier male Lopez. Those are your own criteria so you should be able to right?
Why? So you can avoid the proof and go back to some ridiculous argument involving the Tables validity that holds no water.
Quote:I had a sneaky suspicion you were talking about that male. I actually received it from a professional hunter active in Central African Republic. He got it directly from a client in Tanzania. He's actually going to Masailand after the current season. The only reason I shared it is because of the scale which 'verifies' the weight. I know it's not 100% certain this weight is accurate but doesn't his size and full belly make it somewhat believable?
A professional Hunter got it 2nd hand from a trophy client in a trophy hunting reserve?
And you obviously don't know what you're talking about with regards to "masailand"
Is he talking about a Lodge in Arusha or the private hunting company?
"Masai Land" is anywhere Masai live and that would be throughout Tanzania and neighboring countries I'm sure.
And the scale verifies nothing, trophy hunters will hide beef and weights in their catches to exaggerate the weights, you see this in fishing as well. Hence why SCI doesn't record weights because they can be skewed.
Lastly you comparing a private trophy hunters claim to a verified weight from the biologist involved is a joke.
Quote:Lopez' being added twice isn't the only error. I have more remarks which I already addressed but I'm still waiting for answers. Feel free to PM me when you have some answers since it's off-topic here.
Of course it was, don't be ridiculous. Your interpretations mean little since you and her had numerous debates over the table.
The table as it stands is by far the most in depth of its kind, almost all of the weights come from first hand sources. The fact that you try and deny that is on you but it's wrong.
Quote:Well you doubted his presence overall despite him appearing in almost every photo. He's a wildlife veterinarian which makes me assume he was there almost the whole time since he's involved in rescuing the cat. The 2014 study mentioned the exceptional male's weight with Iman Memarian as the source (i.e. personal communication). I contacted him and he said the same thing to me. You and AndresVida did too and again received the same information. Now there's an offical report where the decision or proposal is made to euthanize the cat, meaning nothing life-saving can be done. At this point he weighed 95kg.
You questioning the official report signed by Memarian and two more professors with no reason is what I call astounding.
How many of those photos are of the cat being weighed?
How many of them involve measurements?
Once again, an "official report" that is left to interpretation doesn't make your weight claims valid.
Quote:Lets simplify, you are making assumptions based off a report that presents no real verification of multiple weights claimed.
By now I have explained enough about the report. You deem the report not a true verification but merely an assumption. We are seeing things differently here. You deem an Instagram message from a biologist worthy of a verification, but a signed clinical report by a wildlife veterinarian and professors isn't.
Quote:Why? So you can avoid the proof and go back to some ridiculous argument involving the Tables validity that holds no water.
I already told you why; because these are your criteria. You question literally anything about leopard's weights (e.g. scale presence, scale capacity, ...) but it isn't vice versa for jaguars. So I'd like to see "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of jaguar Lopez. Funnily you once said "Unfortunately I haven't been able to get the measurements on the Monster 148kg Jag measured by Hoogesteijin but if we could get them then that would really be interesting." so it's not that you refuse to share it, it's because you can't.
Quote:A professional Hunter got it 2nd hand from a trophy client in a trophy hunting reserve?
Indeed he received it directly from a client.
Quote:And you obviously don't know what you're talking about with regards to "masailand"
Is he talking about a Lodge in Arusha or the private hunting company?
"Masai Land" is anywhere Masai live and that would be throughout Tanzania and neighboring countries I'm sure.
We're not talking about a lodge or a company at all. I know very well what I'm talking about and so does the professional hunter. We're talking about the region Masailand which stretches across southern Kenya and northern Tanzania:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Quote:And the scale verifies nothing, trophy hunters will hide beef and weights in their catches to exaggerate the weights, you see this in fishing as well. Hence why SCI doesn't record weights because they can be skewed.
I know cheating happens in fishing sport like recently a champion fisher got caught adding weight to his fish in the US. But funny that you mention SCI since some time ago you said that "Weights aren't required for score but the few we have from the top 10 list have been sub 90kg." So that's great to hear that the weights are possibly skewed.
Quote:Lastly you comparing a private trophy hunters claim to a verified weight from the biologist involved is a joke.
Wow hold on, it was you who brought up "FB trophy hunter posts/claims", not me. I never compared the two because as I've said before, comparing hunter records to scientific ones is comparing apples to oranges. I suggest you take that back.
Quote:Of course it was, don't be ridiculous. Your interpretations mean little since you and her had numerous debates over the table.
The table as it stands is by far the most in depth of its kind, almost all of the weights come from first hand sources. The fact that you try and deny that is on you but it's wrong.
I have some valid remarks on the most recent table so again you can PM me with the explanation or you can forward my remarks to the creator.
Quote:How many of those photos are of the cat being weighed?
How many of them involve measurements?
Once again, an "official report" that is left to interpretation doesn't make your weight claims valid.
You said he was never there just so you can question the weights he provided. You received voice messages from him explaining everything (you should be thankful) and now I present you the clinical report signed by him and two more professors. Still the weight isn't valid and everything is just an assumption. Please help me know the difference between a biologist, a wildlife veterinarian and two professors of surgery and radiology department. Because the words coming from the biologist mean more to you. Why?
Nothing above is worth responding too at this stage.
Except with regards to "masailand"
You obviously don't know what you're talking about.
The area you just highlighted is the Masai's legal land. It's where the government allocated their property and agreed to let them still live there amongst the wild, similar to what you see in the states for Native Americans except that was originally their homeland. It's not a park or reserve.
Quote:Nothing above is worth responding too at this stage.
That's the easy way out. You got cornered so as usual you abandon the discussion.
Quote:The area you just highlighted is the Masai's legal land. It's where the government allocated their property and agreed to let them still live there amongst the wild, similar to what you see in the states for Native Americans except that was originally their homeland. It's not a park or reserve.
So you admit it's a region/area now? I thought it was "a Lodge in Arusha" or "a private hunting company"? I know very well who inhabits Masailand and am aware of it not being a park or reserve. This doesn't change the fact that this specific leopard was hunted in this region, in the Tanzanian part.
Try reading more carefully next time
*This image is copyright of its original author
Copy-pasting your post isn't going to change the fact that you were wrong. It was neither a lodge or a hunting company. It was the region itself the hunter was talking about just like Rowland Wards Records mentions two leopards being from Masailand. You posted it yourself (post #349)
Let’s try this one last time
*This image is copyright of its original author
Check post #386 for the map of Masailand where the leopard has been hunted.
What are you not getting?
Tanzani and Kenya are countries next to one another. AKA “neighboring countries”
*This image is copyright of its original author
That area in read is where Masai inhabit. It’s not a park or reserve.
Masai land could be Ngorongoro, Tarangire, Serengeti, Masai Mara, Selous, etc.
(01-26-2023, 03:25 AM)Luipaard Wrote: You do realise the proof is right there in front of you, backing Iman Memarian's claims (hint: report).
I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding post mortem reports but in this case we're dealing with a live cat although they were about to put it out of its misery.
Why don't you share everything about 'Mango' instead of an "about X-"weight. And give me "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of outlier male Lopez. Those are your own criteria so you should be able to right?
I had a sneaky suspicion you were talking about that male. I actually received it from a professional hunter active in Central African Republic. He got it directly from a client in Tanzania. He's actually going to Masailand after the current season. The only reason I shared it is because of the scale which 'verifies' the weight. I know it's not 100% certain this weight is accurate but doesn't his size and full belly make it somewhat believable?
Lopez' being added twice isn't the only error. I have more remarks which I already addressed but I'm still waiting for answers. Feel free to PM me when you have some answers since it's off-topic here.
Well you doubted his presence overall despite him appearing in almost every photo. He's a wildlife veterinarian which makes me assume he was there almost the whole time since he's involved in rescuing the cat. The 2014 study mentioned the exceptional male's weight with Iman Memarian as the source (i.e. personal communication). I contacted him and he said the same thing to me. You and AndresVida did too and again received the same information. Now there's an offical report where the decision or proposal is made to euthanize the cat, meaning nothing life-saving can be done. At this point he weighed 95kg.
You questioning the official report signed by Memarian and two more professors with no reason is what I call astounding.
Again, they measured the skulls themselves . They borrowed the skulls from two Belgian museums who did not measure them. The measurements are therefore from a first-hand source.
Quote:You do realise the proof is right there in front of you, backing Iman Memarian's claims (hint: report).
I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding post mortem reports but in this case we're dealing with a live cat although they were about to put it out of its misery.
Lets simplify, you are making assumptions based off a report that presents no real verification of multiple weights claimed.
Quote:Why don't you share everything about 'Mango' instead of an "about X-"weight. And give me "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of outlier male Lopez. Those are your own criteria so you should be able to right?
Why? So you can avoid the proof and go back to some ridiculous argument involving the Tables validity that holds no water.
Quote:I had a sneaky suspicion you were talking about that male. I actually received it from a professional hunter active in Central African Republic. He got it directly from a client in Tanzania. He's actually going to Masailand after the current season. The only reason I shared it is because of the scale which 'verifies' the weight. I know it's not 100% certain this weight is accurate but doesn't his size and full belly make it somewhat believable?
A professional Hunter got it 2nd hand from a trophy client in a trophy hunting reserve?
And you obviously don't know what you're talking about with regards to "masailand"
Is he talking about a Lodge in Arusha or the private hunting company?
"Masai Land" is anywhere Masai live and that would be throughout Tanzania and neighboring countries I'm sure.
And the scale verifies nothing, trophy hunters will hide beef and weights in their catches to exaggerate the weights, you see this in fishing as well. Hence why SCI doesn't record weights because they can be skewed.
Lastly you comparing a private trophy hunters claim to a verified weight from the biologist involved is a joke.
Quote:Lopez' being added twice isn't the only error. I have more remarks which I already addressed but I'm still waiting for answers. Feel free to PM me when you have some answers since it's off-topic here.
Of course it was, don't be ridiculous. Your interpretations mean little since you and her had numerous debates over the table.
The table as it stands is by far the most in depth of its kind, almost all of the weights come from first hand sources. The fact that you try and deny that is on you but it's wrong.
Quote:Well you doubted his presence overall despite him appearing in almost every photo. He's a wildlife veterinarian which makes me assume he was there almost the whole time since he's involved in rescuing the cat. The 2014 study mentioned the exceptional male's weight with Iman Memarian as the source (i.e. personal communication). I contacted him and he said the same thing to me. You and AndresVida did too and again received the same information. Now there's an offical report where the decision or proposal is made to euthanize the cat, meaning nothing life-saving can be done. At this point he weighed 95kg.
You questioning the official report signed by Memarian and two more professors with no reason is what I call astounding.
How many of those photos are of the cat being weighed?
How many of them involve measurements?
Once again, an "official report" that is left to interpretation doesn't make your weight claims valid.
Quote:Lets simplify, you are making assumptions based off a report that presents no real verification of multiple weights claimed.
By now I have explained enough about the report. You deem the report not a true verification but merely an assumption. We are seeing things differently here. You deem an Instagram message from a biologist worthy of a verification, but a signed clinical report by a wildlife veterinarian and professors isn't.
Quote:Why? So you can avoid the proof and go back to some ridiculous argument involving the Tables validity that holds no water.
I already told you why; because these are your criteria. You question literally anything about leopard's weights (e.g. scale presence, scale capacity, ...) but it isn't vice versa for jaguars. So I'd like to see "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of jaguar Lopez. Funnily you once said "Unfortunately I haven't been able to get the measurements on the Monster 148kg Jag measured by Hoogesteijin but if we could get them then that would really be interesting." so it's not that you refuse to share it, it's because you can't.
Quote:A professional Hunter got it 2nd hand from a trophy client in a trophy hunting reserve?
Indeed he received it directly from a client.
Quote:And you obviously don't know what you're talking about with regards to "masailand"
Is he talking about a Lodge in Arusha or the private hunting company?
"Masai Land" is anywhere Masai live and that would be throughout Tanzania and neighboring countries I'm sure.
We're not talking about a lodge or a company at all. I know very well what I'm talking about and so does the professional hunter. We're talking about the region Masailand which stretches across southern Kenya and northern Tanzania:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Quote:And the scale verifies nothing, trophy hunters will hide beef and weights in their catches to exaggerate the weights, you see this in fishing as well. Hence why SCI doesn't record weights because they can be skewed.
I know cheating happens in fishing sport like recently a champion fisher got caught adding weight to his fish in the US. But funny that you mention SCI since some time ago you said that "Weights aren't required for score but the few we have from the top 10 list have been sub 90kg." So that's great to hear that the weights are possibly skewed.
Quote:Lastly you comparing a private trophy hunters claim to a verified weight from the biologist involved is a joke.
Wow hold on, it was you who brought up "FB trophy hunter posts/claims", not me. I never compared the two because as I've said before, comparing hunter records to scientific ones is comparing apples to oranges. I suggest you take that back.
Quote:Of course it was, don't be ridiculous. Your interpretations mean little since you and her had numerous debates over the table.
The table as it stands is by far the most in depth of its kind, almost all of the weights come from first hand sources. The fact that you try and deny that is on you but it's wrong.
I have some valid remarks on the most recent table so again you can PM me with the explanation or you can forward my remarks to the creator.
Quote:How many of those photos are of the cat being weighed?
How many of them involve measurements?
Once again, an "official report" that is left to interpretation doesn't make your weight claims valid.
You said he was never there just so you can question the weights he provided. You received voice messages from him explaining everything (you should be thankful) and now I present you the clinical report signed by him and two more professors. Still the weight isn't valid and everything is just an assumption. Please help me know the difference between a biologist, a wildlife veterinarian and two professors of surgery and radiology department. Because the words coming from the biologist mean more to you. Why?
Nothing above is worth responding too at this stage.
Except with regards to "masailand"
You obviously don't know what you're talking about.
The area you just highlighted is the Masai's legal land. It's where the government allocated their property and agreed to let them still live there amongst the wild, similar to what you see in the states for Native Americans except that was originally their homeland. It's not a park or reserve.
Quote:Nothing above is worth responding too at this stage.
That's the easy way out. You got cornered so as usual you abandon the discussion.
Quote:The area you just highlighted is the Masai's legal land. It's where the government allocated their property and agreed to let them still live there amongst the wild, similar to what you see in the states for Native Americans except that was originally their homeland. It's not a park or reserve.
So you admit it's a region/area now? I thought it was "a Lodge in Arusha" or "a private hunting company"? I know very well who inhabits Masailand and am aware of it not being a park or reserve. This doesn't change the fact that this specific leopard was hunted in this region, in the Tanzanian part.
Try reading more carefully next time
*This image is copyright of its original author
Copy-pasting your post isn't going to change the fact that you were wrong. It was neither a lodge or a hunting company. It was the region itself the hunter was talking about just like Rowland Wards Records mentions two leopards being from Masailand. You posted it yourself (post #349)
Let’s try this one last time
*This image is copyright of its original author
Check post #386 for the map of Masailand where the leopard has been hunted.
What are you not getting?
Tanzani and Kenya are countries next to one another. AKA “neighboring countries”
*This image is copyright of its original author
That area in read is where Masai inhabit. It’s not a park or reserve.
Masai land could be Ngorongoro, Tarangire, Serengeti, Masai Mara, Selous, etc.
You said it's throughout Tanzania AND neighbouring countries in plural while it's located in Tanzania and Kenya only. I know it's not a park or reserve but it's neither a lodge or professional hunting company. The professional hunter who sent it to me was literally referring to the area. That's why I had to post this map for you to understand and which you're now posting as well for some reason?
I honestly don't know what you're trying to achieve here. I received a photo of a hunted leopard who's weighed on a scale so I thought it was worth sharing. I asked him where it took place and he answered Masailand and since hunting is banned in Kenya, that means it took place in the Tanzanian side of Masailand. Then you start making a fuss, saying that I compare it to "verified" jaguar data from a biologist which I didn't. Or that the figure can be skewed because they can add extra beef or add weights. I clearly said the male obviously had stomach content which is clearly visible plus with his overall appearance combined, his weight is believable.
You do like photos of hunted cougars with a photo of the scale so what's the fuss? A bit hypocrite I must say.
01-31-2023, 03:57 AM( This post was last modified: 01-31-2023, 04:12 AM by Luipaard )
I acquired info regarding a Persian male leopard that was hunted down after he attacked a female villager in Turkey, in 1974. The man who shot the leopard was Ahmet Çalışkan. He was a hunter, village headman and a guard. He can be seen here pointing at the leopard:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Here's a page where they mention its body measurements in Turkish:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Translated it says the following:
"I saw the shot leopard at the Veterinary Research Station, took pictures and took measurements. I'm taking these below.
Animal shot: Anatolian Parsi (Felis pardus tulliana) Gender: Male Estimated age: 8-10 Weight: 65 Kg Body length: 139 cm (From the nose to the coccyx) Tail length: 97.5 cm Body length (including Tail): 236.5 Body height (Front shoulder): 70 cm
According to the measurements taken, this specimen is of medium size compared to the leopards living in Anatolia. It can be considered a little big compared to its relatives in the world. (In the future, I will mention that the Anatolian leopard is one of the largest of its kind in the world.) "
The leopard is now on display at the Natural History Museum of the General Directorate of Mineral Research and Exploration:
02-15-2023, 06:43 PM( This post was last modified: 02-15-2023, 06:52 PM by Luipaard )
Male leopard 'Tree' undergoes successful surgery in Thailand
"N Panpetch, veterinarian of Bueng Chawak non-hunting area and the Bueng Chawak Wildlife Management Development Center, Suphanburi Province, together with the officers anesthetized for treatment by surgical removal of an abnormal tumor growth of a male leopard named Tree, 15 years old, weighing 51.5 kilograms."
@Pckts I've come across this recent leopard rescue done by Kambiz, I know you're in contact with his so may you please ask him if they weighed and measured this animal? Because he never replies to dms
05-09-2023, 09:52 PM( This post was last modified: 05-10-2023, 04:51 PM by Pckts )
I’m so Last week we reported on an interaction between two of our resident male leopards; Paka & Neo. Neo, ~10 yrs old, is now the heaviest leopard in the reserve surpassing Mawenzi at last weigh-in. Paka, ~6 yrs old, is a juvenile and one of the smallest males on the reserve and has yet to firmly establish his territory. As you can see on the territory map he seems to wander quite a bit instead of holding one area for his own.
Paka ventured into Neo’s territory last week and Neo was less than pleased. AfriCat staff, vet students from UNAM and their professors were in the area when a fight broke out between the two. Neo seemed to be the aggressor defending his area, and Paka was observed maintaining a somewhat submissive stance for most of the interaction. After Neo moved off the group was able to evaluate Paka’s injuries and determined that some medical intervention was needed. Paka was then immobilized and taken to the clinic for wound care and quite a few sutures. He was released into a secure holding camp the next day to aid in his recovery. Neo was evaluated the next day and had minimal injuries. This type of interaction is not seen often on the reserve and has been thoroughly documented as part of our study of enclosed protected areas as conservation strategy.
@okonjima_nature_reserve
Neo
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is a small, private reserve with fenced protection and no other major predators.
Modern Weights and Measurements of Leopards
