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Styx Pride
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 (12-04-2022, 12:35 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: The relation between prides and male lions is a strained one. Male lions, especially larger coalitions are a huge drain on the prides resources. So, they are glad when the males make themself scarce for a while. A pride won't do anything to keep the male lions close like begging or offering sex. Yep, pride in a way wants and doesnt want their dominant males around, they take their food (which is -), but they provide protection (which is +), so in a way thats a balance. But pride cant keep their dominant males around if they are not in estrus and males have another mating opportunities in another pride. Their offspring in that pride means almost nothing to them ( i said almost nothing, as obiviously they mean something, otherwise they would kill them at first sigh), they will not stay and protect it with their lifes. Males are self-centered, they dont fight for pride or their offspring, thats wrong assumption and myth. They fight for themselves, their territory, because they know if they lose it, they lose all benefits of it, which is having prides/females under their belt, which provides mating opportunities and easy food, 2 most important things in male lions life.  (12-04-2022, 12:35 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: The relation between prides and male lions is a strained one. Male lions, especially larger coalitions are a huge drain on the prides resources. So, they are glad when the males make themself scarce for a while. A pride won't do anything to keep the male lions close like begging or offering sex. Duco Ndona, why are you preferring to use the word sex rather than mating? It’s not like they have bed room lights they get to turn it off before the act and so on, right? No right or wrong here, just curious why you use it so often. 
I wish I could say its becouse technically the term mating generally refers to sex with the purpose of creating offspring.
While sex is a more general term including all reasons an animal would have intercource for. But in reality Its just force of habit. 
"Males are self-centred"
I agree with almost everything you said expect this. I don't think they're necessarily more self-centred than lionesses, as one has to be self-aware to be self-centred. They've just evolved to have different instincts and different mating strategies. Lionesses, like almost all mammals, are more invested in the young than the males are because that's how reproduction works for them.
Styx pride regrouped after altercation with Nkuhlu young males, where they lost 1 sub member :
Photo credits : joandrebotha  *This image is copyright of its original author
@Tr1x24 Sorry but are you saying males don't care or protect their offspring?
How is this a myth? Their goal is to spread their genes, they take over new prides in hope of siring more cubs and therefore having a bigger chance of spreading their genes. They aren't smart enough or have the awareness that this strategy isn't always the best, they are simple animals, in their head mating more will increase their chances. However we see big coalitions splitting to protect multiple prides. The notion males have no instincts to defend their offspring makes absolutely no sense. Is this male carrying the cub on his mouth defending his territory or worried about the cub's safety? https://youtube.com/shorts/t4rFHylZ2ys?feature=share Is this male warning the pride female after she got aggressive with the cub him worried about his territory? https://youtu.be/ZshCfoFcvfg Is this male chasing the female away from the kill and only allowing his cubs to eat, him defending the territory and not worried about his offspring's growth? https://youtu.be/BPSWunb9vcQ Which by the way is a common behavior, males will often allow young cubs to eat first with them so they can grow strong, and they become less tolerant when the cubs grows bigger since they are not so vulnerable anymore. Is this male blatantly defending his 2 subadults sons from his other pride him defending his territory? At 3:45 https://youtu.be/dpjFS6Fl3_A Edit: I almost forgot about Mapogos protecting the cub from Mr.T: https://youtu.be/S6prLdjyLtU Surely they weren't defending their territory from him, but the cub in particular. The connection and relationship between females and cubs are obviously different from that of male and cubs, but to say males don't care or defend their offspring is completely incorrect and doesn't make sense in an evolutionary sense.
I think you are reading a bit to much in those sort of examples. Lots of those are more examples of the male lions pushing the lionesses around or competing over food than helping the cubs.
And sure a male lion may seem friendly to its offspring occasionally. That does not mean its going to fight to defend them the same way the lionesses would. If it favors him, he would have no issue abandoning them for better mating and feeding opportunities. Something a lioness would not do. And yes, they are smart enough to understand the consequences. They have grown up in a pride themselves afteral. (12-12-2022, 10:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @Tr1x24 Sorry but are you saying males don't care or protect their offspring? I didn't say that they dont care whatsoever, they obiviously do care, but to some extend (otherwise they would kill the cubs and bring female back to estrus themselves). Let me explain, male lions priorities : 1. Food (obiviously for sole survival) 2. Mating, 3. Rest (which includes their offspring). Females, when they have cubs, are different : 1. Food, 2.Offspring , 3. Rest (thats until they dont get back in estrus, when they are in estrus again, mating gets also back to 2nd place and offspring drops to 3rd, same as males). If male lions so care about their offspring, why then in 100% cases, when they lose their territory, they abandon and leave their offspring to get killed? Why they dont stay with them, and females, and defend them with their lives? Like females will do, who would die defending them. Or just stay with them, help them hunt, survive? Its obvious, they dont care for them to that extend. They will leave and search for new territory elsewhere. Or why they abandon their offspring for new pride, new mating opportunities? Obiviously because they prioritize mating over their offspring. And this is not only for lions, but majority of animals, mother is in most cases main and sometimes only protector of their offspring, dad's role changes from species to species. (12-12-2022, 10:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Is this male carrying the cub on his mouth defending his territory or worried about the cub's safety? I think he is just curious about the cub, "investigating" him, maybe wants to play with it, i dont think he is caring or helping him because he picked him up with his mouth. Males are also playfull, they will often play with their offspring, especially younger males, as it reminds them to their younger days. (12-12-2022, 10:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Is this male warning the pride female after she got aggressive with the cub him worried about his territory? He heard sounds of growling, and it looks like "instinct" reaction, he would do the same if there was 2 females there instead of cubs. (12-12-2022, 10:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Is this male chasing the female away from the kill and only allowing his cubs to eat, him defending the territory and not worried about his offspring's growth? Or is it, that they dont allow females to eat, because females are big, and will eat a lot of "their" food, so they dont allow them, while they dont even bother to chase small cubs, because they can eat like a bird, unnoticable to them?? And when cubs grow into subs, they are now agressive towards them more, because they can eat more of "their" food? (12-12-2022, 10:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Is this male blatantly defending his 2 subadults sons from his other pride him defending his territory? At 3:45 Obiviously you can find examples like this, when 2 pride encounter each others, that males will play peacemakers, because he hangs with both of them, but then again there is many other examples, where males will attack their own offspring from another pride, which they previously abandon, like Ndhzengas did to Styx pride with Kambulas recently, they mauled their own son. Obiviously we dont know everything what is going on in their heads and we cant explain every behavior. (12-12-2022, 10:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Edit: I almost forgot about Mapogos protecting the cub from Mr.T: They are dominating him over kill, not alowing him near the carcass. Mr T. in the end killed all their cubs. To rap this up, male lions do care for their offspring, but to some extend, which is nowhere near the lvl of lioness. We can say that male lion is protecting their offspring, but he is doing that with his territory, in which his offspring lives, when/if that territory is gone, his offspring will recieve no help from their father.  (12-13-2022, 01:13 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: i dont think he is caring or helping him because he picked him up with his mouth. Agreed, that's not how cubs are supposed to be carried. That male probably just walked off minutes later leaving the cub by itself and unprotected in the open with zero concern for it's safety. (12-12-2022, 10:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Is this male blatantly defending his 2 subadults sons from his other pride him defending his territory? At 3:45 That's some great footage I won't lie, in that case you can see that the male was trying to get in between them and protect the subadults. That's unusual though, I have also seen footage where the males join in to attack the cubs from one of their other prides so there's that too. Most of the time males just want to impose themselves on the situation with no particular goal or alliance. (12-12-2022, 10:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Is this male warning the pride female after she got aggressive with the cub him worried about his territory? That's generally just how males react when there's aggression being shown by the pride, It's more so asserting dominance on the situation than anything. I feel like there isn't anything in that video which clearly indicates that the male was specifically trying to protect the cub. (12-12-2022, 10:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Is this male chasing the female away from the kill and only allowing his cubs to eat, him defending the territory and not worried about his offspring's growth? Occasionally allowing the cubs to feed is the only somewhat common behavior among male lions which indicates a paternal instinct. This point is valid.  (12-12-2022, 10:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: this male blatantly defending his 2 subadults sons from his other pride him defending his territory? At 3:45This portion of the video of the father protecting his 2 sons from another pride is amazing! Isn't this part of the series on TV in Zambia with the "Holywood" pride "Ntsevu" pride, etc....???  (12-13-2022, 12:22 PM)BigLion39 Wrote:(12-12-2022, 10:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: this male blatantly defending his 2 subadults sons from his other pride him defending his territory? At 3:45This portion of the video of the father protecting his 2 sons from another pride is amazing! Isn't this part of the series on TV in Zambia with the "Holywood" pride "Ntsevu" pride, etc....??? Yes, it is. A few episodes later starts the story of the misfit cub.
12-15-2022, 05:08 AM
( This post was last modified: 12-15-2022, 05:27 AM by Mapokser
Edit Reason: Typo
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@Duco Ndona who said males will defend offspring with their lives like females do? I specifically said the relationship between them is different.
Males will defend cubs if they can, if they are outnumbered or don't have good odds to win the fight they'll obviously flee, I never denied they put themselves first. I stated they have instincts to protect them which is true. @Tr1x24 males abandon their offspring when they lose their territory because they get ousted, they leave, how are they suppose to do anything? Their cubs will either get killed or if old enough and female, stay in the pride. And they don't have motherly instincts to raise offspring. You said they don't protect them, only the territory, which isn't true and I replied to that statement specifically. The male is playing with the cub by taking him on his mouth? Like seriously? That's not how they play, you obviously know what the behavior of taking the a cub on its mouth means for a cat. If he was playing he would swipe the cub with his paw. Your argument for allowing cubs to eat makes no sense, lions can't even count to 3 and wouldn't remember how many cubs they have if they're not looking at them, but he somehow has the awareness that the cubs wouldn't eat much? Yes they may attack their own sons if they lose connection to them, but how is this an argument when we know females do the same? They do that all the time, Tsalalas and Othawas attacked their own daughters, hell Kambulas attack their life long sisters after not seeing them in a couple of weeks or months. If females ( creatures that die for their offspring ) will attack their offspring if they lose connection to them, why wouldn't males? You claimed males only fight for themsleves and won't protect their offspring, but that video proves you wrong, the male protected his 2 subadult sons despite him having nothing to gain from it, no food, no mating, no territory, he put himself between the females and subadults because his protection instincts for his offspring kicked in. The subs may have been killed if he wasn't there, but he was and they left unscathed, he protected them, period. As for Mapogos, they are not dominating him over a kill, you know very very well that coalition members eat before females and cubs, Mr.T had no problem eating with them, first sighting of him in the West again was in a buffalo kill with the others, the only reason he wasn't allowed any closer in the video was because a cub was there and they sensed Mr.T was hostile to it, if no cub was there Mr.T and the others would've chased the female and eat together. Or at least eat with the female. Females in no circumstances have more rights to feed thab a coalition male but she was feeding just fine abd Mr.T wasn't allowed, why? Because the female was with a cub and the kill had nothing to do with the malea behavior, they weren't defending a kill, but a cub. Mr.T killed the 3 cubs, as the ranger said, when no male was around. Anyway as I stated originally, nowhere did I say they care as much as females, I said the relationship was obviously different, but it's a fact they have instincts to protect their offspring and if they can ( meaning they have the upper hand ) they'll go out of their way to defend them. Obviously if it seems their rivals are stronger they'll leave as they prioritize their own safety.  (12-13-2022, 09:41 PM)afortich Wrote:(12-13-2022, 12:22 PM)BigLion39 Wrote:(12-12-2022, 10:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: this male blatantly defending his 2 subadults sons from his other pride him defending his territory? At 3:45This portion of the video of the father protecting his 2 sons from another pride is amazing! Isn't this part of the series on TV in Zambia with the "Holywood" pride "Ntsevu" pride, etc....??? The Misfit cub really got me. Too bad they ended up following Misfit after the sub-adult. (12-15-2022, 05:20 AM)BorntobeWild Wrote:(12-13-2022, 09:41 PM)afortich Wrote:(12-13-2022, 12:22 PM)BigLion39 Wrote:(12-12-2022, 10:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: this male blatantly defending his 2 subadults sons from his other pride him defending his territory? At 3:45This portion of the video of the father protecting his 2 sons from another pride is amazing! Isn't this part of the series on TV in Zambia with the "Holywood" pride "Ntsevu" pride, etc....??? I agree with you @BorntobeWild. I read somewhere on a posting from the year 2019 or 2020 that the misfit made it to adulthood, then, they lost track. |
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