There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
I made a quick search and this skull is a reconstruction of the same skull reported by Tao et al. (2016) from the Gansu Province in China. So the real size is 415 mm in GSL correctly measured and that figure of 18 inches (457 mm) was probably taken along the countors of the skull with a flexible tape. That is a common error in this type of pages where they sold replicas, they try to make it bigger than what it is. You can also use the ruler in the same image and you will see.
So, no skull of 457 mm from Machairodus/Amphimachairodus, the biggest one is of 415 mm, still a true giant.
I made a quick search and this skull is a reconstruction of the same skull reported by Tao et al. (2016) from the Gansu Province in China. So the real size is 415 mm in GSL correctly measured and that figure of 18 inches (457 mm) was probably taken along the countors of the skull with a flexible tape. That is a common error in this type of pages where they sold replicas, they try to make it bigger than what it is. You can also use the ruler in the same image and you will see.
So, no skull of 457 mm from Machairodus/Amphimachairodus, the biggest one is of 415 mm, still a true giant.
Thanks again for your answers! So no machairodont species has ever been 400+ kg.
(02-23-2022, 06:12 PM)tostwear Wrote: Thanks again for your answers! So no machairodont species has ever been 400+ kg.
Based in the available fossils, I would say no. In fact the biggest long bones (from M. lahayishupup and M kabir, for example) are about the same size as the largest Panthera species like Cave lions and Ngandong tiger, so a range of around 350 - 370 kg will be more correct. However, we can't discard that unknown specimens could be larger, but that is just speculation.
"Sabertooth cats were extinct carnivorans that have attracted great attention and controversy because of their unique dental morphology representing an entirely extinct mode of feeding specialization. Some of them are lion-sized or tiger-sized carnivorans who are widely interpreted as hunters of larger and more powerful preys than those of their modern nonsaber-toothed relatives. We report the discovery of a large sabertooth cat skull of Machairodus horribilis from the Late Miocene of northwestern China. It shares some characteristics with derived sabertooth cats, but also is similar to extant pantherines in some cranial characters. A functional morphological analysis suggests that it differed from most other machairodont felids and had a limited gape to hunt smaller preys. Its anatomical features provide new evidence for the diversity of killing bites even within in the largest saber-toothed carnivorans and offer an additional mechanism for the mosaic evolution leading to functional and morphological diversity in sabertooth cats."
Reading the article provided here, I separated some thoughts.
From the considerations of the above study, M. horribilis was an experience within the Taxon Machairodontinae, with anatomical and angular differences in jaw opening, which made the “classical view of the shear bite in large animals” deficient. An anatomically divergent point from the posterior branches of the Machairodo family and derivatives (Smilodon/Homoterium), which denotes an unknown occupation in the food chain – and suggestive proximity to modern cats (deep glenoid fossa). Simply to deduce that M. Horribilis is a giant specializing in small prey is to reduce a whole wide and diverse adaptive conjuncture to a matter of ease of predation. Although the study of Anatomy has a wide reach in understanding what animals are like in life, it is better to wait for what is to come from other branches of science. Something doesn't beat, the largest skull skillfully built to prey on small animals; here may be the mistake of the whole explanatory set.
The question is also facing a very old discussion, which is how real saber teeth kill their prey. Evolution really doesn't always move towards improvement, whatever the gigantic saber feline, anything bigger than 14/15cm is not an advantage, either to kill or to feed. This way of killing never made much sense: “a big bite on the neck and waiting for the blood to flow” – terrestrial predators do not have this behavior. Many scientists have considered biting the stomach, exposing organs/guts/viscera as a killing strategy (Smilodon), in front of two huge teeth that do more harm than help. After exceeding this length, disadvantages and nuisances should be constant. Killing by tracheal crushing and/or suffocation is the most efficient killing strategy in the Felidae branch (among large cats). Some animals such as wolves and hyenas eat their prey alive, so there is a possibility that M. horribilis is a generalist predator and a pack cat with a unique feeding behavior. It does not need 120 degrees of mandibular opening, as it is positioned in a very different predation niche from its posterior derivatives. As well, it can be, contrary, a highly specialized predator in a small network of prey that has qualified them to develop a skull/jaw/throat set well adapted to their needs.
M. horríbilis was a very interesting feline. The answers to the unique aspects of their bone anatomy can also be found in the differences rather than the similarities of other similar taxa. Gigantism, yes, was a model of evolution common to the branch, but the catalytic elements here are different, which may mean similar evolutionary paths - such as enormous body size - justified by factors not shared with other felines of the genus, presumably not associated to the evolutionary paths of later times.
“In northwest China, there is something peculiar about it in terms of the ecosystem that surrounds it.”
Was it a model of evolutionary success or failure?
"Sabertooth cats were extinct carnivorans that have attracted great attention and controversy because of their unique dental morphology representing an entirely extinct mode of feeding specialization. Some of them are lion-sized or tiger-sized carnivorans who are widely interpreted as hunters of larger and more powerful preys than those of their modern nonsaber-toothed relatives. We report the discovery of a large sabertooth cat skull of Machairodus horribilis from the Late Miocene of northwestern China. It shares some characteristics with derived sabertooth cats, but also is similar to extant pantherines in some cranial characters. A functional morphological analysis suggests that it differed from most other machairodont felids and had a limited gape to hunt smaller preys. Its anatomical features provide new evidence for the diversity of killing bites even within in the largest saber-toothed carnivorans and offer an additional mechanism for the mosaic evolution leading to functional and morphological diversity in sabertooth cats."
Reading the article provided here, I separated some thoughts.
From the considerations of the above study, M. horribilis was an experience within the Taxon Machairodontinae, with anatomical and angular differences in jaw opening, which made the “classical view of the shear bite in large animals” deficient. An anatomically divergent point from the posterior branches of the Machairodo family and derivatives (Smilodon/Homoterium), which denotes an unknown occupation in the food chain – and suggestive proximity to modern cats (deep glenoid fossa). Simply to deduce that M. Horribilis is a giant specializing in small prey is to reduce a whole wide and diverse adaptive conjuncture to a matter of ease of predation. Although the study of Anatomy has a wide reach in understanding what animals are like in life, it is better to wait for what is to come from other branches of science. Something doesn't beat, the largest skull skillfully built to prey on small animals; here may be the mistake of the whole explanatory set.
The question is also facing a very old discussion, which is how real saber teeth kill their prey. Evolution really doesn't always move towards improvement, whatever the gigantic saber feline, anything bigger than 14/15cm is not an advantage, either to kill or to feed. This way of killing never made much sense: “a big bite on the neck and waiting for the blood to flow” – terrestrial predators do not have this behavior. Many scientists have considered biting the stomach, exposing organs/guts/viscera as a killing strategy (Smilodon), in front of two huge teeth that do more harm than help. After exceeding this length, disadvantages and nuisances should be constant. Killing by tracheal crushing and/or suffocation is the most efficient killing strategy in the Felidae branch (among large cats). Some animals such as wolves and hyenas eat their prey alive, so there is a possibility that M. horribilis is a generalist predator and a pack cat with a unique feeding behavior. It does not need 120 degrees of mandibular opening, as it is positioned in a very different predation niche from its posterior derivatives. As well, it can be, contrary, a highly specialized predator in a small network of prey that has qualified them to develop a skull/jaw/throat set well adapted to their needs.
M. horríbilis was a very interesting feline. The answers to the unique aspects of their bone anatomy can also be found in the differences rather than the similarities of other similar taxa. Gigantism, yes, was a model of evolution common to the branch, but the catalytic elements here are different, which may mean similar evolutionary paths - such as enormous body size - justified by factors not shared with other felines of the genus, presumably not associated to the evolutionary paths of later times.
“In northwest China, there is something peculiar about it in terms of the ecosystem that surrounds it.”
Was it a model of evolutionary success or failure?
I think you guys may know more than my school books so I want to see what else I can learn... I posted a question asking for help for a school project that's due tomorrow by midnight. Hopefully someone can help me out. My FECO is green.
