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Who is the "king" of tigers? - Bengal or Amur
Who is the "king" of tigers? - Bengal or Amur
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Who is the "king" of tigers? - Bengal or Amur
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 (08-25-2022, 02:45 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:Unfortunately it’s a 2nd hand source sighting officials posted on a social media sight. Can’t put much stock in that with regards to the 2-3 year old males weight. Xinhua is the same as TOI, you’d need real sources to confirm any claims.(08-24-2022, 03:06 PM)Pckts Wrote:(08-24-2022, 07:50 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: This young male Amur tiger named Wandashan No.1 was sedated in April 2021 when he was about 2 - 2.5 years old, and weighed about 225 kg.  (08-24-2022, 02:26 PM)JUJOMORE Wrote: More about Hassinger's tiger.Now that's interesting information. Rowland Ward's 27th edition of Big Game Hunting. Is it possible for you to post the scans of pages mentioning the methods of measurements used in the book (eg. Method of Measurement. 17) Also, can you post the pages with other records of bengal tigers in the book (length, height, weight, etc) Thanks   (08-25-2022, 08:11 PM)Khan85 Wrote:To my knowledge neither Rowland Ward nor SCI publish length measurements anymore. They have been replaced by those of the skulls. I would like to have them. I don't know in which edition they stopped publishing them, although they have data, in addition to the skull measurements, the hunter and the PH have to measure the total length of the feline including the tail, lying on the ground on its side(08-24-2022, 02:26 PM)JUJOMORE Wrote: More about Hassinger's tiger.Now that's interesting information. Rowland Ward's 27th edition of Big Game Hunting. Here you can see the forms and measurement methods https://rowlandward.org/wp-content/uploa...book-2.pdf https://safariclub.org/official-measuring-forms/ And I specifically attach images of forms 15 and 16-D of SCI and 17 of RW.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
I also have a list of measures of tigers hunted in India and Nepal before 1921, but, to be honest, I don't remember where I found it, maybe in this same forum
 *This image is copyright of its original author
(08-24-2022, 04:01 PM)LonePredator Wrote:(08-24-2022, 03:06 PM)Pckts Wrote:(08-24-2022, 07:50 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: This young male Amur tiger named Wandashan No.1 was sedated in April 2021 when he was about 2 - 2.5 years old, and weighed about 225 kg. Hi, now, I know the 'along to curves' to 'in a straight line' length ratio of tigers, but what about height? Also, what's the rate for lions? (08-27-2022, 03:11 PM)acutidens150 Wrote:(08-24-2022, 04:01 PM)LonePredator Wrote:(08-24-2022, 03:06 PM)Pckts Wrote:(08-24-2022, 07:50 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: This young male Amur tiger named Wandashan No.1 was sedated in April 2021 when he was about 2 - 2.5 years old, and weighed about 225 kg. I can’t say about Lions because I have not yet seen enough data about Lion specimens and their measurements to check the correlation between ‘over curves’ and ‘between pegs’ length. Also, the height is usually not taken in curved form as far as I know. The height of Brown Bears and Polar Bears has been taken from scapula to the tip of the longest claw in the past which exaggerates their real height. ...But I don’t think this is the case for Siberian Tigers. I did not find any mention of the exact method of height measurements of the Tigers measured during the Siberian Tiger Project but in my opinion, the average shoulder height of 95cm is the actual, real shoulder height because this height makes the most sense and matches with the weights and other measurements of these Tigers.
Correct way to take shoulder height is a straight line from shoulder tip to the beginning of the heel pad. Over the curves will start at the top of the shoulder and press the tape along the contours of the forelimb then end at the top of the paw. You can usually add between 2-4” between the two.
Measurements of curves vs straight line is similar although possibly in male lions the addition of the mane could add a few more cm’s.  (08-25-2022, 03:01 AM)Pckts Wrote:(08-25-2022, 02:45 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:Unfortunately it’s a 2nd hand source sighting officials posted on a social media sight. Can’t put much stock in that with regards to the 2-3 year old males weight. Xinhua is the same as TOI, you’d need real sources to confirm any claims.(08-24-2022, 03:06 PM)Pckts Wrote:(08-24-2022, 07:50 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: This young male Amur tiger named Wandashan No.1 was sedated in April 2021 when he was about 2 - 2.5 years old, and weighed about 225 kg. For now, the largest Bengal is still superior to the largest Amur because those monsters from Northeast India/Kaziranga/Assam look impossible to be contested as the prey base looks overwhelmingly favorable to these guys. However, the days of weakling Amurs seem also to be over as thing starts to get a little better for the Amur tigers, and we start to see the resurgence of the bigger and healthier specimens. (08-24-2022, 02:26 PM)JUJOMORE Wrote: More about Hassinger's tiger. The largest recorded Bengal tiger skull was almost 420 mm, and it was from Central India, not even from the region with the population that routinely produces the biggest specimens. It would be interesting to obtain the skull measurement from those specimens of the Northeast region, since the Kaziranga tigers look not only bulked up compared to other Bengal tigers, but also possessed distinctly a larger head. Their skull size must be staggering.  (08-23-2022, 10:56 PM)acutidens150 Wrote: @GuateGojira In my last comparative images I use 180 cm for the head-body length, but take in count that this length is from the tip of the nose to the root of the tail. Check that hunters of lions and tigers just said "base" of the tail, but did they actually moved the tail in in 90 degrees to check the real root of the tail? We don't know sadly, but if we asume they just took until the end of the hip bone, in that case the modern Amur tigers measured "between pegs" using the method of the old hunters, it will be about 190 cm, just like the Bengal tigers. So, again, I will say that both Bengal and Amur tigers measured the same in length-height and probably also skull. The difference is in the modern figures, where Amurs are lightes with smaller chest girths. About shoulder height, yes, those figures published are not the streched arm of the tigers, so the shoulder height straight could be a littler higher, about 1 meter and just like Bengal tigers (again).
Body size of the Bengal tiger (Panthera tigris tigris), modern records:
Well, this is something that I wanted to do several years ago, but the few time available and also the lack of data stoped me many times. However, now I manage to get both in my hands and I finally made the tables about the body size of the Bengal tiger using only modern records. This is also something that many people requested to me, so now is ready. I attach the PDF document here and I also share the images of the tables, here we go:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author So, the tables include an explanation about the details, and also you can see that I separated the weights and measurements in reliability levels, but also added a table with only the 100% confirmed figures that you expect will be quoted by scientists, as that is information that is review by peers. The list exhaust the measurements available but not the weights, as some of them were not included because are still not confirmed by me. So, this is an extra table NOT included in my document, where I do include all the weights that I could get, if there are missing figures you are free to add them:  *This image is copyright of its original author As we can see, the diference is very few, the 100% reliable average 212 kg for males, those that are via other sources but still confirmed and reliable average 213 kg and the overall sample is of 215 kg. So basically independently of the sample the average of the male Bengal tigers seems to be over 210 kg in modern records, using males over 3 years old. The Bhutan tigers are not published in any document but the figures were confirmed by me via Messenger, so I included them, and we can see that they are of the same body mass than the Thailand tigers, however the sample is still small and for the moment I don't know if there are more specimens (males and females) captured. The male of 166 kg I still have my doubts, as is too small for an adult male and the next one is of 180 kg, so maybe it was not in good shape (it was a little over 3 years), the table do not clarify that and even the body measurements do not match, so I made corrections that make sense. I also noted that the interest is focused in males, as there is no weight of females that I could add in an extra tables. Do we have some bias about the sex here? It seems so. Appart from all this I am happy that finally we have a good collection of figures of modern measurements and weights and we reached a moment when we no longer need to use the old hunting records as the main source. Of course I am not suggesting to discard them (like Dr Karanth or Dr Yamaguchi suggest, as they do not trust in them), but we can use it like a secondary reference and take the modern ones as the main source of data. I hope you like it, you can share it and use it. As always, any question, feel free to ask. Greetings and cheers.
Body size of the Amur tiger - update at 2023:
After 8 years I finally manage to make an update to my table about the size of the Amur (Siberian) tiger, but sadly there not too much to add, just one new figure and two that are still under review (250 and 270 kg, not yet included). So, here are the tables and I also attach the PDF for sharing:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author There are update in the tables itselves: 1 - Method of measuring changed based in the evidence available. 2 - Male 12 and 14 removed as they are the same 20 and 22. Why they changed its numbers? I don't know sadly. 3 - Separated the specimens of the Siberian Tiger Project and those of The Amur Tiger Programme. 4 - Colors and design is basically the same, but I remouved the total length and left the tail length, as are presented in scientific papers. You want the total length, you just need to add both with a calculator. 5 - References changed, I found all the original documents and I decided to use the authors, not just "STP Report", when possible. 6 - Added the new male of 250 kg in the historic figures, so the average is new, and is bigger than what I though. In fact, if the figure used is my estimation of 270 kg, the average will be of over 220 kg, like Mazak and Sunquist propused. So that is all, as always you are free to save it in your database, shared and if you have doubts, you can ask me. Greetings.  (08-10-2023, 12:32 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Body size of the Bengal tiger (Panthera tigris tigris), modern records: Excellent job per usual! My advice is to upload this compilation on Google docs just like I did with mine for jaguars. This means that as newer weights and measurements come to light you can update the sheet in real-time without having to publish new ones on the forum. Members who want the most up-to-date information can simply refer to the online sheet. (08-10-2023, 01:52 AM)Balam Wrote: Excellent job per usual! My advice is to upload this compilation on Google docs just like I did with mine for jaguars. This means that as newer weights and measurements come to light you can update the sheet in real-time without having to publish new ones on the forum. Members who want the most up-to-date information can simply refer to the online sheet. I love the idea! Very good advice, I will do it, as soon as I can. 
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