There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
Just like there are Gaur specialists amongst tigers, there are certain sloth bear specialists as well. One of the current ones is Ravan 1.0 from Satpura. The forest guards at Satpura said his territory used to be littered with sloth bear fur. Sloth bears are rarely present in high density where tigers are present (this was corroborated by a study). But, Ravan went out of his way to hunt them.
Another one was Charger of Pench (father of the famous Mataram). Apparently, he had an appetite for the furry bear. Sloth bears have insanely long claws (longer than tiger’s claws) that they use for digging and as a defence mechanism. One slash would leave a tiger incapacitated which would very well mean death. So, I am guessing they are only a certain number of tigers which view them as prey (mothers protecting cubs not withstanding).
I can’t believe this is even a debate, it’s always some bear fan in the mix that thinks these bears are some invincible creatures walking freely in paradise without ever getting touched but reality is far different than what some fanboys like to believe. for starters, sloth bears and tigers generally avoid each other and in a serious encounter between the two. sloth bears are nothing more than a food source for the tigers that specialize in bear killing. Ravan, Kala Pahad male of Pench, Charger (Pench), Wagdoh, Jabbar and countless Kanha males have been observed killing and eating sloth bears and this is just the tip of the iceberg, let’s say i’m reaching. just this month alone, T-120 of Ranthambore and the dominant male of Chuka beach in Pilibhit were both observed killing and feasting on sloth bears. so how rare is this occurrence, who’s dominant over what? pretty one sided debate if i’m being realistic. pardon the tone.
06-25-2022, 02:09 PM( This post was last modified: 06-25-2022, 02:14 PM by LonePredator )
(06-25-2022, 12:35 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: Just like there are Gaur specialists amongst tigers, there are certain sloth bear specialists as well. One of the current ones is Ravan 1.0 from Satpura. The forest guards at Satpura said his territory used to be littered with sloth bear fur. Sloth bears are rarely present in high density where tigers are present (this was corroborated by a study). But, Ravan went out of his way to hunt them.
Another one was Charger of Pench (father of the famous Mataram). Apparently, he had an appetite for the furry bear. Sloth bears have insanely long claws (longer than tiger’s claws) that they use for digging and as a defence mechanism. One slash would leave a tiger incapacitated which would very well mean death. So, I am guessing they are only a certain number of tigers which view them as prey (mothers protecting cubs not withstanding).
Bear claws don’t work like that. Bear claws are extremely blunt to such an extent that Bears rarely even use claw strikes in a fight unlike Tigers and Lions.
A claw strike from a Sloth Bear is unlikely to cause any serious damage to a Tiger.
(06-25-2022, 12:22 PM)Roflcopters Wrote: I can’t believe this is even a debate, it’s always some bear fan in the mix that thinks these bears are some invincible creatures walking freely in paradise without ever getting touched but reality is far different than what some fanboys like to believe. for starters, sloth bears and tigers generally avoid each other and in a serious encounter between the two. sloth bears are nothing more than a food source for the tigers that specialize in bear killing. Ravan, Kala Pahad male of Pench, Charger (Pench), Wagdoh, Jabbar and countless Kanha males have been observed killing and eating sloth bears and this is just the tip of the iceberg, let’s say i’m reaching. just this month alone, T-120 of Ranthambore and the dominant male of Chuka beach in Pilibhit were both observed killing and feasting on sloth bears. so how rare is this occurrence, who’s dominant over what? pretty one sided debate if i’m being realistic. pardon the tone.
I don't think this contradicts anything that Pckts said, to be honest. Some tigers do specialise in killing sloth bears, and are incredibly good at it. Generally speaking though, sloth bears are only a minor component of a tiger's diet, and not because they are too small to be worth bothering with (after all, tigers are opportunistic predators that will hunt monkeys, birds and porcupines, and also love to prey on wild boar, which are roughly the size of a male sloth bear). Sloth bears can be extremely aggressive in their own right, making them a tough prey to take on - especially when they are mothers defending their young. Faced with this aggression, many tigers will simply back off.
(06-25-2022, 02:09 PM)LonePredator Wrote:
(06-25-2022, 12:35 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: Just like there are Gaur specialists amongst tigers, there are certain sloth bear specialists as well. One of the current ones is Ravan 1.0 from Satpura. The forest guards at Satpura said his territory used to be littered with sloth bear fur. Sloth bears are rarely present in high density where tigers are present (this was corroborated by a study). But, Ravan went out of his way to hunt them.
Another one was Charger of Pench (father of the famous Mataram). Apparently, he had an appetite for the furry bear. Sloth bears have insanely long claws (longer than tiger’s claws) that they use for digging and as a defence mechanism. One slash would leave a tiger incapacitated which would very well mean death. So, I am guessing they are only a certain number of tigers which view them as prey (mothers protecting cubs not withstanding).
Bear claws don’t work like that. Bear claws are extremely blunt to such an extent that Bears rarely even use claw strikes in a fight unlike Tigers and Lions.
A claw strike from a Sloth Bear is unlikely to cause any serious damage to a Tiger.
Sloth bear claws are long and scimitar-shaped, like those of a sloth (which, funnily enough, is partly why they're called sloth bears). Their primary purpose is to split rocky termite mounds open; however, they are certainly long and strong enough to be able to inflict serious injury.
Quote:BAREILLY: A tiger found dead in a water hole in Dudhwa range of Dudwha National Park on Sunday may have been killed by a sloth bear, suspect Dudwha officials. While no pugmarks of another tiger were found around the water hole, images of a huge sloth bear have been captured by camera traps set 150 metres from the spot. The bear had a few scraches on its face and seemed to be moving about with difficulty.
"The nature of injuries on the neck and head of the tiger suggest they may have been caused during an attack by a sloth bear," said DTR field director Ramesh Pandey. The autopsy report submitted on Monday had said the tiger was killed by a "large carnivore" but did not specifically say it was another tiger.
Though a tiger being attacked by a bear is rare, Panday recalled an incident reported from Tadoba National Park in Maharashtra in 2018 when a male tiger, 'Matkasur', had picked up a fight with a sloth bear near a water hole. The fight was captured on camera by a tourist.
"The video showed the tiger was resting in the water when the sloth bear arrived with its cub. It fought with the bear possibly trying to defend its territory. But Matkasur lost the fight as it struggled to grip the bear's thick fur. Fortunately, the tiger survived," the field director said.
Pandey suspects that in Dudhwa, too, a similar situation arose. But in this case, the tiger was aged as it was over 12 years old. Such tigers are often thrown out of their territory and sometimes reside around water holes due to easy availability of prey. "This tiger may have fought with the sloth bear for dominance over the water hole as in Tadoba. However, this is not the final conclusion. We have also sought pictures captured by camera traps in Dudwha range during tiger census of 2018. This will help us in identifying if any other tiger is in this area.
"A bear is quite a powerful animal and its claws may cause deep wounds on the tiger's body," Pandey said.
Daksh Gangwar of Wildlife Trust of India, who was part of the veterinary team that conducted the autopsy, said, "The injuries were caused by a large powerful animal, possibly a carnivore. Such injuries can also be caused by a sloth bear because it has strong claws and can inflict serious injuries on a tiger."
(Side note: why are people so fixated on "vs" fights between tigers and bears? It feels like this topic has dominated most conversations about tigers on the board, including the "Premier" thread in the Edge of Extinction section.)
(06-25-2022, 12:22 PM)Roflcopters Wrote: I can’t believe this is even a debate, it’s always some bear fan in the mix that thinks these bears are some invincible creatures walking freely in paradise without ever getting touched but reality is far different than what some fanboys like to believe. for starters, sloth bears and tigers generally avoid each other and in a serious encounter between the two. sloth bears are nothing more than a food source for the tigers that specialize in bear killing. Ravan, Kala Pahad male of Pench, Charger (Pench), Wagdoh, Jabbar and countless Kanha males have been observed killing and eating sloth bears and this is just the tip of the iceberg, let’s say i’m reaching. just this month alone, T-120 of Ranthambore and the dominant male of Chuka beach in Pilibhit were both observed killing and feasting on sloth bears. so how rare is this occurrence, who’s dominant over what? pretty one sided debate if i’m being realistic. pardon the tone.
I don't think this contradicts anything that Pckts said, to be honest. Some tigers do specialise in killing sloth bears, and are incredibly good at it. Generally speaking though, sloth bears are only a minor component of a tiger's diet, and not because they are too small to be worth bothering with (after all, tigers are opportunistic predators that will hunt monkeys, birds and porcupines, and also love to prey on wild boar, which are roughly the size of a male sloth bear). Sloth bears can be extremely aggressive in their own right, making them a tough prey to take on - especially when they are mothers defending their young. Faced with this aggression, many tigers will simply back off.
(06-25-2022, 02:09 PM)LonePredator Wrote:
(06-25-2022, 12:35 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: Just like there are Gaur specialists amongst tigers, there are certain sloth bear specialists as well. One of the current ones is Ravan 1.0 from Satpura. The forest guards at Satpura said his territory used to be littered with sloth bear fur. Sloth bears are rarely present in high density where tigers are present (this was corroborated by a study). But, Ravan went out of his way to hunt them.
Another one was Charger of Pench (father of the famous Mataram). Apparently, he had an appetite for the furry bear. Sloth bears have insanely long claws (longer than tiger’s claws) that they use for digging and as a defence mechanism. One slash would leave a tiger incapacitated which would very well mean death. So, I am guessing they are only a certain number of tigers which view them as prey (mothers protecting cubs not withstanding).
Bear claws don’t work like that. Bear claws are extremely blunt to such an extent that Bears rarely even use claw strikes in a fight unlike Tigers and Lions.
A claw strike from a Sloth Bear is unlikely to cause any serious damage to a Tiger.
Sloth bear claws are long and scimitar-shaped, like those of a sloth (which, funnily enough, is partly why they're called sloth bears). Their primary purpose is to split rocky termite mounds open; however, they are certainly long and strong enough to be able to inflict serious injury.
Quote:BAREILLY: A tiger found dead in a water hole in Dudhwa range of Dudwha National Park on Sunday may have been killed by a sloth bear, suspect Dudwha officials. While no pugmarks of another tiger were found around the water hole, images of a huge sloth bear have been captured by camera traps set 150 metres from the spot. The bear had a few scraches on its face and seemed to be moving about with difficulty.
"The nature of injuries on the neck and head of the tiger suggest they may have been caused during an attack by a sloth bear," said DTR field director Ramesh Pandey. The autopsy report submitted on Monday had said the tiger was killed by a "large carnivore" but did not specifically say it was another tiger.
Though a tiger being attacked by a bear is rare, Panday recalled an incident reported from Tadoba National Park in Maharashtra in 2018 when a male tiger, 'Matkasur', had picked up a fight with a sloth bear near a water hole. The fight was captured on camera by a tourist.
"The video showed the tiger was resting in the water when the sloth bear arrived with its cub. It fought with the bear possibly trying to defend its territory. But Matkasur lost the fight as it struggled to grip the bear's thick fur. Fortunately, the tiger survived," the field director said.
Pandey suspects that in Dudhwa, too, a similar situation arose. But in this case, the tiger was aged as it was over 12 years old. Such tigers are often thrown out of their territory and sometimes reside around water holes due to easy availability of prey. "This tiger may have fought with the sloth bear for dominance over the water hole as in Tadoba. However, this is not the final conclusion. We have also sought pictures captured by camera traps in Dudwha range during tiger census of 2018. This will help us in identifying if any other tiger is in this area.
"A bear is quite a powerful animal and its claws may cause deep wounds on the tiger's body," Pandey said.
Daksh Gangwar of Wildlife Trust of India, who was part of the veterinary team that conducted the autopsy, said, "The injuries were caused by a large powerful animal, possibly a carnivore. Such injuries can also be caused by a sloth bear because it has strong claws and can inflict serious injuries on a tiger."
(Side note: why are people so fixated on "vs" fights between tigers and bears? It feels like this topic has dominated most conversations about tigers on the board, including the "Premier" thread in the Edge of Extinction section.)
Scimitar shaped but not scimitar sharp. Their claws are extremely blunt and have a rounded end unlike felid claws which are sharp and have a pointy end.
Bears rarely even use their claws in a fight which tells those claws have little to no use for the purpose of fighting.
A slash from a Bear’s claws are not going to cause much damage to a Tiger but I doubt a Bear would even think of striking a Tiger with its claws because Bears simply don’t fight like that.
(06-25-2022, 12:22 PM)Roflcopters Wrote: I can’t believe this is even a debate, it’s always some bear fan in the mix that thinks these bears are some invincible creatures walking freely in paradise without ever getting touched but reality is far different than what some fanboys like to believe. for starters, sloth bears and tigers generally avoid each other and in a serious encounter between the two. sloth bears are nothing more than a food source for the tigers that specialize in bear killing. Ravan, Kala Pahad male of Pench, Charger (Pench), Wagdoh, Jabbar and countless Kanha males have been observed killing and eating sloth bears and this is just the tip of the iceberg, let’s say i’m reaching. just this month alone, T-120 of Ranthambore and the dominant male of Chuka beach in Pilibhit were both observed killing and feasting on sloth bears. so how rare is this occurrence, who’s dominant over what? pretty one sided debate if i’m being realistic. pardon the tone.
There’s been 1 documented encounter of a Tiger killing a sloth Bear in Kanha that I’m aware of. And of all the male tigers mentioned none of the Bears were male or particularly large except for possibly T-120s. And no one said Tigers don’t hunt or kill Sloth Bears. The debate was over the fanatical claim that a Male Bear is no threat to a Tiger at all and there was no instance of Bears running off male Tigers.
Both claims are obviously false as there are numerous videos and photos of Adult Male Tigers being ran off by smaller female bears and even more videos of adult Tigers of both sexes being ran off by Bears.
This idea that because the Tiger hunts an animal also means that they dominate it is wrong. Lions hunt Cape Buffalo but you can bet a male Cape will dominate a Lion more often than not and the same holds true with a Gaur and Tiger.
Next is @apex titan posted an Amur Tiger study with the mention of Bear appearing more during the spring months. The problem is that if you actually read that study you find out it’s only in regards to scat sample which again doesn’t segregate age/sex/health or how the incident occurs or if the prey was even alive when the predator happened upon it. Scats can also be bias towards larger prey since they stay in the system longer and cluster together over an extended period of time. Meaning larger prey items tend to show up more than smaller ones that are out of the system fast and tougher to track. Also noted in the study is the vulnerability of young during those months which could also contribute to predation bias. Some people like to lump all kills into healthy adults but like with most other dangerous game, a big cat will generally prefer a weaker individual of that species.
At the end of the day anyone who thinks a Tiger is going to easily dominate a Big male Sloth Bear is wrong. Can a Tiger kill one, absolutely but is that going to happen every time? Not a chance, the bear will also defeat the Tiger as well. Tigers being a solitary predator make them quicker to disengage when not fighting for mating rights, which again favor the bolder Bear.
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(06-25-2022, 12:22 PM)Roflcopters Wrote: I can’t believe this is even a debate, it’s always some bear fan in the mix that thinks these bears are some invincible creatures walking freely in paradise without ever getting touched but reality is far different than what some fanboys like to believe. for starters, sloth bears and tigers generally avoid each other and in a serious encounter between the two. sloth bears are nothing more than a food source for the tigers that specialize in bear killing. Ravan, Kala Pahad male of Pench, Charger (Pench), Wagdoh, Jabbar and countless Kanha males have been observed killing and eating sloth bears and this is just the tip of the iceberg, let’s say i’m reaching. just this month alone, T-120 of Ranthambore and the dominant male of Chuka beach in Pilibhit were both observed killing and feasting on sloth bears. so how rare is this occurrence, who’s dominant over what? pretty one sided debate if i’m being realistic. pardon the tone.
I don't think this contradicts anything that Pckts said, to be honest. Some tigers do specialise in killing sloth bears, and are incredibly good at it. Generally speaking though, sloth bears are only a minor component of a tiger's diet, and not because they are too small to be worth bothering with (after all, tigers are opportunistic predators that will hunt monkeys, birds and porcupines, and also love to prey on wild boar, which are roughly the size of a male sloth bear). Sloth bears can be extremely aggressive in their own right, making them a tough prey to take on - especially when they are mothers defending their young. Faced with this aggression, many tigers will simply back off.
(06-25-2022, 02:09 PM)LonePredator Wrote:
(06-25-2022, 12:35 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: Just like there are Gaur specialists amongst tigers, there are certain sloth bear specialists as well. One of the current ones is Ravan 1.0 from Satpura. The forest guards at Satpura said his territory used to be littered with sloth bear fur. Sloth bears are rarely present in high density where tigers are present (this was corroborated by a study). But, Ravan went out of his way to hunt them.
Another one was Charger of Pench (father of the famous Mataram). Apparently, he had an appetite for the furry bear. Sloth bears have insanely long claws (longer than tiger’s claws) that they use for digging and as a defence mechanism. One slash would leave a tiger incapacitated which would very well mean death. So, I am guessing they are only a certain number of tigers which view them as prey (mothers protecting cubs not withstanding).
Bear claws don’t work like that. Bear claws are extremely blunt to such an extent that Bears rarely even use claw strikes in a fight unlike Tigers and Lions.
A claw strike from a Sloth Bear is unlikely to cause any serious damage to a Tiger.
Sloth bear claws are long and scimitar-shaped, like those of a sloth (which, funnily enough, is partly why they're called sloth bears). Their primary purpose is to split rocky termite mounds open; however, they are certainly long and strong enough to be able to inflict serious injury.
Quote:BAREILLY: A tiger found dead in a water hole in Dudhwa range of Dudwha National Park on Sunday may have been killed by a sloth bear, suspect Dudwha officials. While no pugmarks of another tiger were found around the water hole, images of a huge sloth bear have been captured by camera traps set 150 metres from the spot. The bear had a few scraches on its face and seemed to be moving about with difficulty.
"The nature of injuries on the neck and head of the tiger suggest they may have been caused during an attack by a sloth bear," said DTR field director Ramesh Pandey. The autopsy report submitted on Monday had said the tiger was killed by a "large carnivore" but did not specifically say it was another tiger.
Though a tiger being attacked by a bear is rare, Panday recalled an incident reported from Tadoba National Park in Maharashtra in 2018 when a male tiger, 'Matkasur', had picked up a fight with a sloth bear near a water hole. The fight was captured on camera by a tourist.
"The video showed the tiger was resting in the water when the sloth bear arrived with its cub. It fought with the bear possibly trying to defend its territory. But Matkasur lost the fight as it struggled to grip the bear's thick fur. Fortunately, the tiger survived," the field director said.
Pandey suspects that in Dudhwa, too, a similar situation arose. But in this case, the tiger was aged as it was over 12 years old. Such tigers are often thrown out of their territory and sometimes reside around water holes due to easy availability of prey. "This tiger may have fought with the sloth bear for dominance over the water hole as in Tadoba. However, this is not the final conclusion. We have also sought pictures captured by camera traps in Dudwha range during tiger census of 2018. This will help us in identifying if any other tiger is in this area.
"A bear is quite a powerful animal and its claws may cause deep wounds on the tiger's body," Pandey said.
Daksh Gangwar of Wildlife Trust of India, who was part of the veterinary team that conducted the autopsy, said, "The injuries were caused by a large powerful animal, possibly a carnivore. Such injuries can also be caused by a sloth bear because it has strong claws and can inflict serious injuries on a tiger."
(Side note: why are people so fixated on "vs" fights between tigers and bears? It feels like this topic has dominated most conversations about tigers on the board, including the "Premier" thread in the Edge of Extinction section.)
Scimitar shaped but not scimitar sharp. Their claws are extremely blunt and have a rounded end unlike felid claws which are sharp and have a pointy end.
Bears rarely even use their claws in a fight which tells those claws have little to no use for the purpose of fighting.
A slash from a Bear’s claws are not going to cause much damage to a Tiger but I doubt a Bear would even think of striking a Tiger with its claws because Bears simply don’t fight like that.
Their claws are still sharp and definitely cause damage. Hence why the small female was able to turtle up, get to her back and use her claws to get at Matkasurs face and get him to disengage his hold.
I’m not sure if you have dogs but I do, and they’re big, they’ve gashed me pretty good with their claws and those are nothing compared to sloth Bear. Victims of sloth Bear attacks are mutilated from their claws and teeth, you can bet both do serious damage.
06-25-2022, 06:07 PM( This post was last modified: 06-25-2022, 06:17 PM by LonePredator )
(06-25-2022, 05:45 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(06-25-2022, 12:22 PM)Roflcopters Wrote: I can’t believe this is even a debate, it’s always some bear fan in the mix that thinks these bears are some invincible creatures walking freely in paradise without ever getting touched but reality is far different than what some fanboys like to believe. for starters, sloth bears and tigers generally avoid each other and in a serious encounter between the two. sloth bears are nothing more than a food source for the tigers that specialize in bear killing. Ravan, Kala Pahad male of Pench, Charger (Pench), Wagdoh, Jabbar and countless Kanha males have been observed killing and eating sloth bears and this is just the tip of the iceberg, let’s say i’m reaching. just this month alone, T-120 of Ranthambore and the dominant male of Chuka beach in Pilibhit were both observed killing and feasting on sloth bears. so how rare is this occurrence, who’s dominant over what? pretty one sided debate if i’m being realistic. pardon the tone.
There’s been 1 documented encounter of a Tiger killing a sloth Bear in Kanha that I’m aware of. And of all the male tigers mentioned none of the Bears were male or particularly large except for possibly T-120s. And no one said Tigers don’t hunt or kill Sloth Bears. The debate was over the fanatical claim that a Male Bear is no threat to a Tiger at all and there was no instance of Bears running off male Tigers.
Both claims are obviously false as there are numerous videos and photos of Adult Male Tigers being ran off by smaller female bears and even more videos of adult Tigers of both sexes being ran off by Bears.
This idea that because the Tiger hunts an animal also means that they dominate it is wrong. Lions hunt Cape Buffalo but you can bet a male Cape will dominate a Lion more often than not and the same holds true with a Gaur and Tiger.
Next is @apex titan posted an Amur Tiger study with the mention of Bear appearing more during the spring months. The problem is that if you actually read that study you find out it’s only in regards to scat sample which again doesn’t segregate age/sex/health or how the incident occurs or if the prey was even alive when the predator happened upon it. Scats can also be bias towards larger prey since they stay in the system longer and cluster together over an extended period of time. Meaning larger prey items tend to show up more than smaller ones that are out of the system fast and tougher to track. Also noted in the study is the vulnerability of young during those months which could also contribute to predation bias. Some people like to lump all kills into healthy adults but like with most other dangerous game, a big cat will generally prefer a weaker individual of that species.
At the end of the day anyone who thinks a Tiger is going to easily dominate a Big male Sloth Bear is wrong. Can a Tiger kill one, absolutely but is that going to happen every time? Not a chance, the bear will also defeat the Tiger as well. Tigers being a solitary predator make them quicker to disengage when not fighting for mating rights, which again favor the bolder Bear.
Wait, are you saying that Sloth Bears dominate Tigers and you are saying Sloth Bears can defeat Tigers?? And please make it clear what you mean by ‘defeat’ because if we take your logic in count then even Cheetahs can defeat Lions.
And what do you mean by ‘dominate’? This is a clear predator-prey relationship. One animal is the predator and the other is animal is the prey for that predator and you are still saying the prey animal will ‘dominate’ the predator??
The predator is always the dominant one while the prey is subordinate. It’s the simplest possible logic.
If we go by your logic then cougars, wolves or even small cats dominate Black and Brown Bears all the time.
06-25-2022, 06:16 PM( This post was last modified: 06-25-2022, 06:24 PM by LonePredator )
(06-25-2022, 05:51 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(06-25-2022, 05:24 PM)LonePredator Wrote:
(06-25-2022, 05:09 PM)LandSeaLion Wrote:
(06-25-2022, 12:22 PM)Roflcopters Wrote: I can’t believe this is even a debate, it’s always some bear fan in the mix that thinks these bears are some invincible creatures walking freely in paradise without ever getting touched but reality is far different than what some fanboys like to believe. for starters, sloth bears and tigers generally avoid each other and in a serious encounter between the two. sloth bears are nothing more than a food source for the tigers that specialize in bear killing. Ravan, Kala Pahad male of Pench, Charger (Pench), Wagdoh, Jabbar and countless Kanha males have been observed killing and eating sloth bears and this is just the tip of the iceberg, let’s say i’m reaching. just this month alone, T-120 of Ranthambore and the dominant male of Chuka beach in Pilibhit were both observed killing and feasting on sloth bears. so how rare is this occurrence, who’s dominant over what? pretty one sided debate if i’m being realistic. pardon the tone.
I don't think this contradicts anything that Pckts said, to be honest. Some tigers do specialise in killing sloth bears, and are incredibly good at it. Generally speaking though, sloth bears are only a minor component of a tiger's diet, and not because they are too small to be worth bothering with (after all, tigers are opportunistic predators that will hunt monkeys, birds and porcupines, and also love to prey on wild boar, which are roughly the size of a male sloth bear). Sloth bears can be extremely aggressive in their own right, making them a tough prey to take on - especially when they are mothers defending their young. Faced with this aggression, many tigers will simply back off.
(06-25-2022, 02:09 PM)LonePredator Wrote:
(06-25-2022, 12:35 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: Just like there are Gaur specialists amongst tigers, there are certain sloth bear specialists as well. One of the current ones is Ravan 1.0 from Satpura. The forest guards at Satpura said his territory used to be littered with sloth bear fur. Sloth bears are rarely present in high density where tigers are present (this was corroborated by a study). But, Ravan went out of his way to hunt them.
Another one was Charger of Pench (father of the famous Mataram). Apparently, he had an appetite for the furry bear. Sloth bears have insanely long claws (longer than tiger’s claws) that they use for digging and as a defence mechanism. One slash would leave a tiger incapacitated which would very well mean death. So, I am guessing they are only a certain number of tigers which view them as prey (mothers protecting cubs not withstanding).
Bear claws don’t work like that. Bear claws are extremely blunt to such an extent that Bears rarely even use claw strikes in a fight unlike Tigers and Lions.
A claw strike from a Sloth Bear is unlikely to cause any serious damage to a Tiger.
Sloth bear claws are long and scimitar-shaped, like those of a sloth (which, funnily enough, is partly why they're called sloth bears). Their primary purpose is to split rocky termite mounds open; however, they are certainly long and strong enough to be able to inflict serious injury.
Quote:BAREILLY: A tiger found dead in a water hole in Dudhwa range of Dudwha National Park on Sunday may have been killed by a sloth bear, suspect Dudwha officials. While no pugmarks of another tiger were found around the water hole, images of a huge sloth bear have been captured by camera traps set 150 metres from the spot. The bear had a few scraches on its face and seemed to be moving about with difficulty.
"The nature of injuries on the neck and head of the tiger suggest they may have been caused during an attack by a sloth bear," said DTR field director Ramesh Pandey. The autopsy report submitted on Monday had said the tiger was killed by a "large carnivore" but did not specifically say it was another tiger.
Though a tiger being attacked by a bear is rare, Panday recalled an incident reported from Tadoba National Park in Maharashtra in 2018 when a male tiger, 'Matkasur', had picked up a fight with a sloth bear near a water hole. The fight was captured on camera by a tourist.
"The video showed the tiger was resting in the water when the sloth bear arrived with its cub. It fought with the bear possibly trying to defend its territory. But Matkasur lost the fight as it struggled to grip the bear's thick fur. Fortunately, the tiger survived," the field director said.
Pandey suspects that in Dudhwa, too, a similar situation arose. But in this case, the tiger was aged as it was over 12 years old. Such tigers are often thrown out of their territory and sometimes reside around water holes due to easy availability of prey. "This tiger may have fought with the sloth bear for dominance over the water hole as in Tadoba. However, this is not the final conclusion. We have also sought pictures captured by camera traps in Dudwha range during tiger census of 2018. This will help us in identifying if any other tiger is in this area.
"A bear is quite a powerful animal and its claws may cause deep wounds on the tiger's body," Pandey said.
Daksh Gangwar of Wildlife Trust of India, who was part of the veterinary team that conducted the autopsy, said, "The injuries were caused by a large powerful animal, possibly a carnivore. Such injuries can also be caused by a sloth bear because it has strong claws and can inflict serious injuries on a tiger."
(Side note: why are people so fixated on "vs" fights between tigers and bears? It feels like this topic has dominated most conversations about tigers on the board, including the "Premier" thread in the Edge of Extinction section.)
Scimitar shaped but not scimitar sharp. Their claws are extremely blunt and have a rounded end unlike felid claws which are sharp and have a pointy end.
Bears rarely even use their claws in a fight which tells those claws have little to no use for the purpose of fighting.
A slash from a Bear’s claws are not going to cause much damage to a Tiger but I doubt a Bear would even think of striking a Tiger with its claws because Bears simply don’t fight like that.
Their claws are still sharp and definitely cause damage. Hence why the small female was able to turtle up, get to her back and use her claws to get at Matkasurs face and get him to disengage his hold.
I’m not sure if you have dogs but I do, and they’re big, they’ve gashed me pretty good with their claws and those are nothing compared to sloth Bear. Victims of sloth Bear attacks are mutilated from their claws and teeth, you can bet both do serious damage.
What claw strikes?? I saw the fight and the Bear didn’t use any claw strikes. Why don’t you show a video of the Bear using claw strikes??
The Bear did nothing to Matkasur. Matkasur disengaged from the fight on his own. Stop saying the Bear ‘defeated’ him.
Matkasur already had the Bear by the nape and the Tiger had put the Bear in the killing position 3 times during the fight but chose not to kill it for some reason.
There’s nothing the Bear did to ‘make’ Matkasur disengage. And Tiger coat is very different from human skin, it’s not as fragile even with less fur.
Claw strikes from a Bear would do little to no damage to a Tiger. Can you even show me where the Bear used its claws to ‘get at’ Matkasur’s face? I saw the fight but I didn’t notice anything like that so show me what you’re talking about.
And of all the Bear fights I’ve seen, I’ve never seen Bears fighting with paw strikes like Lions and Tigers do. Bears don’t even use paw strikes in the first place.
(06-25-2022, 12:22 PM)Roflcopters Wrote: I can’t believe this is even a debate, it’s always some bear fan in the mix that thinks these bears are some invincible creatures walking freely in paradise without ever getting touched but reality is far different than what some fanboys like to believe. for starters, sloth bears and tigers generally avoid each other and in a serious encounter between the two. sloth bears are nothing more than a food source for the tigers that specialize in bear killing. Ravan, Kala Pahad male of Pench, Charger (Pench), Wagdoh, Jabbar and countless Kanha males have been observed killing and eating sloth bears and this is just the tip of the iceberg, let’s say i’m reaching. just this month alone, T-120 of Ranthambore and the dominant male of Chuka beach in Pilibhit were both observed killing and feasting on sloth bears. so how rare is this occurrence, who’s dominant over what? pretty one sided debate if i’m being realistic. pardon the tone.
There’s been 1 documented encounter of a Tiger killing a sloth Bear in Kanha that I’m aware of. And of all the male tigers mentioned none of the Bears were male or particularly large except for possibly T-120s. And no one said Tigers don’t hunt or kill Sloth Bears. The debate was over the fanatical claim that a Male Bear is no threat to a Tiger at all and there was no instance of Bears running off male Tigers.
Both claims are obviously false as there are numerous videos and photos of Adult Male Tigers being ran off by smaller female bears and even more videos of adult Tigers of both sexes being ran off by Bears.
This idea that because the Tiger hunts an animal also means that they dominate it is wrong. Lions hunt Cape Buffalo but you can bet a male Cape will dominate a Lion more often than not and the same holds true with a Gaur and Tiger.
Next is @apex titan posted an Amur Tiger study with the mention of Bear appearing more during the spring months. The problem is that if you actually read that study you find out it’s only in regards to scat sample which again doesn’t segregate age/sex/health or how the incident occurs or if the prey was even alive when the predator happened upon it. Scats can also be bias towards larger prey since they stay in the system longer and cluster together over an extended period of time. Meaning larger prey items tend to show up more than smaller ones that are out of the system fast and tougher to track. Also noted in the study is the vulnerability of young during those months which could also contribute to predation bias. Some people like to lump all kills into healthy adults but like with most other dangerous game, a big cat will generally prefer a weaker individual of that species.
At the end of the day anyone who thinks a Tiger is going to easily dominate a Big male Sloth Bear is wrong. Can a Tiger kill one, absolutely but is that going to happen every time? Not a chance, the bear will also defeat the Tiger as well. Tigers being a solitary predator make them quicker to disengage when not fighting for mating rights, which again favor the bolder Bear.
Wait, are you saying that Sloth Bears dominate Tigers and you are saying Sloth Bears can defeat Tigers?? And please make it clear what you mean by ‘defeat’ because if we take your logic in count then even Cheetahs can defeat Lions.
And what do you mean by ‘dominate’? This is a clear predator-prey relationship. One animal is the predator and the other is animal is the prey for that predator and you are still saying the prey animal will ‘dominate’ the predator??
The predator is always the dominant one while the prey is subordinate. It’s the simplest possible logic.
If we go by your logic then cougars, wolves or even small cats dominate Black and Brown Bears all the time.
Are you comparing a Cheetah showing unusual behavior and running off an unsuspecting Lioness without actual conflict to a Sloth Bear actually engaging in a fight for its life for 20 minutes and successfully running off a Male Tiger?
There is a huge difference between display and engagement.
(06-25-2022, 12:22 PM)Roflcopters Wrote: I can’t believe this is even a debate, it’s always some bear fan in the mix that thinks these bears are some invincible creatures walking freely in paradise without ever getting touched but reality is far different than what some fanboys like to believe. for starters, sloth bears and tigers generally avoid each other and in a serious encounter between the two. sloth bears are nothing more than a food source for the tigers that specialize in bear killing. Ravan, Kala Pahad male of Pench, Charger (Pench), Wagdoh, Jabbar and countless Kanha males have been observed killing and eating sloth bears and this is just the tip of the iceberg, let’s say i’m reaching. just this month alone, T-120 of Ranthambore and the dominant male of Chuka beach in Pilibhit were both observed killing and feasting on sloth bears. so how rare is this occurrence, who’s dominant over what? pretty one sided debate if i’m being realistic. pardon the tone.
I don't think this contradicts anything that Pckts said, to be honest. Some tigers do specialise in killing sloth bears, and are incredibly good at it. Generally speaking though, sloth bears are only a minor component of a tiger's diet, and not because they are too small to be worth bothering with (after all, tigers are opportunistic predators that will hunt monkeys, birds and porcupines, and also love to prey on wild boar, which are roughly the size of a male sloth bear). Sloth bears can be extremely aggressive in their own right, making them a tough prey to take on - especially when they are mothers defending their young. Faced with this aggression, many tigers will simply back off.
(06-25-2022, 02:09 PM)LonePredator Wrote:
(06-25-2022, 12:35 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: Just like there are Gaur specialists amongst tigers, there are certain sloth bear specialists as well. One of the current ones is Ravan 1.0 from Satpura. The forest guards at Satpura said his territory used to be littered with sloth bear fur. Sloth bears are rarely present in high density where tigers are present (this was corroborated by a study). But, Ravan went out of his way to hunt them.
Another one was Charger of Pench (father of the famous Mataram). Apparently, he had an appetite for the furry bear. Sloth bears have insanely long claws (longer than tiger’s claws) that they use for digging and as a defence mechanism. One slash would leave a tiger incapacitated which would very well mean death. So, I am guessing they are only a certain number of tigers which view them as prey (mothers protecting cubs not withstanding).
Bear claws don’t work like that. Bear claws are extremely blunt to such an extent that Bears rarely even use claw strikes in a fight unlike Tigers and Lions.
A claw strike from a Sloth Bear is unlikely to cause any serious damage to a Tiger.
Sloth bear claws are long and scimitar-shaped, like those of a sloth (which, funnily enough, is partly why they're called sloth bears). Their primary purpose is to split rocky termite mounds open; however, they are certainly long and strong enough to be able to inflict serious injury.
Quote:BAREILLY: A tiger found dead in a water hole in Dudhwa range of Dudwha National Park on Sunday may have been killed by a sloth bear, suspect Dudwha officials. While no pugmarks of another tiger were found around the water hole, images of a huge sloth bear have been captured by camera traps set 150 metres from the spot. The bear had a few scraches on its face and seemed to be moving about with difficulty.
"The nature of injuries on the neck and head of the tiger suggest they may have been caused during an attack by a sloth bear," said DTR field director Ramesh Pandey. The autopsy report submitted on Monday had said the tiger was killed by a "large carnivore" but did not specifically say it was another tiger.
Though a tiger being attacked by a bear is rare, Panday recalled an incident reported from Tadoba National Park in Maharashtra in 2018 when a male tiger, 'Matkasur', had picked up a fight with a sloth bear near a water hole. The fight was captured on camera by a tourist.
"The video showed the tiger was resting in the water when the sloth bear arrived with its cub. It fought with the bear possibly trying to defend its territory. But Matkasur lost the fight as it struggled to grip the bear's thick fur. Fortunately, the tiger survived," the field director said.
Pandey suspects that in Dudhwa, too, a similar situation arose. But in this case, the tiger was aged as it was over 12 years old. Such tigers are often thrown out of their territory and sometimes reside around water holes due to easy availability of prey. "This tiger may have fought with the sloth bear for dominance over the water hole as in Tadoba. However, this is not the final conclusion. We have also sought pictures captured by camera traps in Dudwha range during tiger census of 2018. This will help us in identifying if any other tiger is in this area.
"A bear is quite a powerful animal and its claws may cause deep wounds on the tiger's body," Pandey said.
Daksh Gangwar of Wildlife Trust of India, who was part of the veterinary team that conducted the autopsy, said, "The injuries were caused by a large powerful animal, possibly a carnivore. Such injuries can also be caused by a sloth bear because it has strong claws and can inflict serious injuries on a tiger."
(Side note: why are people so fixated on "vs" fights between tigers and bears? It feels like this topic has dominated most conversations about tigers on the board, including the "Premier" thread in the Edge of Extinction section.)
Scimitar shaped but not scimitar sharp. Their claws are extremely blunt and have a rounded end unlike felid claws which are sharp and have a pointy end.
Bears rarely even use their claws in a fight which tells those claws have little to no use for the purpose of fighting.
A slash from a Bear’s claws are not going to cause much damage to a Tiger but I doubt a Bear would even think of striking a Tiger with its claws because Bears simply don’t fight like that.
Their claws are still sharp and definitely cause damage. Hence why the small female was able to turtle up, get to her back and use her claws to get at Matkasurs face and get him to disengage his hold.
I’m not sure if you have dogs but I do, and they’re big, they’ve gashed me pretty good with their claws and those are nothing compared to sloth Bear. Victims of sloth Bear attacks are mutilated from their claws and teeth, you can bet both do serious damage.
What claw strikes?? I saw the fight and the Bear didn’t use any claw strikes. Why don’t you show a video of the Bear using claw strikes??
The Bear did nothing to Matkasur. Matkasur disengaged from the fight on his own. Stop saying the Bear ‘defeated’ him.
Matkasur already had the Bear by the nape and the Tiger had put the Bear in the killing position 3 times during the fight but chose not to kill it for some reason.
There’s nothing the Bear did to ‘make’ Matkasur disengage. And Tiger coat is very different from human skin, it’s not as fragile even with less fur.
Claw strikes from a Bear would do little to no damage to a Tiger. Can you even show me where the Bear used its claws to ‘get at’ Matkasur’s face? I saw the fight but I didn’t notice anything like that so show me what you’re talking about.
And of all the Bear fights I’ve seen, I’ve never seen Bears fighting with paw strikes like Lions and Tigers do. Bears don’t even use paw strikes in the first place.
Have you not seen the video?
See the bear turtle up and use her hind claws to rake the Matkasurs face to get him to release, she does this maneuver numerous times throughout the grappling. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xca4uX2N3Uk
Bears don’t swipe with the speed a big cat does, that’s not how they prefer to fight, they grapple and rake with their claws. Still effective and deadly in their own way.
(06-25-2022, 12:22 PM)Roflcopters Wrote: I can’t believe this is even a debate, it’s always some bear fan in the mix that thinks these bears are some invincible creatures walking freely in paradise without ever getting touched but reality is far different than what some fanboys like to believe. for starters, sloth bears and tigers generally avoid each other and in a serious encounter between the two. sloth bears are nothing more than a food source for the tigers that specialize in bear killing. Ravan, Kala Pahad male of Pench, Charger (Pench), Wagdoh, Jabbar and countless Kanha males have been observed killing and eating sloth bears and this is just the tip of the iceberg, let’s say i’m reaching. just this month alone, T-120 of Ranthambore and the dominant male of Chuka beach in Pilibhit were both observed killing and feasting on sloth bears. so how rare is this occurrence, who’s dominant over what? pretty one sided debate if i’m being realistic. pardon the tone.
There’s been 1 documented encounter of a Tiger killing a sloth Bear in Kanha that I’m aware of. And of all the male tigers mentioned none of the Bears were male or particularly large except for possibly T-120s. And no one said Tigers don’t hunt or kill Sloth Bears. The debate was over the fanatical claim that a Male Bear is no threat to a Tiger at all and there was no instance of Bears running off male Tigers.
Both claims are obviously false as there are numerous videos and photos of Adult Male Tigers being ran off by smaller female bears and even more videos of adult Tigers of both sexes being ran off by Bears.
This idea that because the Tiger hunts an animal also means that they dominate it is wrong. Lions hunt Cape Buffalo but you can bet a male Cape will dominate a Lion more often than not and the same holds true with a Gaur and Tiger.
Next is @apex titan posted an Amur Tiger study with the mention of Bear appearing more during the spring months. The problem is that if you actually read that study you find out it’s only in regards to scat sample which again doesn’t segregate age/sex/health or how the incident occurs or if the prey was even alive when the predator happened upon it. Scats can also be bias towards larger prey since they stay in the system longer and cluster together over an extended period of time. Meaning larger prey items tend to show up more than smaller ones that are out of the system fast and tougher to track. Also noted in the study is the vulnerability of young during those months which could also contribute to predation bias. Some people like to lump all kills into healthy adults but like with most other dangerous game, a big cat will generally prefer a weaker individual of that species.
At the end of the day anyone who thinks a Tiger is going to easily dominate a Big male Sloth Bear is wrong. Can a Tiger kill one, absolutely but is that going to happen every time? Not a chance, the bear will also defeat the Tiger as well. Tigers being a solitary predator make them quicker to disengage when not fighting for mating rights, which again favor the bolder Bear.
Wait, are you saying that Sloth Bears dominate Tigers and you are saying Sloth Bears can defeat Tigers?? And please make it clear what you mean by ‘defeat’ because if we take your logic in count then even Cheetahs can defeat Lions.
And what do you mean by ‘dominate’? This is a clear predator-prey relationship. One animal is the predator and the other is animal is the prey for that predator and you are still saying the prey animal will ‘dominate’ the predator??
The predator is always the dominant one while the prey is subordinate. It’s the simplest possible logic.
If we go by your logic then cougars, wolves or even small cats dominate Black and Brown Bears all the time.
Are you comparing a Cheetah showing unusual behavior and running off an unsuspecting Lioness without actual conflict to a Sloth Bear actually engaging in a fight for its life for 20 minutes and successfully running off a Male Tiger?
There is a huge difference between display and engagement.
The Bear didn't even land a single hit or bite on Matkasur so how's it any different??
It’s this sensationalism that should be left behind.
06-25-2022, 07:01 PM( This post was last modified: 06-25-2022, 07:04 PM by Pckts )
(06-25-2022, 06:57 PM)LonePredator Wrote:
(06-25-2022, 06:51 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(06-25-2022, 06:07 PM)LonePredator Wrote:
(06-25-2022, 05:45 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(06-25-2022, 12:22 PM)Roflcopters Wrote: I can’t believe this is even a debate, it’s always some bear fan in the mix that thinks these bears are some invincible creatures walking freely in paradise without ever getting touched but reality is far different than what some fanboys like to believe. for starters, sloth bears and tigers generally avoid each other and in a serious encounter between the two. sloth bears are nothing more than a food source for the tigers that specialize in bear killing. Ravan, Kala Pahad male of Pench, Charger (Pench), Wagdoh, Jabbar and countless Kanha males have been observed killing and eating sloth bears and this is just the tip of the iceberg, let’s say i’m reaching. just this month alone, T-120 of Ranthambore and the dominant male of Chuka beach in Pilibhit were both observed killing and feasting on sloth bears. so how rare is this occurrence, who’s dominant over what? pretty one sided debate if i’m being realistic. pardon the tone.
There’s been 1 documented encounter of a Tiger killing a sloth Bear in Kanha that I’m aware of. And of all the male tigers mentioned none of the Bears were male or particularly large except for possibly T-120s. And no one said Tigers don’t hunt or kill Sloth Bears. The debate was over the fanatical claim that a Male Bear is no threat to a Tiger at all and there was no instance of Bears running off male Tigers.
Both claims are obviously false as there are numerous videos and photos of Adult Male Tigers being ran off by smaller female bears and even more videos of adult Tigers of both sexes being ran off by Bears.
This idea that because the Tiger hunts an animal also means that they dominate it is wrong. Lions hunt Cape Buffalo but you can bet a male Cape will dominate a Lion more often than not and the same holds true with a Gaur and Tiger.
Next is @apex titan posted an Amur Tiger study with the mention of Bear appearing more during the spring months. The problem is that if you actually read that study you find out it’s only in regards to scat sample which again doesn’t segregate age/sex/health or how the incident occurs or if the prey was even alive when the predator happened upon it. Scats can also be bias towards larger prey since they stay in the system longer and cluster together over an extended period of time. Meaning larger prey items tend to show up more than smaller ones that are out of the system fast and tougher to track. Also noted in the study is the vulnerability of young during those months which could also contribute to predation bias. Some people like to lump all kills into healthy adults but like with most other dangerous game, a big cat will generally prefer a weaker individual of that species.
At the end of the day anyone who thinks a Tiger is going to easily dominate a Big male Sloth Bear is wrong. Can a Tiger kill one, absolutely but is that going to happen every time? Not a chance, the bear will also defeat the Tiger as well. Tigers being a solitary predator make them quicker to disengage when not fighting for mating rights, which again favor the bolder Bear.
Wait, are you saying that Sloth Bears dominate Tigers and you are saying Sloth Bears can defeat Tigers?? And please make it clear what you mean by ‘defeat’ because if we take your logic in count then even Cheetahs can defeat Lions.
And what do you mean by ‘dominate’? This is a clear predator-prey relationship. One animal is the predator and the other is animal is the prey for that predator and you are still saying the prey animal will ‘dominate’ the predator??
The predator is always the dominant one while the prey is subordinate. It’s the simplest possible logic.
If we go by your logic then cougars, wolves or even small cats dominate Black and Brown Bears all the time.
Are you comparing a Cheetah showing unusual behavior and running off an unsuspecting Lioness without actual conflict to a Sloth Bear actually engaging in a fight for its life for 20 minutes and successfully running off a Male Tiger?
There is a huge difference between display and engagement.
The Bear didn't even land a single hit or bite on Matkasur so how's it any different??
What are you talking about?
*This image is copyright of its original author
And you don’t think a Bear fighting with a Tiger, taking numerous throat and neck bites while grappling and then running the Tiger off is different than a Cheetah doing a stomp but never engaging?
(06-25-2022, 12:22 PM)Roflcopters Wrote: I can’t believe this is even a debate, it’s always some bear fan in the mix that thinks these bears are some invincible creatures walking freely in paradise without ever getting touched but reality is far different than what some fanboys like to believe. for starters, sloth bears and tigers generally avoid each other and in a serious encounter between the two. sloth bears are nothing more than a food source for the tigers that specialize in bear killing. Ravan, Kala Pahad male of Pench, Charger (Pench), Wagdoh, Jabbar and countless Kanha males have been observed killing and eating sloth bears and this is just the tip of the iceberg, let’s say i’m reaching. just this month alone, T-120 of Ranthambore and the dominant male of Chuka beach in Pilibhit were both observed killing and feasting on sloth bears. so how rare is this occurrence, who’s dominant over what? pretty one sided debate if i’m being realistic. pardon the tone.
I don't think this contradicts anything that Pckts said, to be honest. Some tigers do specialise in killing sloth bears, and are incredibly good at it. Generally speaking though, sloth bears are only a minor component of a tiger's diet, and not because they are too small to be worth bothering with (after all, tigers are opportunistic predators that will hunt monkeys, birds and porcupines, and also love to prey on wild boar, which are roughly the size of a male sloth bear). Sloth bears can be extremely aggressive in their own right, making them a tough prey to take on - especially when they are mothers defending their young. Faced with this aggression, many tigers will simply back off.
(06-25-2022, 02:09 PM)LonePredator Wrote:
(06-25-2022, 12:35 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: Just like there are Gaur specialists amongst tigers, there are certain sloth bear specialists as well. One of the current ones is Ravan 1.0 from Satpura. The forest guards at Satpura said his territory used to be littered with sloth bear fur. Sloth bears are rarely present in high density where tigers are present (this was corroborated by a study). But, Ravan went out of his way to hunt them.
Another one was Charger of Pench (father of the famous Mataram). Apparently, he had an appetite for the furry bear. Sloth bears have insanely long claws (longer than tiger’s claws) that they use for digging and as a defence mechanism. One slash would leave a tiger incapacitated which would very well mean death. So, I am guessing they are only a certain number of tigers which view them as prey (mothers protecting cubs not withstanding).
Bear claws don’t work like that. Bear claws are extremely blunt to such an extent that Bears rarely even use claw strikes in a fight unlike Tigers and Lions.
A claw strike from a Sloth Bear is unlikely to cause any serious damage to a Tiger.
Sloth bear claws are long and scimitar-shaped, like those of a sloth (which, funnily enough, is partly why they're called sloth bears). Their primary purpose is to split rocky termite mounds open; however, they are certainly long and strong enough to be able to inflict serious injury.
Quote:BAREILLY: A tiger found dead in a water hole in Dudhwa range of Dudwha National Park on Sunday may have been killed by a sloth bear, suspect Dudwha officials. While no pugmarks of another tiger were found around the water hole, images of a huge sloth bear have been captured by camera traps set 150 metres from the spot. The bear had a few scraches on its face and seemed to be moving about with difficulty.
"The nature of injuries on the neck and head of the tiger suggest they may have been caused during an attack by a sloth bear," said DTR field director Ramesh Pandey. The autopsy report submitted on Monday had said the tiger was killed by a "large carnivore" but did not specifically say it was another tiger.
Though a tiger being attacked by a bear is rare, Panday recalled an incident reported from Tadoba National Park in Maharashtra in 2018 when a male tiger, 'Matkasur', had picked up a fight with a sloth bear near a water hole. The fight was captured on camera by a tourist.
"The video showed the tiger was resting in the water when the sloth bear arrived with its cub. It fought with the bear possibly trying to defend its territory. But Matkasur lost the fight as it struggled to grip the bear's thick fur. Fortunately, the tiger survived," the field director said.
Pandey suspects that in Dudhwa, too, a similar situation arose. But in this case, the tiger was aged as it was over 12 years old. Such tigers are often thrown out of their territory and sometimes reside around water holes due to easy availability of prey. "This tiger may have fought with the sloth bear for dominance over the water hole as in Tadoba. However, this is not the final conclusion. We have also sought pictures captured by camera traps in Dudwha range during tiger census of 2018. This will help us in identifying if any other tiger is in this area.
"A bear is quite a powerful animal and its claws may cause deep wounds on the tiger's body," Pandey said.
Daksh Gangwar of Wildlife Trust of India, who was part of the veterinary team that conducted the autopsy, said, "The injuries were caused by a large powerful animal, possibly a carnivore. Such injuries can also be caused by a sloth bear because it has strong claws and can inflict serious injuries on a tiger."
(Side note: why are people so fixated on "vs" fights between tigers and bears? It feels like this topic has dominated most conversations about tigers on the board, including the "Premier" thread in the Edge of Extinction section.)
Scimitar shaped but not scimitar sharp. Their claws are extremely blunt and have a rounded end unlike felid claws which are sharp and have a pointy end.
Bears rarely even use their claws in a fight which tells those claws have little to no use for the purpose of fighting.
A slash from a Bear’s claws are not going to cause much damage to a Tiger but I doubt a Bear would even think of striking a Tiger with its claws because Bears simply don’t fight like that.
Their claws are still sharp and definitely cause damage. Hence why the small female was able to turtle up, get to her back and use her claws to get at Matkasurs face and get him to disengage his hold.
I’m not sure if you have dogs but I do, and they’re big, they’ve gashed me pretty good with their claws and those are nothing compared to sloth Bear. Victims of sloth Bear attacks are mutilated from their claws and teeth, you can bet both do serious damage.
What claw strikes?? I saw the fight and the Bear didn’t use any claw strikes. Why don’t you show a video of the Bear using claw strikes??
The Bear did nothing to Matkasur. Matkasur disengaged from the fight on his own. Stop saying the Bear ‘defeated’ him.
Matkasur already had the Bear by the nape and the Tiger had put the Bear in the killing position 3 times during the fight but chose not to kill it for some reason.
There’s nothing the Bear did to ‘make’ Matkasur disengage. And Tiger coat is very different from human skin, it’s not as fragile even with less fur.
Claw strikes from a Bear would do little to no damage to a Tiger. Can you even show me where the Bear used its claws to ‘get at’ Matkasur’s face? I saw the fight but I didn’t notice anything like that so show me what you’re talking about.
And of all the Bear fights I’ve seen, I’ve never seen Bears fighting with paw strikes like Lions and Tigers do. Bears don’t even use paw strikes in the first place.
Have you not seen the video?
See the bear turtle up and use her hind claws to rake the Matkasurs face to get him to release, she does this maneuver numerous times throughout the grappling. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xca4uX2N3Uk
Bears don’t swipe with the speed a big cat does, that’s not how they prefer to fight, they grapple and rake with their claws. Still effective and deadly in their own way.
(06-25-2022, 12:22 PM)Roflcopters Wrote: I can’t believe this is even a debate, it’s always some bear fan in the mix that thinks these bears are some invincible creatures walking freely in paradise without ever getting touched but reality is far different than what some fanboys like to believe. for starters, sloth bears and tigers generally avoid each other and in a serious encounter between the two. sloth bears are nothing more than a food source for the tigers that specialize in bear killing. Ravan, Kala Pahad male of Pench, Charger (Pench), Wagdoh, Jabbar and countless Kanha males have been observed killing and eating sloth bears and this is just the tip of the iceberg, let’s say i’m reaching. just this month alone, T-120 of Ranthambore and the dominant male of Chuka beach in Pilibhit were both observed killing and feasting on sloth bears. so how rare is this occurrence, who’s dominant over what? pretty one sided debate if i’m being realistic. pardon the tone.
I don't think this contradicts anything that Pckts said, to be honest. Some tigers do specialise in killing sloth bears, and are incredibly good at it. Generally speaking though, sloth bears are only a minor component of a tiger's diet, and not because they are too small to be worth bothering with (after all, tigers are opportunistic predators that will hunt monkeys, birds and porcupines, and also love to prey on wild boar, which are roughly the size of a male sloth bear). Sloth bears can be extremely aggressive in their own right, making them a tough prey to take on - especially when they are mothers defending their young. Faced with this aggression, many tigers will simply back off.
(06-25-2022, 02:09 PM)LonePredator Wrote:
(06-25-2022, 12:35 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: Just like there are Gaur specialists amongst tigers, there are certain sloth bear specialists as well. One of the current ones is Ravan 1.0 from Satpura. The forest guards at Satpura said his territory used to be littered with sloth bear fur. Sloth bears are rarely present in high density where tigers are present (this was corroborated by a study). But, Ravan went out of his way to hunt them.
Another one was Charger of Pench (father of the famous Mataram). Apparently, he had an appetite for the furry bear. Sloth bears have insanely long claws (longer than tiger’s claws) that they use for digging and as a defence mechanism. One slash would leave a tiger incapacitated which would very well mean death. So, I am guessing they are only a certain number of tigers which view them as prey (mothers protecting cubs not withstanding).
Bear claws don’t work like that. Bear claws are extremely blunt to such an extent that Bears rarely even use claw strikes in a fight unlike Tigers and Lions.
A claw strike from a Sloth Bear is unlikely to cause any serious damage to a Tiger.
Sloth bear claws are long and scimitar-shaped, like those of a sloth (which, funnily enough, is partly why they're called sloth bears). Their primary purpose is to split rocky termite mounds open; however, they are certainly long and strong enough to be able to inflict serious injury.
Quote:BAREILLY: A tiger found dead in a water hole in Dudhwa range of Dudwha National Park on Sunday may have been killed by a sloth bear, suspect Dudwha officials. While no pugmarks of another tiger were found around the water hole, images of a huge sloth bear have been captured by camera traps set 150 metres from the spot. The bear had a few scraches on its face and seemed to be moving about with difficulty.
"The nature of injuries on the neck and head of the tiger suggest they may have been caused during an attack by a sloth bear," said DTR field director Ramesh Pandey. The autopsy report submitted on Monday had said the tiger was killed by a "large carnivore" but did not specifically say it was another tiger.
Though a tiger being attacked by a bear is rare, Panday recalled an incident reported from Tadoba National Park in Maharashtra in 2018 when a male tiger, 'Matkasur', had picked up a fight with a sloth bear near a water hole. The fight was captured on camera by a tourist.
"The video showed the tiger was resting in the water when the sloth bear arrived with its cub. It fought with the bear possibly trying to defend its territory. But Matkasur lost the fight as it struggled to grip the bear's thick fur. Fortunately, the tiger survived," the field director said.
Pandey suspects that in Dudhwa, too, a similar situation arose. But in this case, the tiger was aged as it was over 12 years old. Such tigers are often thrown out of their territory and sometimes reside around water holes due to easy availability of prey. "This tiger may have fought with the sloth bear for dominance over the water hole as in Tadoba. However, this is not the final conclusion. We have also sought pictures captured by camera traps in Dudwha range during tiger census of 2018. This will help us in identifying if any other tiger is in this area.
"A bear is quite a powerful animal and its claws may cause deep wounds on the tiger's body," Pandey said.
Daksh Gangwar of Wildlife Trust of India, who was part of the veterinary team that conducted the autopsy, said, "The injuries were caused by a large powerful animal, possibly a carnivore. Such injuries can also be caused by a sloth bear because it has strong claws and can inflict serious injuries on a tiger."
(Side note: why are people so fixated on "vs" fights between tigers and bears? It feels like this topic has dominated most conversations about tigers on the board, including the "Premier" thread in the Edge of Extinction section.)
Scimitar shaped but not scimitar sharp. Their claws are extremely blunt and have a rounded end unlike felid claws which are sharp and have a pointy end.
Bears rarely even use their claws in a fight which tells those claws have little to no use for the purpose of fighting.
A slash from a Bear’s claws are not going to cause much damage to a Tiger but I doubt a Bear would even think of striking a Tiger with its claws because Bears simply don’t fight like that.
Their claws are still sharp and definitely cause damage. Hence why the small female was able to turtle up, get to her back and use her claws to get at Matkasurs face and get him to disengage his hold.
I’m not sure if you have dogs but I do, and they’re big, they’ve gashed me pretty good with their claws and those are nothing compared to sloth Bear. Victims of sloth Bear attacks are mutilated from their claws and teeth, you can bet both do serious damage.
What claw strikes?? I saw the fight and the Bear didn’t use any claw strikes. Why don’t you show a video of the Bear using claw strikes??
The Bear did nothing to Matkasur. Matkasur disengaged from the fight on his own. Stop saying the Bear ‘defeated’ him.
Matkasur already had the Bear by the nape and the Tiger had put the Bear in the killing position 3 times during the fight but chose not to kill it for some reason.
There’s nothing the Bear did to ‘make’ Matkasur disengage. And Tiger coat is very different from human skin, it’s not as fragile even with less fur.
Claw strikes from a Bear would do little to no damage to a Tiger. Can you even show me where the Bear used its claws to ‘get at’ Matkasur’s face? I saw the fight but I didn’t notice anything like that so show me what you’re talking about.
And of all the Bear fights I’ve seen, I’ve never seen Bears fighting with paw strikes like Lions and Tigers do. Bears don’t even use paw strikes in the first place.
Have you not seen the video?
See the bear turtle up and use her hind claws to rake the Matkasurs face to get him to release, she does this maneuver numerous times throughout the grappling. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xca4uX2N3Uk
Bears don’t swipe with the speed a big cat does, that’s not how they prefer to fight, they grapple and rake with their claws. Still effective and deadly in their own way.
