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Size comparisons
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My purpose here is to estimate the length and weight of the crocodile killed by the Tigress Machli. As for the length of the crocodile, I have estimated close to 12.5 feet.
 *This image is copyright of its original author In the image above, we can see that Machli is about 12.5 units in head-body length. Assuming that Machli is of average length, then she would be 166cm in head-body and that would mean 1 unit or block here is about 13.28cm. Now, we can see that the crocodile is about 12.3 units in head-body length but we can see that the crocodile is curved. If we straighten it out, then it should occupy around 2 units more which means that the crocodile is 14.3 x 13.28 = 189cm in head body and assuming a tail of around the same length would mean a total length of about 370-380cm. Therefore, I am estimating that this crocodile is about 370-380cm in total length. Here is a visual comparison below. (1 unit=20cm)  *This image is copyright of its original author
(04-25-2022, 10:34 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:(04-25-2022, 10:23 PM)LonePredator Wrote: @GuateGojira could you help me out with this? I have only weights and measurements of two mugger specimens which is not enough to find a relation between length and weight of muggers. Do you know which species he is talking about here? Because from what I have seen, different species tend to have different weights at same lengths. 
@LonePredator, not sure about that formula of yours. From what I recall of R Whittaker, he said something like “if a 5 metre saltwater croc weighs x kilograms, then a 6 metre saltwater crocodile would weigh 2x kilograms”. But, mugger crocodiles are the most alligator-like amongst all crocodilians, so even this theory may not be applicable.
Plus, Machli killed 3 other mugger crocodiles that very summer as per accounts of Ranthambore officials. This may not have been the largest one she took down. Not to mention she was very well “above average” size for a tigress, especially as she was very much in her prime at this time aged 6-7. (04-25-2022, 10:50 PM)LonePredator Wrote: My purpose here is to estimate the length and weight of the crocodile killed by the Tigress Machli. As for the length of the crocodile, I have estimated approximately 12.5 feet. I made a comparison in my notebook about that, and my conclution was that if the tigress was an average sized one (166 cm) the crocodile probably measured 350 cm in total length, and if the tigerss was of the largest size (184 cm) the crocodile probably measured 390 cm. In any case, the specimen could not surpass the 13 ft, and more in the line of around 12 ft, give or take. (04-25-2022, 10:58 PM)Ashutosh Wrote: @LonePredator, not sure about that formula of yours. From what I recall of R Whittaker, he said something like “if a 5 metre saltwater croc weighs x kilograms, then a 6 metre saltwater crocodile would weigh 2x kilograms”. But, mugger crocodiles are the most alligator-like amongst all crocodilians, so even this theory may not be applicable. But did he give any formula? Can you please give me the formula he used? You are saying that if 5m is x kg then 6m is 2x kg. But what is the formula used to get this result? Are you suggesting that when length is increased by 1.2 times (6/5=1.2) then weight is increased by 2 times? But that is impossible because a linear increase in length will NOT result in a linear increase in weight. A linear increase in length would definitely result in an exponential increase in weight. So according to the formula I am mentioning, a 6 metre crocodile should weight around 1.8 times heavier than a crocodile of 5 metres. This is the source which I used by the way https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00360-012-0732-1
Except, it isn’t linear. A saltwater crocodile measuring 4 metres weighs x kilograms. At 5 metres, it weighs 2x while at 6 metres it weighs 4x. It is geometric.
(04-25-2022, 11:02 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:(04-25-2022, 10:50 PM)LonePredator Wrote: My purpose here is to estimate the length and weight of the crocodile killed by the Tigress Machli. As for the length of the crocodile, I have estimated approximately 12.5 feet. I agree. 13ft is impossible for the crocodile. It is also very difficult to measure the croc from that only picture as only half it’s tail is visible and it’s whole body is curved at every point. I am guessing 12feet 4inches as I showed above with a rather optimistic, ‘best case scenario’ guess but it you are more strict in the estimation then it can also be 12 feet or slightly less. Only if the crocodile was fully visible, a much more concrete estimate would be possible. (04-25-2022, 11:25 PM)Ashutosh Wrote: Except, it isn’t linear. A saltwater crocodile measuring 4 metres weighs x kilograms. At 5 metres, it weighs 2x while at 6 metres it weighs 4x. It is geometric. Fair enough. But you see that in a case of geometric progression, the result would still be roughly the same as it would be from the formula I suggested. For example, the approximately 6 metre crocodile weighed 1000kg so a 5 metre one will be 500kg, a 4 metre one will be 250 and a 3 metre one would be 125kg according to your formula. So your formula also gives roughly the same result as my formula. I also estimated 123kg at 3 metres, didn’t I? So both you and I are correct here. And you mentioned Machli killing more crocodiles, do you have any photos available of those? (04-25-2022, 11:30 PM)LonePredator Wrote: I agree. 13ft is impossible for the crocodile. It is also very difficult to measure the croc from that only picture as only half it’s tail is visible and it’s whole body is curved at every point. That is correct, we only have a partial view of the tail, so I reconstruct it based in pictures of other male muggers and the best estimations were between 11.5 to 12.8 ft. But we need to take in count that all depends also of the size of the tigress, which we don't know. However, what we can assure is that the croc was definitelly over 200 kg, base in the only specimen known, which is already bigger than the biggest tigress recorded (177 kg), so this fight was a feat for the Machli, a very strong tigress. (04-25-2022, 11:46 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:(04-25-2022, 11:30 PM)LonePredator Wrote: I agree. 13ft is impossible for the crocodile. It is also very difficult to measure the croc from that only picture as only half it’s tail is visible and it’s whole body is curved at every point. Definitely, I completely agree. People say that Machli was very big and unusually strong and she fought males which may be true but I have not seen anything to completely confirm these things as of yet. And yes, since the 9ft 10inch (300cm) crocodile was 195kg then a 350cm one should be about 309kg (The exponent will not be exactly 3 but between 2.8 to 3.3 so there could be some deviation) And based on the only single mugger specimen that we know about, we know from that a mugger should be quite heavier than a saltwater crocodile at equal length (but we don’t have enough real weights). This should still be taken with a grain of salt as this formula has only been tested on saltwater crocodiles and we don’t know if it will give a precise enough result for Muggers or not and also the weight of only 1 Mugger specimen is available so we don’t know what the usual weight of a 300cm Mugger would be. This is because all crocodiles are not similar in proportion but perhaps they get bulkier as they get longer. I had read somewhere that saltwater crocodiles are approximately 300-400kg on average so this crocodile killed by Machli could have almost been around the weight of an average saltwater crocodile which is truly amazing. This proves that the Tigress Machli was indeed amazing. (04-26-2022, 12:07 AM)LonePredator Wrote: This should still be taken with a grain of salt as this formula has only been tested on saltwater crocodiles and we don’t know if it will apply to Muggers or not and also the weight of only 1 Mugger specimen is available so we don’t know what the usual weight of a 300cm Mugger would be. That is a valid point, but according with the source this was a captive specimen from Pakistan:  *This image is copyright of its original author As we can see that animal was not a particularly large and healty specimen, that means that the figure of 195 kg for a 3 meters male Mugger maybe an underestimation. Check his photo:  *This image is copyright of its original author The animal looks normal, although the tail is not as fat as some wild ones that I have saw in pictures, even the one killed by Machli looks larger than this one. (04-26-2022, 01:09 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(04-26-2022, 12:07 AM)LonePredator Wrote: This should still be taken with a grain of salt as this formula has only been tested on saltwater crocodiles and we don’t know if it will apply to Muggers or not and also the weight of only 1 Mugger specimen is available so we don’t know what the usual weight of a 300cm Mugger would be. Yes, I agree that it does not look particularly healthy but is it possible that as crocodiles get longer they also get bulkier? If this crocodile in Pakistan really weighed less for its length than it should have then this suggests muggers are about twice heavier than saltwater crocodiles at equal lengths which doesn’t seem very likely to me but another thing is that the 300cm weight of Saltwater Crocodiles comes from only an equation so it’s quite possible that it’s also an underestimation. With that said, I would agree that it’s likely that this crocodile could be underestimation and a saltwater crocodile could be around 160kg at 300cm while a mugger could probably be 220kg. Just a guess. I took the 3 mugger weights, one of 111kg at 274cm by Brander which you provided just a moment ago. Then I took the 195kg at 300cm and then I took the 750kg at 560cm and then I tested this relation with these weights but it obviously did not match but I would still say that a 350cm mugger should likely be 300kg+ but this one only comes from a single specimen. (04-26-2022, 01:29 AM)LonePredator Wrote: I took the 3 mugger weights, one of 111kg at 274cm by Brander which you provided just a moment ago. Then I took the 195kg at 300cm and then I took the 750kg at 560cm and then I tested this relation with these weights but it obviously did not match but I would still say that a 350cm mugger should likely be 300kg+. Remember that, sadly, you only have one real weight (the captive one), the other two are estimations and I don't know where you got that 750 kg figure, there is no record about that. In fact, in the webpage of the Wildlife Institute of India they quote a maximum weight of 450 kg, check it: "The Mugger crocodile is a medium to large crocodilian species; an adult male may reach up to 4.5 meters (18 ft) in length and weigh 450 kg (1000 lbs). It has a distinctive aspect, and is the most alligator like of all crocodile species. While juvenile’s generally have a light tan colouring with some black cross-banding on the body and tail, adult specimens are generally gray to brown." Link: https://www.wii.gov.in/nmcg/priority-spe...-crocodile Also, Whitaker & Whitaker (1984) quote that the maximum size reported is of 5.63 m but they do not provide body mases, check it:  *This image is copyright of its original author As real (and reliable) weights of big crocodiles are very scarce, I leave you this detail that may be helpfull. In Costa Rica the Dr Brady Barr measured and weighed what could be the biggest American crocodile ever measured and the only actually weighed, all recorded in video. The animal measured 482 cm (incomplete tail) and they estimated probably up to 5 meters and the beast weighed 1,250 lb (567 kg) and final weight excluding gear says it was 540 kg. (04-26-2022, 02:30 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(04-26-2022, 01:29 AM)LonePredator Wrote: I took the 3 mugger weights, one of 111kg at 274cm by Brander which you provided just a moment ago. Then I took the 195kg at 300cm and then I took the 750kg at 560cm and then I tested this relation with these weights but it obviously did not match but I would still say that a 350cm mugger should likely be 300kg+. Ahh! Then we only have two weights. One is an 111kg @ 274cm estimate by Brander and one real weight of 195kg @ 300cm. And @Ashutosh told me about the 750kg weight but now it indeed seems unreliable. As for the American crocodile, I’m not sure if I should use the American crocodile to estimate the size of Muggers because I tried using Saltwater crocodile and it did not work so using American Crocodile may also not work. Unfortunately it’s impossible to get an estimation for the 350cm mugger with just two available weights and measurements to use as surrogates. If I had 5 or even 4 weights and measurements available to use then maybe I could have derived a nearly accurate relation between the weight and length of muggers. With 4 varying pairs of weights and measurements, I could have made multiple different combinations and averaged them out to get an estimation but with only 2, I can only get a single one (which would obviously be completely unreliable) As for the saltwater crocodiles, I got an average exponent of around 3.115 [LOG base(higher length/lower length) higher weight/lower weight] but the exponents wildly varied between slightly below 3 to slightly more than 4 so I am guessing that these crocodiles get bulkier as they get longer But since we have only 2 weights and measurements, it’s impossible to calculate an estimated weight for the mugger killed by Machli. I would still say around 300kg based on just the single mugger specimen. Nevertheless, thanks a lot friend. You were very helpful just as always. |
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