There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
04-20-2022, 08:05 PM( This post was last modified: 04-20-2022, 08:06 PM by Twico5 )
(04-20-2022, 10:41 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote: @Twico5
Perfect timing, Red Yaguarete just posted a video with a description that confirms what me, Guate and Pckts are telling you.
Nice. What exactly in that description disproves anything ive said.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The description says that this jaguar was a “large adult male”. It says that he will attack the puma if they come across each other. Guess what happens when two male jaguars meet. One of them attacks the other. A jaguar will attack and try to kill a male puma like it would a rival male jaguar. A jaguar is not going to go out searching for a puma to kill obviously this was only talking about what would happen if this large male jaguar came across this puma as both are territorial male cats.
(04-20-2022, 02:40 PM)LonePredator Wrote: @Twico5 You are claiming that just because pumas sometimes have similar length and height as jaguars then pumas would also have the same mass if they eat same prey?
This logic is completely flawed. Would you say that a Cheetah would attain the same weight as a Leopard also just because their height and length overlap?
Lions and Tigers are also close in length and height but Tigers inherently have a different kind of body structure which is why Tigers are a bit heavier. This is even the case when Lions have slower metabolism.
EVEN with a FASTER metabolism, Tigers are still heavier just because of their inherently different body structure.
Similarly, the body structure between Jaguars and Pumas is so vastly different that Jaguars can pack much more mass.
This is the reason Jaguars are said to be so robust. Jaguars simply have such a body structure which allows them to pack more mass even with the same length and height as Cougars.
No? That is not the reason i believe they can attain similar masses. They actually DO when they are eating the same prey.
I am no puma fanboy but i would even go ahead and say most male pumas are proprtionally bulkier (except for in the upper body, neck and head areas) than lions, snow leopards and leopards which are all pantherinae cats.
We are talking about two cats that both tend to be really bulky. Still, we KNOW that they attain similar weights in certain parts of their range so this is not some theory that i have.
(04-20-2022, 10:41 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote: @Twico5
Perfect timing, Red Yaguarete just posted a video with a description that confirms what me, Guate and Pckts are telling you.
Nice. What exactly in that description disproves anything ive said.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The description says that this jaguar was a “large adult male”. It says that he will attack the puma if they come across each other. Guess what happens when two male jaguars meet. One of them attacks the other. A jaguar will attack and try to kill a male puma like it would a rival male jaguar. A jaguar is not going to go out searching for a puma to kill obviously this was only talking about what would happen if this large male jaguar came across this puma as both are territorial male cats.
There's no question, a Jaguar is the dominate cat no matter the location. If both exist the Jaguar will be the one who's brazen, roaring and taking the best prey.
Belize Puma and Jaguar comparison, both said to be male
*This image is copyright of its original author
and a different Jag predation on a Puma, unfortunately I can't find the original post atm.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Here you see a Jag and Puma both killed in a road accident, the Jag actually looks pretty good sized.
04-20-2022, 11:05 PM( This post was last modified: 04-20-2022, 11:06 PM by Pckts )
Quote:1. Only floodplain jaguars outsize the largest puma populations
2. At least in an area where both cats tend to be the same size there would definitely be mutual avoidance
3. Puma size isnt affected at all by the presence of jaguars, their populations arent supressed by jaguars and they never have to resort to hunting different prey because of jaguar presence
1. Wrong-Jaguars outsize Puma everywhere they coexist and I'd wager even in the Caatinga
2. There is no mutual avoidance, one is dominate one isn't. Both can coexist perfectly as long as the weaker one avoids confrontation.
3.Yes it is, hence why they don't prey on the most abundant prey source in the Pantanal nor are they spotted in any areas with high Jaguar density.
Quote:Jaguars don’t weigh significantly more than pumas under the same circumstances and with the same diet.
Amazingly similar yet the Jaguars here significantly outsize Pumas. Chaco Jags rival Cerrado Jags in size and can even get as large as some Pantanal ones time to time.
Quote:The study I posted that had the weights of a female puma and jaguaress also included the weight of a male jaguar (37kg). They weren’t making rough estimates of the sizes of these cats. “From the track sizes of the captured big cats and the others known on the study area”. They captured several jaguars and pumas, measured their paws and weighed them then compared the measurements of the tracks they found to the track sizes of the cats that they weighed.
3 cats captured (1 male, 1 female Jag and 1 Puma female) without age determined is limited at best. To make assumptions on Cat weights of any other pugmarks is extremely limited as well.
For one, do you really think males only weigh 6 kg more than females?
Next, pugmarks can come from the same cats, you don't know who's are who's so again that's a very limited specimen count.
So yes, the claims of averages are absolutely a "rough estimate" at best.
(04-20-2022, 10:41 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote: @Twico5
Perfect timing, Red Yaguarete just posted a video with a description that confirms what me, Guate and Pckts are telling you.
Nice. What exactly in that description disproves anything ive said.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The description says that this jaguar was a “large adult male”. It says that he will attack the puma if they come across each other. Guess what happens when two male jaguars meet. One of them attacks the other. A jaguar will attack and try to kill a male puma like it would a rival male jaguar. A jaguar is not going to go out searching for a puma to kill obviously this was only talking about what would happen if this large male jaguar came across this puma as both are territorial male cats.
There's no question, a Jaguar is the dominate cat no matter the location. If both exist the Jaguar will be the one who's brazen, roaring and taking the best prey.
Belize Puma and Jaguar comparison, both said to be male
*This image is copyright of its original author
and a different Jag predation on a Puma, unfortunately I can't find the original post atm.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Here you see a Jag and Puma both killed in a road accident, the Jag actually looks pretty good sized.
I'd definitely to be curious what that Jag weighed.
Yeah i think jaguars are actually larger than pumas in belize. First of all belizean jaguars arent small for central american jags, one male collared a few years back in the cockscomb basin weighed 63kg. Belize is also where pumas are smallest unlike in nw mexico. Pumas have nothing to eat in cockscomb and this is a really densely vegetated forest that has a very low puma population.
04-21-2022, 12:01 AM( This post was last modified: 04-21-2022, 12:03 AM by Twico5 )
(04-20-2022, 11:05 PM)Pckts Wrote:
Quote:1. Only floodplain jaguars outsize the largest puma populations
2. At least in an area where both cats tend to be the same size there would definitely be mutual avoidance
3. Puma size isnt affected at all by the presence of jaguars, their populations arent supressed by jaguars and they never have to resort to hunting different prey because of jaguar presence
1. Wrong-Jaguars outsize Puma everywhere they coexist and I'd wager even in the Caatinga
2. There is no mutual avoidance, one is dominate one isn't. Both can coexist perfectly as long as the weaker one avoids confrontation.
3.Yes it is, hence why they don't prey on the most abundant prey source in the Pantanal nor are they spotted in any areas with high Jaguar density.
Quote:Jaguars don’t weigh significantly more than pumas under the same circumstances and with the same diet.
Amazingly similar yet the Jaguars here significantly outsize Pumas. Chaco Jags rival Cerrado Jags in size and can even get as large as some Pantanal ones time to time.
Quote:The study I posted that had the weights of a female puma and jaguaress also included the weight of a male jaguar (37kg). They weren’t making rough estimates of the sizes of these cats. “From the track sizes of the captured big cats and the others known on the study area”. They captured several jaguars and pumas, measured their paws and weighed them then compared the measurements of the tracks they found to the track sizes of the cats that they weighed.
3 cats captured (1 male, 1 female Jag and 1 Puma female) without age determined is limited at best. To make assumptions on Cat weights of any other pugmarks is extremely limited as well.
For one, do you really think males only weigh 6 kg more than females?
Next, pugmarks can come from the same cats, you don't know who's are who's so again that's a very limited specimen count.
So yes, the claims of averages are absolutely a "rough estimate" at best.
You said jags in caatinga were eating armadillos right?
*This image is copyright of its original author
Thats crazy because so are belizean jaguars
*This image is copyright of its original author
In your last post you said that belizean jaguars are larger than belizean pumas, which i agree with. Except this has to do with pumas being smaller in belize while larger in caatinga. Maybe caatinga pumas are dominating jags and because of this are able to select larger and better prey.
I showed you a study that very clearly said that pumas are not avoiding jaguars. Pumas do not always avoid jaguars they only do this in forested areas there is a study to prove this. Funny thing is one bolivian study showed that pumas did not avoid jaguars in dry forests as these are preferred habitats for pumas that jaguars happen to live in as well. Chacoan jaguars are much larger? Are you sure about that? I havent seen any puma weights from the chaco region except for one and it was this crazy hunting record of a 170kg puma.
Yet another baseless claim as we have 0 chacoan puma weights. People are still going to like your post and agree with you and that is insane.
Chaco region:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
And about the weights given for those peruvian jags and pumas, we know that pumas are more sexually dimorphic than jaguars it is likley that male pumas are just as large or larger than the male jag captured in that study. Also it clearly says in the screenshot i posted that all the captured cats were adults in good condition and the tracks that they had measured were of known individuals most definitely adults too
04-21-2022, 01:52 AM( This post was last modified: 04-21-2022, 01:53 AM by Pckts )
(04-21-2022, 12:01 AM)Twico5 Wrote:
(04-20-2022, 11:05 PM)Pckts Wrote:
Quote:1. Only floodplain jaguars outsize the largest puma populations
2. At least in an area where both cats tend to be the same size there would definitely be mutual avoidance
3. Puma size isnt affected at all by the presence of jaguars, their populations arent supressed by jaguars and they never have to resort to hunting different prey because of jaguar presence
1. Wrong-Jaguars outsize Puma everywhere they coexist and I'd wager even in the Caatinga
2. There is no mutual avoidance, one is dominate one isn't. Both can coexist perfectly as long as the weaker one avoids confrontation.
3.Yes it is, hence why they don't prey on the most abundant prey source in the Pantanal nor are they spotted in any areas with high Jaguar density.
Quote:Jaguars don’t weigh significantly more than pumas under the same circumstances and with the same diet.
Amazingly similar yet the Jaguars here significantly outsize Pumas. Chaco Jags rival Cerrado Jags in size and can even get as large as some Pantanal ones time to time.
Quote:The study I posted that had the weights of a female puma and jaguaress also included the weight of a male jaguar (37kg). They weren’t making rough estimates of the sizes of these cats. “From the track sizes of the captured big cats and the others known on the study area”. They captured several jaguars and pumas, measured their paws and weighed them then compared the measurements of the tracks they found to the track sizes of the cats that they weighed.
3 cats captured (1 male, 1 female Jag and 1 Puma female) without age determined is limited at best. To make assumptions on Cat weights of any other pugmarks is extremely limited as well.
For one, do you really think males only weigh 6 kg more than females?
Next, pugmarks can come from the same cats, you don't know who's are who's so again that's a very limited specimen count.
So yes, the claims of averages are absolutely a "rough estimate" at best.
You said jags in caatinga were eating armadillos right?
*This image is copyright of its original author
Thats crazy because so are belizean jaguars
*This image is copyright of its original author
In your last post you said that belizean jaguars are larger than belizean pumas, which i agree with. Except this has to do with pumas being smaller in belize while larger in caatinga. Maybe caatinga pumas are dominating jags and because of this are able to select larger and better prey.
I showed you a study that very clearly said that pumas are not avoiding jaguars. Pumas do not always avoid jaguars they only do this in forested areas there is a study to prove this. Funny thing is one bolivian study showed that pumas did not avoid jaguars in dry forests as these are preferred habitats for pumas that jaguars happen to live in as well. Chacoan jaguars are much larger? Are you sure about that? I havent seen any puma weights from the chaco region except for one and it was this crazy hunting record of a 170kg puma.
Yet another baseless claim as we have 0 chacoan puma weights. People are still going to like your post and agree with you and that is insane.
Chaco region:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
And about the weights given for those peruvian jags and pumas, we know that pumas are more sexually dimorphic than jaguars it is likley that male pumas are just as large or larger than the male jag captured in that study. Also it clearly says in the screenshot i posted that all the captured cats were adults in good condition and the tracks that they had measured were of known individuals most definitely adults too
Quote:You said jags in caatinga were eating armadillos right? Thats crazy because so are belizean jaguars
And also Peccary, and if you go off of actual prey biomass, the Peccary contribute far more than Armadillos
Quote:In your last post you said that belizean jaguars are larger than belizean pumas, which i agree with. Except this has to do with pumas being smaller in belize while larger in caatinga. Maybe caatinga pumas are dominating jags and because of this are able to select larger and better prey.
Where are you getting a claim that Pumas are dominating Jags in Caatinga?
Like I've stated, there is absolutely no place where these two coexist that a Puma will dominate a Jaguar.
I think you need to clarify what your interpretation of "dominate" is.
Because if you're talking about quantity of individuals they specifically talk about the human caused suffering administered to the Caatinga Jag and how a Puma can take calfs, stash them 3 at a time but come time for the farmers to take revenge, they'll only find a jaguar due to it's size and poor camouflage and thus they get killed off.
On top of that, their prey has also been depleted which allows the Pumas to succeed off smaller more versatile prey in which the Jags have a harder time taking.
Quote:I showed you a study that very clearly said that pumas are not avoiding jaguars.
Being seen in the same area has nothing to do with avoiding. Tigers and Leopards live in the same area, Lions and Leopards and so on.
The point is that if both run in to one another, you can be sure that it'll be the Puma which is smaller that beats a hasty retreat.
Quote:Chacoan jaguars are much larger? Are you sure about that? I havent seen any puma weights from the chaco region except for one and it was this crazy hunting record of a 170kg puma.
I'm 100% sure about that and it's not even close.
The claim of any puma of 170kg is an absolute joke. The book literally prefaces that claim with the weights being "overestimates." Not to mention, a hunter
Just look at SCI skulls
You wont see a single Chaco Puma skull on the list but you most certainly will see quite a few Jag Chaco skulls.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Quote:Yet another baseless claim as we have 0 chacoan puma weights. People are still going to like your post and agree with you and that is insane.
Would you like me to ask Nick how he thought the Gran Chaco Pumas compared to the Jaguars?
Nicholas Mcphee
Couple of images from Bolivia exploring the rarely visited Gran Chaco ecosystem in Kaa Iya National Park.
*This image is copyright of its original author
How about these two
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
So unless you're making the claim that Pumas in Chaco are the largest pumas on earth, I think the facts are pretty clear in that regard, are they not?
Quote:we know that pumas are more sexually dimorphic than jaguars it is likley that male pumas are just as large or larger than the male jag captured in that study. Also it clearly says in the screenshot i posted that all the captured cats were adults in good condition and the tracks that they had measured were of known individuals most definitely adults too
Shall we add this to the list of made up facts?
And how exactly is it likely that Male Pumas are just as large or larger than the male jag captured when the only female was smaller than the male? And of course, Jaguars are larger than Pumas in that region as well.
Quote:1. Only floodplain jaguars outsize the largest puma populations
2. At least in an area where both cats tend to be the same size there would definitely be mutual avoidance
3. Puma size isnt affected at all by the presence of jaguars, their populations arent supressed by jaguars and they never have to resort to hunting different prey because of jaguar presence
1. Wrong-Jaguars outsize Puma everywhere they coexist and I'd wager even in the Caatinga
2. There is no mutual avoidance, one is dominate one isn't. Both can coexist perfectly as long as the weaker one avoids confrontation.
3.Yes it is, hence why they don't prey on the most abundant prey source in the Pantanal nor are they spotted in any areas with high Jaguar density.
Quote:Jaguars don’t weigh significantly more than pumas under the same circumstances and with the same diet.
Amazingly similar yet the Jaguars here significantly outsize Pumas. Chaco Jags rival Cerrado Jags in size and can even get as large as some Pantanal ones time to time.
Quote:The study I posted that had the weights of a female puma and jaguaress also included the weight of a male jaguar (37kg). They weren’t making rough estimates of the sizes of these cats. “From the track sizes of the captured big cats and the others known on the study area”. They captured several jaguars and pumas, measured their paws and weighed them then compared the measurements of the tracks they found to the track sizes of the cats that they weighed.
3 cats captured (1 male, 1 female Jag and 1 Puma female) without age determined is limited at best. To make assumptions on Cat weights of any other pugmarks is extremely limited as well.
For one, do you really think males only weigh 6 kg more than females?
Next, pugmarks can come from the same cats, you don't know who's are who's so again that's a very limited specimen count.
So yes, the claims of averages are absolutely a "rough estimate" at best.
You said jags in caatinga were eating armadillos right?
*This image is copyright of its original author
Thats crazy because so are belizean jaguars
*This image is copyright of its original author
In your last post you said that belizean jaguars are larger than belizean pumas, which i agree with. Except this has to do with pumas being smaller in belize while larger in caatinga. Maybe caatinga pumas are dominating jags and because of this are able to select larger and better prey.
I showed you a study that very clearly said that pumas are not avoiding jaguars. Pumas do not always avoid jaguars they only do this in forested areas there is a study to prove this. Funny thing is one bolivian study showed that pumas did not avoid jaguars in dry forests as these are preferred habitats for pumas that jaguars happen to live in as well. Chacoan jaguars are much larger? Are you sure about that? I havent seen any puma weights from the chaco region except for one and it was this crazy hunting record of a 170kg puma.
Yet another baseless claim as we have 0 chacoan puma weights. People are still going to like your post and agree with you and that is insane.
Chaco region:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
And about the weights given for those peruvian jags and pumas, we know that pumas are more sexually dimorphic than jaguars it is likley that male pumas are just as large or larger than the male jag captured in that study. Also it clearly says in the screenshot i posted that all the captured cats were adults in good condition and the tracks that they had measured were of known individuals most definitely adults too
Quote:You said jags in caatinga were eating armadillos right? Thats crazy because so are belizean jaguars
And also Peccary, and if you go off of actual prey biomass, the Peccary contribute far more than Armadillos
Quote:In your last post you said that belizean jaguars are larger than belizean pumas, which i agree with. Except this has to do with pumas being smaller in belize while larger in caatinga. Maybe caatinga pumas are dominating jags and because of this are able to select larger and better prey.
Where are you getting a claim that Pumas are dominating Jags in Caatinga?
Like I've stated, there is absolutely no place where these two coexist that a Puma will dominate a Jaguar.
I think you need to clarify what your interpretation of "dominate" is.
Because if you're talking about quantity of individuals they specifically talk about the human caused suffering administered to the Caatinga Jag and how a Puma can take calfs, stash them 3 at a time but come time for the farmers to take revenge, they'll only find a jaguar due to it's size and poor camouflage and thus they get killed off.
On top of that, their prey has also been depleted which allows the Pumas to succeed off smaller more versatile prey in which the Jags have a harder time taking.
Quote:I showed you a study that very clearly said that pumas are not avoiding jaguars.
Being seen in the same area has nothing to do with avoiding. Tigers and Leopards live in the same area, Lions and Leopards and so on.
The point is that if both run in to one another, you can be sure that it'll be the Puma which is smaller that beats a hasty retreat.
Quote:Chacoan jaguars are much larger? Are you sure about that? I havent seen any puma weights from the chaco region except for one and it was this crazy hunting record of a 170kg puma.
I'm 100% sure about that and it's not even close.
The claim of any puma of 170kg is an absolute joke. The book literally prefaces that claim with the weights being "overestimates." Not to mention, a hunter
Just look at SCI skulls
You wont see a single Chaco Puma skull on the list but you most certainly will see quite a few Jag Chaco skulls.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Quote:Yet another baseless claim as we have 0 chacoan puma weights. People are still going to like your post and agree with you and that is insane.
Would you like me to ask Nick how he thought the Gran Chaco Pumas compared to the Jaguars?
Nicholas Mcphee
Couple of images from Bolivia exploring the rarely visited Gran Chaco ecosystem in Kaa Iya National Park.
*This image is copyright of its original author
How about these two
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
So unless you're making the claim that Pumas in Chaco are the largest pumas on earth, I think the facts are pretty clear in that regard, are they not?
Quote:we know that pumas are more sexually dimorphic than jaguars it is likley that male pumas are just as large or larger than the male jag captured in that study. Also it clearly says in the screenshot i posted that all the captured cats were adults in good condition and the tracks that they had measured were of known individuals most definitely adults too
Shall we add this to the list of made up facts?
And how exactly is it likely that Male Pumas are just as large or larger than the male jag captured when the only female was smaller than the male? And of course, Jaguars are larger than Pumas in that region as well.
Yeah my bad chaco jags are big. I was for some reason expecting this to be the only place where floodplain jags were smaller but apparently not.
Hello everyone! Does anyone have any length and weight measurements of Mugger crocodiles? I could only find a single one where a 9ft 10in (300cm) mugger weighed 195kg. Does anyone else have any more weights and measurements?
I am trying to find a relation between the increase/decrease in length and the increase/decrease in weight of the mugger crocodiles. In other words, I am trying to find out that if the length of the mugger increases by x times then how many times the weight would increase.
But to find such a relation, I would need at least more than one pair of weight and measurements of muggers. The more the better. If anyone has anything on this, please share it here.
Weight measurements on adult muggers is very scarce. Although, the largest mugger measured 5.6 metres and it would mostly weigh in the 700-800 kilo range. Specimens over 5 metres are rare.
On a side note , mugger crocodiles are first reptiles seen to use tools to hunt. They use twigs and branches to lure birds. They are closest relatives of the saltwater crocodile.
04-25-2022, 10:23 PM( This post was last modified: 04-26-2022, 03:40 AM by LonePredator )
(04-25-2022, 10:14 PM)Ashutosh Wrote: Weight measurements on adult muggers is very scarce. Although, the largest mugger measured 5.6 metres and it would mostly weigh in the 700-800 kilo range. Specimens over 5 metres are rare.
On a side note , mugger crocodiles are first reptiles seen to use tools to hunt. They use twigs and branches to lure birds. They are closest relatives of the saltwater crocodile.
Twigs and branches? Interesting. One wouldn’t usually expect a reptile like animal to be this intelligent.
We shall assume a weight of 750kg for a 5.6m crocodile and a 195kg weight for a 3.0m crocodile. I need at least 1 more weight to be able to find some relation between the length and weight of mugger crocodiles.
We know that when saltwater crocodiles increase in length by x times then they increase in weight by approximately x^3 times. Then from a specimen of 1075kg, 617.22cm in length, I estimated a weight of 123kg for a saltwater crocodile of 300cm.
This means that a 300cm mugger crocodile weighed 195kg while a 300cm saltwater crocodile should only weight 123kg, this probably means that mugger crocodiles are heavier at equal lengths.
@GuateGojira could you help me out with this? I have only weights and measurements of two mugger specimens which is not enough to find a relation between length and weight of muggers.
(04-25-2022, 10:23 PM)LonePredator Wrote: @GuateGojira could you help me out with this? I have only weights and measurements of two mugger specimens which is not enough to find a relation between length and weight of muggers.
I am sorry my friend, I only have information of total length and that same weight of 195 kg. However this estimation from Brander may be useful for you:
