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Lions of Sabi Sands
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The Avocas did the same in BBoy territories earlier. No takeover followed.
There also isn't anything in Londolozi to take over to be honest. There are no prides. Lions don't care about empty land and I don't see them giving up their current prides for it. So I doubt that was their intentions. If there are plans for a take over. More likely they are after the prides the Avocas or Birminghams hold and they will make the attempt very soon. Otherwise, they will just go home.  (11-12-2021, 02:28 AM)Gijima Wrote: Great find @Tr1x24 He definitely didn't fight N. Avocas, even in 1 vs 2, he would had manage to throw few punches to Avocas, Avocas dont have 1 scratch. Also doesnt explain Amahle injury, who injured him then? Also both Wide Nose and Amahle where healthy on that footage chasing Kambula female in the night, at that time Avocas where already chased off. Fight sounds can be easily brothers fighting over females. Lets wait and see injuries on Wide Nose, it might not be as serious as described.  (11-12-2021, 02:37 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(11-12-2021, 02:28 AM)Gijima Wrote: Great find @Tr1x24 What HE described is a fight between rival males. Brothers don't castrate you when fighting for mating right. Now he could have just totally exaggerated so yes let's wait for photos to see the damage. (11-12-2021, 02:41 AM)Gijima Wrote: What HE described is a fight between rival males. Brothers don't castrate you when fighting for mating right. It doesnt explain Amahle injury, or did Avocas injured him aswell? Avocas must be best fighers in the world then, injuring 2 males without a scratch. And as you said, we need to see injuries on Wide Nose, it might be exaggerated. People didn't believe that Tumbelas/Othawas where attacking Scar Tumbela when we saw bite marks on his legs, until we actually saw a video that they do attack him.. Its quite easy when 3 males fight, 2 males pound on 1 male in a heat of a moment. This is 4 males (Jock males i think) attacking their brother and bitiing him on his rear:
I just repeated what this person, who was there in person, described and said IF what he said was true then that is what happened. But with videos of either coalition we won’t know and even then we are still taking guesses so all of us needs to relax and not get heated. We are all putting the pieces together based on bits of info here and there.
(11-12-2021, 03:01 AM)Gijima Wrote: I just repeated what this person, who was there in person, described and said IF what he said was true then that is what happened. But with videos of either coalition we won’t know and even then we are still taking guesses so all of us needs to relax and not get heated. We are all putting the pieces together based on bits of info here and there. Yea, if what he says is true, then N. Avocas where definitely not in fight as they where far away and completely healthy (we have picture of Mohawk on 9th, not 1 fresh scar). Its 99% that N'ws fight among themselves, as all 3, and even Kambula female has some injuries/scars. I think a lot of people underestimate how intense fighting for mating rights can be, especially if multiple males are on 1 female, and N'ws already show that they are quite fierce between themselves.  (11-12-2021, 01:31 AM)Gijima Wrote: They absolutely do. Males lions will scope out a territory for weeks or months before making a move. They are far more intelligent that we give them credit for. And the foaming at the mouth is only seen when males are behaving territorial, not when they are sneaking around.To say that, it would be necessary to be able to establish that a lion is capable not only of implementing tactics, which he knows how to do, during hunting in particular, but also of strategy. And in the particular case of an attempt to conquer a territory in coalition to be able to communicate on this subject with its partners. To plan an action weeks in advance, the lions would have to be able to hold abstract reasoning, which is rather improbable. They would also need a complex communication capacity, an evolved language to tackle these abstract topics. And they would only use it on this occasion, since in everyday life, they are unable to do so ? These things are accessible to very few animal species. It is more likely that the Nawas started their movement instinctively, in an attempt to find new females, and that the rest, for the most part, is a matter of circumstances.
Scar Tumbella was in a far worse situation than just the normal fights about food though. He was so far down the social ladder no lion just cared anymore about what happened to him. He just became the groups punching bag.
Fights may also look severe, but they have a good control over how much damage they do in a attack. So if severe wounds are confirmed, its not likely from fights within the coalition. Lions fight all the time afteral. They would be extinct by now if they seriously hurt eachother over minor stuff. The main issue is just that we still have no good picture of what's going on and need some actual photos and videos of the lions involved. And not someone's interpretation of what they think they saw. Its easy to confuse some minor scratches as big wounds in the excitement about there being a fight. Just as easily as it is to look past them and declare a animal to be uninjured. (11-12-2021, 03:20 AM)Thierry Wrote:(11-12-2021, 01:31 AM)Gijima Wrote: They absolutely do. Males lions will scope out a territory for weeks or months before making a move. They are far more intelligent that we give them credit for. And the foaming at the mouth is only seen when males are behaving territorial, not when they are sneaking around.To say that, it would be necessary to be able to establish that a lion is capable not only of implementing tactics, which he knows how to do, during hunting in particular, but also of strategy. And in the particular case of an attempt to conquer a territory in coalition to be able to communicate on this subject with its partners. I never said they sit down and plan the way humans might on a white board. Obviously the lions coordinate and work together but it’s at a different level than us. But to say lions just bumbled into Londolozi with no intention is wrong. Did you listen to the Londolozi guides explain how many days the N’was have been moving through that area quietly, assessing it as a viable area? Yes they follow their instincts and yes a lot of what happens will be based on circumstances like running into another group of lions they didn’t expect to find. My original response was to someone saying this wasn’t a takeover attempt. I guess every ranger, guide and lodge manager is wrong and know nothing (since these are their words) but us experts online, many of whom haven’t even seen a lion in the wild, know better? I’m going by what was described by the guides there who have been following coalitions, in person, for decades. 
Want to know your opinion, which of the Birmingham Boys do you think are the father of the youngest nkuhuma adult lioness?
 *This image is copyright of its original author
 
Between 2015-2020 the Sand River Pride had been dominated by 3 different coalitions. Each time male lions take over a pride, they kill cubs and chase away the remaining sub-adult lions. By 2020 the Sand River Pride had been diminished from 11 lions to just 2 adult females.
Today, with the protection of the Southern Avoca males, they are 4 lionesses with cubs of various ages. They are a pride that is finally on the rise again. (11-12-2021, 04:48 AM)ijima Wrote: I never said they sit down and plan the way humans might on a white board. Obviously the lions coordinate and work together but it’s at a different level than us. But to say lions just bumbled into Londolozi with no intention is wrong.In your response to Duco Ndona, who wrote : "Lions aren't going to plan things for months ahead." you said: "They absolutely do. Male lions will scope out a territory for weeks or months before making a move. They are far more intelligent that we give them credit for." It would fall under the realm of strategy. But when lions explore a foreign territory, it seems to me daring to claim that it could be preparatory for a take-over months later. During these explorations, they may encounter lioness pride, without particular opposition, and fulfill the role nature has given them, or face resistance from resident males, whom they scare away, fight or avoid. They may also not meet anyone and return home. All of this is very circumstantial, but not the proven fruit of advance planning. However, there is a very clear difference between what we can call a tactical intelligence, that is to say the ability to respond, more or less spontaneously and circumstantially, to a given situation, and that of predicting and coordinate future actions in order to provoke planned situations, to which we would then have a thoughtful and appropriate response, something that emerges from the strategy. I think we can agree that lions very regularly demonstrate that they have tactical intelligence. But they show us just as clearly that they don't have the capacity to plan for the long term. It is this assertion on your part that I contested On the other hand, we again agree, when it comes to asserting that lions do not enter a territory without reason. Can we speak of intention, I am not convinced. When the Nawas have moved, they respond to what their instincts command them.  |
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