Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines

[tigerluver]

I can't make any comparisons until Friday, much too busy, sorry.

@Fieryeel, do you see any evidence of the tooth be filed down or modified in some way? Withering could also result on a slight change in shape, and considering @GrizzlyClaws stand it could exaggerate the point. Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

The pointed root can also be seen among the lower canine teeth of the modern big cats.

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[Fieryeel]

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Here's a cross-section of the tooth when it was broken previously. This was the other reason why the fossil feline expert said it wasn't big-cat. Apparently the cross-section shape isn't feline-ish. Is there a specific shape for feline canine?

(09-16-2015, 07:17 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: The pointed root can also be seen among the lower canine teeth of the modern big cats.

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Ooh that's a great sign! I'm still really hopeful I have a tiger canine of course. Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

Because the tooth has been fully fossilized, and the different locations can produce the different coloration and striation because of the different minerals in the sediment.


Here is the cross section of a living tiger specimen.

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And here is a tiger subfossil

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[Pckts]

I must say, you guys are  very informed on this topic. Its nice to learn soo much from you all.
Your style of discussion has made this topic much more interesting to me than before. Maybe because it was over my head and the way you have discussed it makes it easier for me to follow, who knows.
Either way, well done guys.
Keep up the great topic. Reply

[tigerluver]

The inner material of the tooth is not a valid identifier in my opinion. As @GrizzlyClaws pointed out, mineral have been replacing the organics of the tooth. Remember, the tooth is likely over 300 kya if it is of Ngandong tiger's. The area has been a humid, high decomposition area for hundreds of thousands of years, and thus bones found there will be chemically different than what they actually were. In other words, Java fossils are in bad condition most of the time. Most people are only familiar with the American and European fossils cats, which have more favorable conditions in preserving their chemical nature. Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

There is an obvious layer of skin in tiger's canine teeth, and it is also visible in the Solo River tooth.

So this is a perfect visual comparison between a fossil tooth, a subfossil tooth, and a fully organic tooth.

The fossil looks completely like a rock, while the subfossil looks half organic and half rock.

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[tigerluver]

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Matched okay, but It turns out one can overlay lower and upper teeth in the wrong area without too much problem in cats:

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The main issue I see in both cases is the layer of coloration doesn't match when a lower canine is overlayed over the upper canine. The ends of lower canines also look thinner and more tapered, even if they're not pointed.

@GrizzlyClaws, the comparison for P. atrox you requested, it didn't work out too well for the two mandibles I used from Merriam and Stock. There is a lot of mandible variation in cats, though. :

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[GrizzlyClaws]

Maybe it is an upper canine, and people just mixed up as a lower one.

And it is strange that @Fieryeel's tooth matches with both skull and mandible. Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

@tigerluver, I think I know who is the owner of the 14 cm lower canine.

Compared with the left lower canine of the South China tiger, it is almost identical. And I hope you could make a comparison with the Wanhsien tiger/South China tiger mandible.

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[GuateGojira]

@GrizzlyClaws and @tigerluver, my congratulations for kept such a good topic active, with constant new data and new posters!

I am thinking in create an image with a comparative image of the size of the Ngandong tiger and all the large bones available, at scale!

Let me know what do you think. Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

Another comparison.

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[tigerluver]

South China skull overlay:

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Wahnsien skull overlay:

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In both cases, the fossil tooth is thinner. I noticed a trend that tooth size became slightly smaller as skull size grew larger in tiger teeth, so maybe this is what's happening here. Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

The outer edge of the crown has been slightly damaged, that's why the tooth has become thinner.

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[GrizzlyClaws]

The fossil tooth is not completely intact.

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