There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(11-01-2020, 02:28 AM)Shadow Wrote: Well, people who saw this said, that Edno left, not siblings. Guide told that Edno ran away and this person who took photos also said, that Edno left, not siblings. I think, that they know what they saw. But you are free to have your opinion of course, I don´t mind.
Where are you reading that Edno ran away, let alone was being chased off?
Like I said, they will leave the Meeting of the 3 rivers not Edno, you can almost guarantee it.
I didn´t write, that it was chased off. You can check my posting if you misunderstood something. Guide who filmed this incident on video wrote, that Edno ran away. You can of course guarantee things, but I have been writing about this confrontation and what happened there. What happens in future is another thing. Big cats have been backing off to come back later, it´s not something never seen before. Being intimidated or confused at one moment doesn´t mean some "decisive loss". But it´s good to remember, that Edno, even though big and impressive is an jaguar, sometimes situations can be so surprising that it doesn´t know how to handle it and it has to back off. There is a video showing how one dhole manages to make a big male leopard to run away full speed, so I don´t see anything extraordinary in it, that big male jaguar doesn´t want to try his luck with two smaller jaguars if not absolutely necessary.
Where are you seeing someone say he "ran off?"
Not someone, the guide who filmed this. He wrote in Instagram.
Where is the ig post?
In instagram, you need to read comment section.
I am, which is why I'm asking you where you see it because I don't.
Ya, I know. And I see the comment section with comments in Portuguese. I don't see where he claims that Edno ran off hence why I'm asking where he does. Maybe I have to wait for a translation on a pc or Balam can assist.
Yes, he says it in Portuguese so you need to use translator. And in the end the way he backed off from that place is a detail in my thoughts. I find it most interesting to see how siblings stayed there together against "common enemy", neither one fleeing.
(11-01-2020, 03:26 AM)Pckts Wrote: Where are you reading that Edno ran away, let alone was being chased off?
Like I said, they will leave the Meeting of the 3 rivers not Edno, you can almost guarantee it.
I didn´t write, that it was chased off. You can check my posting if you misunderstood something. Guide who filmed this incident on video wrote, that Edno ran away. You can of course guarantee things, but I have been writing about this confrontation and what happened there. What happens in future is another thing. Big cats have been backing off to come back later, it´s not something never seen before. Being intimidated or confused at one moment doesn´t mean some "decisive loss". But it´s good to remember, that Edno, even though big and impressive is an jaguar, sometimes situations can be so surprising that it doesn´t know how to handle it and it has to back off. There is a video showing how one dhole manages to make a big male leopard to run away full speed, so I don´t see anything extraordinary in it, that big male jaguar doesn´t want to try his luck with two smaller jaguars if not absolutely necessary.
Where are you seeing someone say he "ran off?"
Not someone, the guide who filmed this. He wrote in Instagram.
Where is the ig post?
In instagram, you need to read comment section.
I am, which is why I'm asking you where you see it because I don't.
Ya, I know. And I see the comment section with comments in Portuguese. I don't see where he claims that Edno ran off hence why I'm asking where he does. Maybe I have to wait for a translation on a pc or Balam can assist.
Yes, he says it in Portuguese so you need to use translator. And in the end the way he backed off from that place is a detail in my thoughts. I find it most interesting to see how siblings stayed there together against "common enemy", neither one fleeing.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Sorry but my translator isn't saying that but Portuguese doesn't translate perfectly to English when you Google translate.
@Balam or @dark jaguar can help im sure.
(11-01-2020, 03:33 AM)Shadow Wrote: I didn´t write, that it was chased off. You can check my posting if you misunderstood something. Guide who filmed this incident on video wrote, that Edno ran away. You can of course guarantee things, but I have been writing about this confrontation and what happened there. What happens in future is another thing. Big cats have been backing off to come back later, it´s not something never seen before. Being intimidated or confused at one moment doesn´t mean some "decisive loss". But it´s good to remember, that Edno, even though big and impressive is an jaguar, sometimes situations can be so surprising that it doesn´t know how to handle it and it has to back off. There is a video showing how one dhole manages to make a big male leopard to run away full speed, so I don´t see anything extraordinary in it, that big male jaguar doesn´t want to try his luck with two smaller jaguars if not absolutely necessary.
Where are you seeing someone say he "ran off?"
Not someone, the guide who filmed this. He wrote in Instagram.
Where is the ig post?
In instagram, you need to read comment section.
I am, which is why I'm asking you where you see it because I don't.
Ya, I know. And I see the comment section with comments in Portuguese. I don't see where he claims that Edno ran off hence why I'm asking where he does. Maybe I have to wait for a translation on a pc or Balam can assist.
Yes, he says it in Portuguese so you need to use translator. And in the end the way he backed off from that place is a detail in my thoughts. I find it most interesting to see how siblings stayed there together against "common enemy", neither one fleeing.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Sorry but my translator isn't saying that but Portuguese doesn't translate perfectly to English when you Google translate.
@Balam or @dark jaguar can help im sure.
Those comments basically say the same thing we've gone over here, that both siblings faced Edno who is a much larger male than the male sibling. There's no mention of him running away, that was a mistranslation. To be fair the grammar used in that post was not the best, but the post I put here in English went into more detail regarding the whole incident.
The following 1 user Likes Balam's post:1 user Likes Balam's post • Pckts
Ya, I know. And I see the comment section with comments in Portuguese. I don't see where he claims that Edno ran off hence why I'm asking where he does. Maybe I have to wait for a translation on a pc or Balam can assist.
Yes, he says it in Portuguese so you need to use translator. And in the end the way he backed off from that place is a detail in my thoughts. I find it most interesting to see how siblings stayed there together against "common enemy", neither one fleeing.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Sorry but my translator isn't saying that but Portuguese doesn't translate perfectly to English when you Google translate.
@Balam or @dark jaguar can help im sure.
Those comments basically say the same thing we've gone over here, that both siblings faced Edno who is a much larger male than the male sibling. There's no mention of him running away, that was a mistranslation. To be fair the grammar used in that post was not the best, but the post I put here in English went into more detail regarding the whole incident.
Google translator told, that he wrote that Edno ran away and my Brazilian friend also looked the text and said the same. So no mistranslation there. Guide wrote that third jaguar ran. My friend said, that alternative translation would be: the couple kicked out the arriving male. Anyone can look at the text at instagram and check.
Then again as I said earlier, the way he backed off is a detail. Most interesting thing for me was, that these siblings didn´t go away and stayed there and it was Edno in the end leaving the place. This kind of unusual incident is interesting and it can be speculated in many ways from different points of views.
11-02-2020, 02:02 AM( This post was last modified: 11-02-2020, 02:03 AM by Dark Jaguar )
(11-01-2020, 03:19 AM)Balam Wrote: @Dark Jaguar check the intraspecific conflicts thread, i posted two videos of the interaction. Overall I second everything you said.
The two siblings are only 15 months in age, probably just gained independence from their mother, Susanna female.
The dynamics involving the formation of coalitions by jaguars is extremely interesting and understudied. Jaguars remain, alongside snow leopards, the most understudied of the felids within the genus Panthera and interactions like this just keep showing how much we still have to know about them.
@Balam I didn't know about the videos thanks for letting me know.
Now that I saw the 2 videos and despite them being too short I see that Edno is clearly the one that is messing around with both over there, Edno is the confident cat on that situation, the siblings seems way more anxious and concerned about Edno's presence than otherwise, all the siblings can do is to get defensive and Edno is the one approaching them and pushing the fight and he is always the one striking and smacking them first whereas the siblings don't have another choice but to fight back the big male. Also as Edno calms down and stops a little bit with the aggressions you can see the whole enviornment also calms down since Edno is the trouble maker of that interaction and is the one starting the whole conflict over the defensive youngsters.
I think we cannot get into deep conclusions out of very few cut off seconds of video interactions and since it was said Edno got chased its surprising and interesting but I still don't think he was going all out on that interaction and by that outcome I can rule out the possibility of his mating intentions over the young female because if that was the case, the outcome of that encounter could've been way more intense.
Thats how I interpreted that situation in those short videos.
11-02-2020, 03:30 AM( This post was last modified: 11-02-2020, 03:30 AM by Dark Jaguar )
Londolozi Professional trackers in Pantanal tracking mating pair of Pantanal jaguars.
filmed by: Adam Bannister
He shows the comparisons of the male and female pugmarks and Its interesting to notice at 30 secs he says the Pugmark size being as big as a fully grown lioness.
''On the left from here, you can see its quite big, just like a fully grown lioness.''
They manage to track the spot they mated and hear the jaguars mating sounds as explained by Adam Bannister himself eventually.
''During our trip in november we came across two jaguars. The male jaguar was following the female for mating. We followed these jaguars the whole day and we saw them mating several times. The next day we returned to the same location and spotted the same female jaguar only now with a different male (Holyfield). In the afternoon they were mating and when another boat came too close he let them know they where too close.''
11-03-2020, 07:35 PM( This post was last modified: 11-03-2020, 07:37 PM by Shadow )
(11-02-2020, 02:02 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:
(11-01-2020, 03:19 AM)Balam Wrote: @Dark Jaguar check the intraspecific conflicts thread, i posted two videos of the interaction. Overall I second everything you said.
The two siblings are only 15 months in age, probably just gained independence from their mother, Susanna female.
The dynamics involving the formation of coalitions by jaguars is extremely interesting and understudied. Jaguars remain, alongside snow leopards, the most understudied of the felids within the genus Panthera and interactions like this just keep showing how much we still have to know about them.
@Balam I didn't know about the videos thanks for letting me know.
Now that I saw the 2 videos and despite them being too short I see that Edno is clearly the one that is messing around with both over there, Edno is the confident cat on that situation, the siblings seems way more anxious and concerned about Edno's presence than otherwise, all the siblings can do is to get defensive and Edno is the one approaching them and pushing the fight and he is always the one striking and smacking them first whereas the siblings don't have another choice but to fight back the big male. Also as Edno calms down and stops a little bit with the aggressions you can see the whole enviornment also calms down since Edno is the trouble maker of that interaction and is the one starting the whole conflict over the defensive youngsters.
I think we cannot get into deep conclusions out of very few cut off seconds of video interactions and since it was said Edno got chased its surprising and interesting but I still don't think he was going all out on that interaction and by that outcome I can rule out the possibility of his mating intentions over the young female because if that was the case, the outcome of that encounter could've been way more intense.
Thats how I interpreted that situation in those short videos.
I add a bit here since this incident had a lot of comments. What you wrote here are the obvious things which anyone who knows anything about animal behavior can see and understand. I mean it, that Edno was offensive and siblings would have loved to be left alone, not willingly fighting against bigger opponent. It´s a no-brainer and alone nothing too interesting really. It happens all the time in wild, more dominant individual bullies other.
What I find interesting is, that despite facing such threat, neither of the siblings didn´t leave the place leaving other one to face the threat alone. Usually males fight and winner then mates with female. Twist here was the bond which siblings seemed to have and interesting thing is, that what kind of role it played in this incident or did it? And did Edno feel in some way, that if going full force against one, that he could be attacked by other? Usually males don´t need to worry about such while fighting another male.
There is now some material from two different sources and main story is, that Edno approached, but after some fight/aggressive encounters left. I showed Portuguese texts from guide who filmed video to two Brazilian people I know. Both gave translation, that siblings made Edno to run away even though he was much bigger than other male. I didn´t say it in the first place, because I wanted to see what kind of translations are offered from others and are those honest translations. That guide used some slang there, which my friends explained to me and obviously it was the reason why google translation couldn´t give proper translation to all text.
All in all, from these photos and two short clips, just as you said, can´t be seen too much. The most interesting part isn´t there and it would be the last minute or two and what happened there. Also this photographer said, that siblings "won the war". Even if they won "psychological warfare" by refusing to leave other one to face Edno alone and maybe confusing Edno in that way, it´s very interesting. Not it, that people repeat the obvious, that Edno was the biggest and strongest individual out of these three and at least in the beginning most confident and maybe even in the end too (anyone can see it easily), but still for some reason not confident enough to finish what it started. Or at least it looks like to be so, when reading what people who were there tell.
Hopefully more information and video footage comes up in future. A bit odd, that only two short clips now, I doubt that they couldn´t film it all.
11-03-2020, 11:07 PM( This post was last modified: 11-03-2020, 11:11 PM by Dark Jaguar )
(11-03-2020, 07:35 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-02-2020, 02:02 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:
(11-01-2020, 03:19 AM)Balam Wrote: @Dark Jaguar check the intraspecific conflicts thread, i posted two videos of the interaction. Overall I second everything you said.
The two siblings are only 15 months in age, probably just gained independence from their mother, Susanna female.
The dynamics involving the formation of coalitions by jaguars is extremely interesting and understudied. Jaguars remain, alongside snow leopards, the most understudied of the felids within the genus Panthera and interactions like this just keep showing how much we still have to know about them.
@Balam I didn't know about the videos thanks for letting me know.
Now that I saw the 2 videos and despite them being too short I see that Edno is clearly the one that is messing around with both over there, Edno is the confident cat on that situation, the siblings seems way more anxious and concerned about Edno's presence than otherwise, all the siblings can do is to get defensive and Edno is the one approaching them and pushing the fight and he is always the one striking and smacking them first whereas the siblings don't have another choice but to fight back the big male. Also as Edno calms down and stops a little bit with the aggressions you can see the whole enviornment also calms down since Edno is the trouble maker of that interaction and is the one starting the whole conflict over the defensive youngsters.
I think we cannot get into deep conclusions out of very few cut off seconds of video interactions and since it was said Edno got chased its surprising and interesting but I still don't think he was going all out on that interaction and by that outcome I can rule out the possibility of his mating intentions over the young female because if that was the case, the outcome of that encounter could've been way more intense.
Thats how I interpreted that situation in those short videos.
I add a bit here since this incident had a lot of comments. What you wrote here are the obvious things which anyone who knows anything about animal behavior can see and understand. I mean it, that Edno was offensive and siblings would have loved to be left alone, not willingly fighting against bigger opponent. It´s a no-brainer and alone nothing too interesting really. It happens all the time in wild, more dominant individual bullies other.
What I find interesting is, that despite facing such threat, neither of the siblings didn´t leave the place leaving other one to face the threat alone. Usually males fight and winner then mates with female. Twist here was the bond which siblings seemed to have and interesting thing is, that what kind of role it played in this incident or did it? And did Edno feel in some way, that if going full force against one, that he could be attacked by other? Usually males don´t need to worry about such while fighting another male.
There is now some material from two different sources and main story is, that Edno approached, but after some fight/aggressive encounters left. I showed Portuguese texts from guide who filmed video to two Brazilian people I know. Both gave translation, that siblings made Edno to run away even though he was much bigger than other male. I didn´t say it in the first place, because I wanted to see what kind of translations are offered from others and are those honest translations. That guide used some slang there, which my friends explained to me and obviously it was the reason why google translation couldn´t give proper translation to all text.
All in all, from these photos and two short clips, just as you said, can´t be seen too much. The most interesting part isn´t there and it would be the last minute or two and what happened there. Also this photographer said, that siblings "won the war". Even if they won "psychological warfare" by refusing to leave other one to face Edno alone and maybe confusing Edno in that way, it´s very interesting. Not it, that people repeat the obvious, that Edno was the biggest and strongest individual out of these three and at least in the beginning most confident and maybe even in the end too (anyone can see it easily), but still for some reason not confident enough to finish what it started. Or at least it looks like to be so, when reading what people who were there tell.
Hopefully more information and video footage comes up in future. A bit odd, that only two short clips now, I doubt that they couldn´t film it all.
What I said is indeed the obvious and so what?
in your post #187 you said ''These are wild animals, which aren´t known to be able to think like us'' isn't it the obvious too??
My first thought about the conflict when I didn't even know about the videos existence was based on a photographer's comment on Balam's post, the photographer said the young female fought Edno all the time, when I watched the videos it wasn't the case and the young male was as involved in the conflict as the female so I changed my mind on my opinion and as I said the youngsters making Edno run away was ''surprising and interesting'' meaning the siblings did a good job standing their ground but I still think if Edno really wanted it, that conflict could've been more intense for the siblings regardless if he was outnumbered, its my opinion its simple as that.
And there's no twist about the siblings bond here, jaguars specially relative ones can stick together and bond themselves as coalition for a while until they reach certain age they shall separate but their bond still stands as adults that some tolerate themselves to a certain degree, we got the youngsters coalition who just separated Bororo and Xando along with others Oreia and Grandão, Peter and Gage, if these jaguars together as youngsters felt cornered or threatened by an unknown offensive big one, their reaction could be running away but also I don't rule out they could fight back as a bond but most of the times they are aware enough to not mess with dominant jaguars so they will get confident first by avoiding these conflicts.
You also said in one of your previous posts that jaguars aren't used to these types of 2-1 conflict situations which is not completely true, these conflicts between jaguars occurs in some occasions obviously no where near as usual as lions but it still happen. The problem is that jaguars are the most elusive of the big cats and its not easy to catch up with these cats and projects who follow these animals don't show many jaguar interactions to the public, Onçafari got quite a few but for some reason won't show us.
The footage bellow is another 2-1 conflict situation amongst jaguars that took place in South Pantanal provided by CENAP/ICMBio. In the Pantanal with such high density of jaguars in the area situations like these happens.
*This image is copyright of its original author
And again I am not saying this happens ALL THE TIME but its not as unusual as some may think and most people don't know it cause its either isn't captured by cameras or aren't released to the public. Jaguars are the most elusive big cats for a reason.
and yes I agree about they could've filmed the whole thing on the Edno conflict.
(11-01-2020, 03:19 AM)Balam Wrote: @Dark Jaguar check the intraspecific conflicts thread, i posted two videos of the interaction. Overall I second everything you said.
The two siblings are only 15 months in age, probably just gained independence from their mother, Susanna female.
The dynamics involving the formation of coalitions by jaguars is extremely interesting and understudied. Jaguars remain, alongside snow leopards, the most understudied of the felids within the genus Panthera and interactions like this just keep showing how much we still have to know about them.
@Balam I didn't know about the videos thanks for letting me know.
Now that I saw the 2 videos and despite them being too short I see that Edno is clearly the one that is messing around with both over there, Edno is the confident cat on that situation, the siblings seems way more anxious and concerned about Edno's presence than otherwise, all the siblings can do is to get defensive and Edno is the one approaching them and pushing the fight and he is always the one striking and smacking them first whereas the siblings don't have another choice but to fight back the big male. Also as Edno calms down and stops a little bit with the aggressions you can see the whole enviornment also calms down since Edno is the trouble maker of that interaction and is the one starting the whole conflict over the defensive youngsters.
I think we cannot get into deep conclusions out of very few cut off seconds of video interactions and since it was said Edno got chased its surprising and interesting but I still don't think he was going all out on that interaction and by that outcome I can rule out the possibility of his mating intentions over the young female because if that was the case, the outcome of that encounter could've been way more intense.
Thats how I interpreted that situation in those short videos.
I add a bit here since this incident had a lot of comments. What you wrote here are the obvious things which anyone who knows anything about animal behavior can see and understand. I mean it, that Edno was offensive and siblings would have loved to be left alone, not willingly fighting against bigger opponent. It´s a no-brainer and alone nothing too interesting really. It happens all the time in wild, more dominant individual bullies other.
What I find interesting is, that despite facing such threat, neither of the siblings didn´t leave the place leaving other one to face the threat alone. Usually males fight and winner then mates with female. Twist here was the bond which siblings seemed to have and interesting thing is, that what kind of role it played in this incident or did it? And did Edno feel in some way, that if going full force against one, that he could be attacked by other? Usually males don´t need to worry about such while fighting another male.
There is now some material from two different sources and main story is, that Edno approached, but after some fight/aggressive encounters left. I showed Portuguese texts from guide who filmed video to two Brazilian people I know. Both gave translation, that siblings made Edno to run away even though he was much bigger than other male. I didn´t say it in the first place, because I wanted to see what kind of translations are offered from others and are those honest translations. That guide used some slang there, which my friends explained to me and obviously it was the reason why google translation couldn´t give proper translation to all text.
All in all, from these photos and two short clips, just as you said, can´t be seen too much. The most interesting part isn´t there and it would be the last minute or two and what happened there. Also this photographer said, that siblings "won the war". Even if they won "psychological warfare" by refusing to leave other one to face Edno alone and maybe confusing Edno in that way, it´s very interesting. Not it, that people repeat the obvious, that Edno was the biggest and strongest individual out of these three and at least in the beginning most confident and maybe even in the end too (anyone can see it easily), but still for some reason not confident enough to finish what it started. Or at least it looks like to be so, when reading what people who were there tell.
Hopefully more information and video footage comes up in future. A bit odd, that only two short clips now, I doubt that they couldn´t film it all.
What I said is indeed the obvious and so what?
in your post #187 you said ''These are wild animals, which aren´t known to be able to think like us'' isn't it the obvious too??
My first thought about the conflict when I didn't even know about the videos existence was based on a photographer's comment on Balam's post, the photographer said the young female fought Edno all the time, when I watched the videos it wasn't the case and the young male was as involved in the conflict as the female so I changed my mind on my opinion and as I said the youngsters making Edno run away was ''surprising and interesting'' meaning the siblings did a good job standing their ground but I still think if Edno really wanted it, that conflict could've been more intense for the siblings regardless if he was outnumbered, its my opinion its simple as that.
And there's no twist about the siblings bond here, jaguars specially relative ones can stick together and bond themselves as coalition for a while until they reach certain age they shall separate but their bond still stands as adults that some tolerate themselves to a certain degree, we got the youngsters coalition who just separated Bororo and Xando along with others Oreia and Grandão, Peter and Gage, if these jaguars together as youngsters felt cornered or threatened by an unknown offensive big one, their reaction could be running away but also I don't rule out they could fight back as a bond but most of the times they are aware enough to not mess with dominant jaguars so they will get confident first by avoiding these conflicts.
You also said in one of your previous posts that jaguars aren't used to these types of 2-1 conflict situations which is not completely true, these conflicts between jaguars occurs in some occasions obviously no where near as usual as lions but it still happen. The problem is that jaguars are the most elusive of the big cats and its not easy to catch up with these cats and projects who follow these animals don't show many jaguar interactions to the public, Onçafari got quite a few but for some reason won't show us.
The footage bellow is another 2-1 conflict situation amongst jaguars that took place in South Pantanal provided by CENAP/ICMBio. In the Pantanal with such high density of jaguars in the area situations like these happens.
*This image is copyright of its original author
And again I am not saying this happens ALL THE TIME but its not as unusual as some may think and most people don't know it cause its either isn't captured by cameras or aren't released to the public. Jaguars are the most elusive cats for a reason.
and yes I agree about they could've filmed the whole thing on the Edno conflict.
Now this discussion starts to go to the direction I was hoping to in the beginning :) And it´s discussing about it what happened there really and what might have been reason why Edno retreated as is suggested by the people who saw it. Not talking about obvious things only, I poked a bit on purpose there in hope to get discussion to this direction.
I´m interested about twists and here was that twist which isn´t seen often unless talking about lions and that is 2-1. There are some cases obviously, but I still dare to say that jaguars aren´t used to 2-1 situations so much. So it´s interesting thing to look closer it, that what kind of examples there are and how often young siblings hold their ground or do they. Pity that your clip is very short too and not showing more than a glimpse.
While lions are used to fight against more than one opponent it´s not easy for them either. So for less experienced to that kind of situations, like jaguars, it´s easy to think that even more difficult. And it could have some effect and explain why Edno was the one leaving in this latest case and making people who know jaguars surprised. I assume, that jaguar guides there know something. Most elusive, some say that leopards are but I guess that it´s more about preference and environment, in jungle environment both are elusive.
(11-01-2020, 03:19 AM)Balam Wrote: @Dark Jaguar check the intraspecific conflicts thread, i posted two videos of the interaction. Overall I second everything you said.
The two siblings are only 15 months in age, probably just gained independence from their mother, Susanna female.
The dynamics involving the formation of coalitions by jaguars is extremely interesting and understudied. Jaguars remain, alongside snow leopards, the most understudied of the felids within the genus Panthera and interactions like this just keep showing how much we still have to know about them.
@Balam I didn't know about the videos thanks for letting me know.
Now that I saw the 2 videos and despite them being too short I see that Edno is clearly the one that is messing around with both over there, Edno is the confident cat on that situation, the siblings seems way more anxious and concerned about Edno's presence than otherwise, all the siblings can do is to get defensive and Edno is the one approaching them and pushing the fight and he is always the one striking and smacking them first whereas the siblings don't have another choice but to fight back the big male. Also as Edno calms down and stops a little bit with the aggressions you can see the whole enviornment also calms down since Edno is the trouble maker of that interaction and is the one starting the whole conflict over the defensive youngsters.
I think we cannot get into deep conclusions out of very few cut off seconds of video interactions and since it was said Edno got chased its surprising and interesting but I still don't think he was going all out on that interaction and by that outcome I can rule out the possibility of his mating intentions over the young female because if that was the case, the outcome of that encounter could've been way more intense.
Thats how I interpreted that situation in those short videos.
I add a bit here since this incident had a lot of comments. What you wrote here are the obvious things which anyone who knows anything about animal behavior can see and understand. I mean it, that Edno was offensive and siblings would have loved to be left alone, not willingly fighting against bigger opponent. It´s a no-brainer and alone nothing too interesting really. It happens all the time in wild, more dominant individual bullies other.
What I find interesting is, that despite facing such threat, neither of the siblings didn´t leave the place leaving other one to face the threat alone. Usually males fight and winner then mates with female. Twist here was the bond which siblings seemed to have and interesting thing is, that what kind of role it played in this incident or did it? And did Edno feel in some way, that if going full force against one, that he could be attacked by other? Usually males don´t need to worry about such while fighting another male.
There is now some material from two different sources and main story is, that Edno approached, but after some fight/aggressive encounters left. I showed Portuguese texts from guide who filmed video to two Brazilian people I know. Both gave translation, that siblings made Edno to run away even though he was much bigger than other male. I didn´t say it in the first place, because I wanted to see what kind of translations are offered from others and are those honest translations. That guide used some slang there, which my friends explained to me and obviously it was the reason why google translation couldn´t give proper translation to all text.
All in all, from these photos and two short clips, just as you said, can´t be seen too much. The most interesting part isn´t there and it would be the last minute or two and what happened there. Also this photographer said, that siblings "won the war". Even if they won "psychological warfare" by refusing to leave other one to face Edno alone and maybe confusing Edno in that way, it´s very interesting. Not it, that people repeat the obvious, that Edno was the biggest and strongest individual out of these three and at least in the beginning most confident and maybe even in the end too (anyone can see it easily), but still for some reason not confident enough to finish what it started. Or at least it looks like to be so, when reading what people who were there tell.
Hopefully more information and video footage comes up in future. A bit odd, that only two short clips now, I doubt that they couldn´t film it all.
What I said is indeed the obvious and so what?
in your post #187 you said ''These are wild animals, which aren´t known to be able to think like us'' isn't it the obvious too??
My first thought about the conflict when I didn't even know about the videos existence was based on a photographer's comment on Balam's post, the photographer said the young female fought Edno all the time, when I watched the videos it wasn't the case and the young male was as involved in the conflict as the female so I changed my mind on my opinion and as I said the youngsters making Edno run away was ''surprising and interesting'' meaning the siblings did a good job standing their ground but I still think if Edno really wanted it, that conflict could've been more intense for the siblings regardless if he was outnumbered, its my opinion its simple as that.
And there's no twist about the siblings bond here, jaguars specially relative ones can stick together and bond themselves as coalition for a while until they reach certain age they shall separate but their bond still stands as adults that some tolerate themselves to a certain degree, we got the youngsters coalition who just separated Bororo and Xando along with others Oreia and Grandão, Peter and Gage, if these jaguars together as youngsters felt cornered or threatened by an unknown offensive big one, their reaction could be running away but also I don't rule out they could fight back as a bond but most of the times they are aware enough to not mess with dominant jaguars so they will get confident first by avoiding these conflicts.
You also said in one of your previous posts that jaguars aren't used to these types of 2-1 conflict situations which is not completely true, these conflicts between jaguars occurs in some occasions obviously no where near as usual as lions but it still happen. The problem is that jaguars are the most elusive of the big cats and its not easy to catch up with these cats and projects who follow these animals don't show many jaguar interactions to the public, Onçafari got quite a few but for some reason won't show us.
The footage bellow is another 2-1 conflict situation amongst jaguars that took place in South Pantanal provided by CENAP/ICMBio. In the Pantanal with such high density of jaguars in the area situations like these happens.
*This image is copyright of its original author
And again I am not saying this happens ALL THE TIME but its not as unusual as some may think and most people don't know it cause its either isn't captured by cameras or aren't released to the public. Jaguars are the most elusive cats for a reason.
and yes I agree about they could've filmed the whole thing on the Edno conflict.
Now this discussion starts to go to the direction I was hoping to in the beginning :) And it´s discussing about it what happened there really and what might have been reason why Edno retreated as is suggested by the people who saw it. Not talking about obvious things only, I poked a bit on purpose there in hope to get discussion to this direction.
I´m interested about twists and here was that twist which isn´t seen often unless talking about lions and that is 2-1. There are some cases obviously, but I still dare to say that jaguars aren´t used to 2-1 situations so much. So it´s interesting thing to look closer it, that what kind of examples there are and how often young siblings hold their ground or do they. Pity that your clip is very short too and not showing more than a glimpse.
While lions are used to fight against more than one opponent it´s not easy for them either. So for less experienced to that kind of situations, like jaguars, it´s easy to think that even more difficult. And it could have some effect and explain why Edno was the one leaving in this latest case and making people who know jaguars surprised. I assume, that jaguar guides there know something. Most elusive, some say that leopards are but I guess that it´s more about preference and environment, in jungle environment both are elusive.
The clip is short but yet long enough to prove my point and you do realise the video was cut off during the conflict right.
Its funny how you ''confidently'' claim to ''poke a bit'' and claim I said the obvious thing but at same time you also make sure to always emphasize the obvious bringing up lions like ''While lions are used to fight against more than one opponent it´s not easy for them either.'' as if I stated lions weren't able to do what you said just cause I mentioned the intraespecific conflicts of jaguars isn't as usual as lions haha. I already expected that kinda reaction.
My opinion regarding the Edno conflict still stands.
11-04-2020, 12:35 AM( This post was last modified: 11-04-2020, 01:12 AM by Rage2277 )
i don't see why jaguars not being used to or lions being used used to dealing with multiple opponents matters it isn't a fight the lone one will always lose anyway if both decide to go for it but youngsters will usually give way to adults even if they out number them as with lions and it's the same with other bigcats, though big lion baba yao tried to bully the younger salas boys that didn't go to good for him..either way edno made it clear he's the boss he didn't have to kill them.
(11-04-2020, 12:35 AM)Rage2277 Wrote: i don't see why jaguars not being used to or lions being used used to dealing with multiple opponents matters it isn't a fight the lone one will always lose anyway if both decide to go for it but youngsters will usually give way to adults even if they out number them as with lions and it's the same with other bigcats, though big lion baba yao tried to bully the younger salas boys that didn't go to good him..either way edno made it clear he's the boss he didn't have to kill them.
He's also proceeded to mate w/Luna and is now heavily visible while the youngsters have taken a backseat.
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(11-01-2020, 03:19 AM)Balam Wrote: @Dark Jaguar check the intraspecific conflicts thread, i posted two videos of the interaction. Overall I second everything you said.
The two siblings are only 15 months in age, probably just gained independence from their mother, Susanna female.
The dynamics involving the formation of coalitions by jaguars is extremely interesting and understudied. Jaguars remain, alongside snow leopards, the most understudied of the felids within the genus Panthera and interactions like this just keep showing how much we still have to know about them.
@Balam I didn't know about the videos thanks for letting me know.
Now that I saw the 2 videos and despite them being too short I see that Edno is clearly the one that is messing around with both over there, Edno is the confident cat on that situation, the siblings seems way more anxious and concerned about Edno's presence than otherwise, all the siblings can do is to get defensive and Edno is the one approaching them and pushing the fight and he is always the one striking and smacking them first whereas the siblings don't have another choice but to fight back the big male. Also as Edno calms down and stops a little bit with the aggressions you can see the whole enviornment also calms down since Edno is the trouble maker of that interaction and is the one starting the whole conflict over the defensive youngsters.
I think we cannot get into deep conclusions out of very few cut off seconds of video interactions and since it was said Edno got chased its surprising and interesting but I still don't think he was going all out on that interaction and by that outcome I can rule out the possibility of his mating intentions over the young female because if that was the case, the outcome of that encounter could've been way more intense.
Thats how I interpreted that situation in those short videos.
I add a bit here since this incident had a lot of comments. What you wrote here are the obvious things which anyone who knows anything about animal behavior can see and understand. I mean it, that Edno was offensive and siblings would have loved to be left alone, not willingly fighting against bigger opponent. It´s a no-brainer and alone nothing too interesting really. It happens all the time in wild, more dominant individual bullies other.
What I find interesting is, that despite facing such threat, neither of the siblings didn´t leave the place leaving other one to face the threat alone. Usually males fight and winner then mates with female. Twist here was the bond which siblings seemed to have and interesting thing is, that what kind of role it played in this incident or did it? And did Edno feel in some way, that if going full force against one, that he could be attacked by other? Usually males don´t need to worry about such while fighting another male.
There is now some material from two different sources and main story is, that Edno approached, but after some fight/aggressive encounters left. I showed Portuguese texts from guide who filmed video to two Brazilian people I know. Both gave translation, that siblings made Edno to run away even though he was much bigger than other male. I didn´t say it in the first place, because I wanted to see what kind of translations are offered from others and are those honest translations. That guide used some slang there, which my friends explained to me and obviously it was the reason why google translation couldn´t give proper translation to all text.
All in all, from these photos and two short clips, just as you said, can´t be seen too much. The most interesting part isn´t there and it would be the last minute or two and what happened there. Also this photographer said, that siblings "won the war". Even if they won "psychological warfare" by refusing to leave other one to face Edno alone and maybe confusing Edno in that way, it´s very interesting. Not it, that people repeat the obvious, that Edno was the biggest and strongest individual out of these three and at least in the beginning most confident and maybe even in the end too (anyone can see it easily), but still for some reason not confident enough to finish what it started. Or at least it looks like to be so, when reading what people who were there tell.
Hopefully more information and video footage comes up in future. A bit odd, that only two short clips now, I doubt that they couldn´t film it all.
What I said is indeed the obvious and so what?
in your post #187 you said ''These are wild animals, which aren´t known to be able to think like us'' isn't it the obvious too??
My first thought about the conflict when I didn't even know about the videos existence was based on a photographer's comment on Balam's post, the photographer said the young female fought Edno all the time, when I watched the videos it wasn't the case and the young male was as involved in the conflict as the female so I changed my mind on my opinion and as I said the youngsters making Edno run away was ''surprising and interesting'' meaning the siblings did a good job standing their ground but I still think if Edno really wanted it, that conflict could've been more intense for the siblings regardless if he was outnumbered, its my opinion its simple as that.
And there's no twist about the siblings bond here, jaguars specially relative ones can stick together and bond themselves as coalition for a while until they reach certain age they shall separate but their bond still stands as adults that some tolerate themselves to a certain degree, we got the youngsters coalition who just separated Bororo and Xando along with others Oreia and Grandão, Peter and Gage, if these jaguars together as youngsters felt cornered or threatened by an unknown offensive big one, their reaction could be running away but also I don't rule out they could fight back as a bond but most of the times they are aware enough to not mess with dominant jaguars so they will get confident first by avoiding these conflicts.
You also said in one of your previous posts that jaguars aren't used to these types of 2-1 conflict situations which is not completely true, these conflicts between jaguars occurs in some occasions obviously no where near as usual as lions but it still happen. The problem is that jaguars are the most elusive of the big cats and its not easy to catch up with these cats and projects who follow these animals don't show many jaguar interactions to the public, Onçafari got quite a few but for some reason won't show us.
The footage bellow is another 2-1 conflict situation amongst jaguars that took place in South Pantanal provided by CENAP/ICMBio. In the Pantanal with such high density of jaguars in the area situations like these happens.
*This image is copyright of its original author
And again I am not saying this happens ALL THE TIME but its not as unusual as some may think and most people don't know it cause its either isn't captured by cameras or aren't released to the public. Jaguars are the most elusive cats for a reason.
and yes I agree about they could've filmed the whole thing on the Edno conflict.
Now this discussion starts to go to the direction I was hoping to in the beginning :) And it´s discussing about it what happened there really and what might have been reason why Edno retreated as is suggested by the people who saw it. Not talking about obvious things only, I poked a bit on purpose there in hope to get discussion to this direction.
I´m interested about twists and here was that twist which isn´t seen often unless talking about lions and that is 2-1. There are some cases obviously, but I still dare to say that jaguars aren´t used to 2-1 situations so much. So it´s interesting thing to look closer it, that what kind of examples there are and how often young siblings hold their ground or do they. Pity that your clip is very short too and not showing more than a glimpse.
While lions are used to fight against more than one opponent it´s not easy for them either. So for less experienced to that kind of situations, like jaguars, it´s easy to think that even more difficult. And it could have some effect and explain why Edno was the one leaving in this latest case and making people who know jaguars surprised. I assume, that jaguar guides there know something. Most elusive, some say that leopards are but I guess that it´s more about preference and environment, in jungle environment both are elusive.
The clip is short but yet long enough to prove my point and you do realise the video was cut off during the conflict right.
Its funny how you ''confidently'' claim to ''poke a bit'' and claim I said the obvious thing but at same time you also make sure to always emphasize the obvious bringing up lions like ''While lions are used to fight against more than one opponent it´s not easy for them either.'' as if I stated lions weren't able to do what you said just cause I mentioned the intraespecific conflicts of jaguars isn't as usual as lions haha. I already expected that kinda reaction.
My opinion regarding the Edno conflict still stands.
Yes, I poked and nice that now some discussion about that unexpected outcome of this incident. What comes to that video you shared, is there any longer one from it? It would be very interesting to see more from it too. The more footage from other same kind of incidents might open up a bit what might have happened in this "siblings-Edno" incident.
Jaguars of Brazil - Dynamics,Lifestyle,Datas,Studies,Reports
