Tigers of Ranthambore & Western India Landscape

[Spalea]

Sachin Rai: " This was moments after the picture I posted earlier. She was calling out to her cubs while approaching them. Soon one of the cubs jumped on her and pinned her down while the other came running at them. She had made a kill and had come to pick them up. This was 5 years ago in Ranthambhore, India. "

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[Spalea]

Sachin Rai: " Ever stopped to smell some flowers?

Ok, there is no flower but that plant will flower someday "

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[Scout]

Singhsth, zone 2. He seems pretty aggressive and dominant, but I once consulted a guide. He said the biggest and most dominant (in the core zones) is Chirico (T86)

   

Krishna, zone 4 

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[Rishi]

(09-30-2020, 07:57 PM)Scout Wrote: Singhsth, zone 2. He seems pretty aggressive and dominant, but I once consulted a guide. He said the biggest and most dominant (in the core zones) is Chirico (T86).

Quite likely. Singsth is solidly built but apparently not large, little larger than most tigress.

Chirico on the other hand is not only 6-7 years old now, but his size could only be matched by the late T-28 & T-42... or so I'm told.

@sanketgadkari14

*This image is copyright of its original author

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[Scout]

(09-30-2020, 09:26 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(09-30-2020, 07:57 PM)Scout Wrote: Singhsth, zone 2. He seems pretty aggressive and dominant, but I once consulted a guide. He said the biggest and most dominant (in the core zones) is Chirico (T86).

Quite likely. Singsth is solidly built but apparently not large, little larger than most tigress.

Chirico on the other hand is not only 6-7 years old now, but his size could only be matched by the late T-28 & T-42... or so I'm told.

@sanketgadkari14

*This image is copyright of its original author

That seems correct. Singsth has a stocky build but the frame is not big, around average I would say. 

And I have seen Star (rip) from really close distance, big for sure. Most striking thing was that he was really tall 

People say Ustad (240kgs) wasnt the biggest, and that Star was bigger. But it seems (maybe its just me, and I can be wrong) that some Ranthambore tigers said to be big arent really heavily built for their frame size. They seem to be very slightly slender when comparing to some particular populations. And they also appear to be tall among tiger populations (can be because of their build). 

Same goes for Fateh, Kumbh, Zaalim (rip) and maybe Chirico. Ustad is a bit different imo, he is big in frame and has a good build. Reply

[Pckts]

(09-30-2020, 10:12 PM)Scout Wrote:

(09-30-2020, 09:26 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(09-30-2020, 07:57 PM)Scout Wrote: Singhsth, zone 2. He seems pretty aggressive and dominant, but I once consulted a guide. He said the biggest and most dominant (in the core zones) is Chirico (T86).

Quite likely. Singsth is solidly built but apparently not large, little larger than most tigress.

Chirico on the other hand is not only 6-7 years old now, but his size could only be matched by the late T-28 & T-42... or so I'm told.

@sanketgadkari14

*This image is copyright of its original author

That seems correct. Singsth has a stocky build but the frame is not big, around average I would say. 

And I have seen Star (rip) from really close distance, big for sure. Most striking thing was that he was really tall 

People say Ustad (240kgs) wasnt the biggest, and that Star was bigger. But it seems (maybe its just me, and I can be wrong) that some Ranthambore tigers said to be big arent really heavily built for their frame size. They seem to be very slightly slender when comparing to some particular populations. And they also appear to be tall among tiger populations (can be because of their build). 

Same goes for Fateh, Kumbh, Zaalim (rip) and maybe Chirico. Ustad is a bit different imo, he is big in frame and has a good build.

This seems to be the consensus for Ranthambore males.
Probably due the lack of large bovine compared to other parks. I'd assume its also hotter there than other C. Indian parks too. Reply

[Ashutosh]

@Pckts, Indochinese tigers have a prey base of Gaurs and Bantengs and they also live in an environment which is cooler on average than Ranthambore males. But, Ranthambore males are bigger and heavier. It’s not always about the size of prey, afterall majority of Terai tigers don’t have any wild bovine and they are bigger than most tigers with better prey base.

I can’t id this male from Ranthambore, but he has a decent frame. @Rage2277 can you help out id this one?

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[Pckts]

(10-01-2020, 12:10 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: @Pckts, Indochinese tigers have a prey base of Gaurs and Bantengs and they also live in an environment which is cooler on average than Ranthambore males. But, Ranthambore males are bigger and heavier. It’s not always about the size of prey, afterall majority of Terai tigers don’t have any wild bovine and they are bigger than most tigers with better prey base.

I can’t id this male from Ranthambore, but he has a decent frame. @Rage2277 can you help out id this one?

Indochinese numbers are severely diminished, the forest is also very dense and populations completely fragmented. We still have some large alleged Vietnam tiger sizes if i remember correctly as well as other indochinese Tigers from days past.. Terai Tigers still have Gaur or Waterbuffalo depending on the location along with Elephant, Rhino and cooler Temps.

The correlation of large ungulates and, prey density, cooler Temps and more rain equating to larger cats is strong. Reply

[Ashutosh]

@Pckts, there are barely any rhinos in Terai apart from Chitwan to constitute a prey base (there is probably 1 attack a year in rest of the parks). And, as for elephants, in Corbett where 240 tigers live, there were 13 elephant kills in a 5 year period (mostly juveniles). That is just such a minuscule proportion to form a prey base. 

Not to mention, the Indochinese tigers also interact with elephants (and probably attack them too). The ungulate theory is sound but you were talking about bovines which are anyway  less sparse than other ungulates. And, as you see from Indian side of Terai, even without bovines but an abundance of other ungulates, the size doesn’t seem to be affected of tigers.

Panna hasn’t had any bovines in a long time, yet, you have had big tigers come out from there. And, as for rains and cooler temperatures, the Indochinese tiger gets both those better than Ranthambore. Reply

[Rage2277]

not sure who this one is though it's clearly a sub looks like one of krishna's cubs @Ashutosh Reply

[Pckts]

(10-01-2020, 02:47 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: @Pckts, there are barely any rhinos in Terai apart from Chitwan to constitute a prey base (there is probably 1 attack a year in rest of the parks). And, as for elephants, in Corbett where 240 tigers live, there were 13 elephant kills in a 5 year period (mostly juveniles). That is just such a minuscule proportion to form a prey base. 

Not to mention, the Indochinese tigers also interact with elephants (and probably attack them too). The ungulate theory is sound but you were talking about bovines which are anyway  less sparse than other ungulates. And, as you see from Indian side of Terai, even without bovines but an abundance of other ungulates, the size doesn’t seem to be affected of tigers.

Panna hasn’t had any bovines in a long time, yet, you have had big tigers come out from there. And, as for rains and cooler temperatures, the Indochinese tiger gets both those better than Ranthambore.

Documented kills are the smallest portion of actual kills. Of the massive size of these parks, kills not only habe to occur during the tourism season but they must also 
occur within range of the few roads tourists and park rangers frequent. Mahouts have better chances but they aren't reporting to guides.

The Terai Tigers still have access to larger bovines, rhino and elephanr, all of which aren't available in Ranthambore. Indochinese Tigers do to but again, their numbers are so dimisnished that who knows what size they actually could attain with proper protection and corridors.
The landscape for indochinese tigers is also very different, the dense vegetation I would imagine doesn't allow large herds of big bovines to congregate they way they do in India and would also make it harder for a big cat to travel.

Panna Tigers are all pretty much translocated at this point, correct? They also don't have the same definition you see in other C. Indian Tigers, they seem a bit softer in frame, possibly due to cattle predation although Ranthambore Tigers can be cattle killers as well yet dont show the same lack of definition. This may be due to the heat difference though. Reply

[Rishi]

(09-30-2020, 10:12 PM)Scout Wrote: That seems correct. Singsth has a stocky build but the frame is not big, around average I would say. 

And I have seen Star (rip) from really close distance, big for sure. Most striking thing was that he was really tall 

People say Ustad (240kgs) wasnt the biggest, and that Star was bigger. But it seems (maybe its just me, and I can be wrong) that some Ranthambore tigers said to be big arent really heavily built for their frame size. They seem to be very slightly slender when comparing to some particular populations. And they also appear to be tall among tiger populations (can be because of their build). 

Same goes for Fateh, Kumbh, Zaalim (rip) and maybe Chirico. Ustad is a bit different imo, he is big in frame and has a good build.

This is nice for comparison.

T-57 with T-39...

*This image is copyright of its original author

...and T-86 with T-84.

*This image is copyright of its original author

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[Ashutosh]

@Pckts, you are thinking of Indochinese tigers in Myanmar which live in those dense almost steamy rainforests very similar to Sumatra and those landscapes form the western edge of Indochinese territory. In Thailand, Indochinese tigers live in areas with forests, grassland, shrubland, a mix of central India and Manas.

This is a photo of gaur herd from Khao Phaeng Ma National Park.

   

A mix of Gaur and Banteng herd in Kui Buri National Park where Indochinese tigers are found as well.

   

That is bigger than any gaur herd in India!

And, Panna tigers I was referencing to was the older ones, Madla, Julie, Hairyfoot. None of them had access to large ungulates yet their sizes weren’t affected. Reply

[Pckts]

(10-01-2020, 02:37 PM)Ashutosh Wrote: @Pckts, you are thinking of Indochinese tigers in Myanmar which live in those dense almost steamy rainforests very similar to Sumatra and those landscapes form the western edge of Indochinese territory. In Thailand, Indochinese tigers live in areas with forests, grassland, shrubland, a mix of central India and Manas.

This is a photo of gaur herd from Khao Phaeng Ma National Park.



A mix of Gaur and Banteng herd in Kui Buri National Park where Indochinese tigers are found as well.



That is bigger than any gaur herd in India!

And, Panna tigers I was referencing to was the older ones, Madla, Julie, Hairyfoot. None of them had access to large ungulates yet their sizes weren’t affected.

I've been to Thailand, there may be pockets of clearings but the forests are extremely dense and the darkest green I've ever seen. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Gaur are in a massive decline like most other S.E. Asian Animals.
This is the main forest Complex where minimal Gaur are found in Thailand
Dong Phayayen – Khao Yai Forest Complex

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

In Kuiburi, I'm sure if they captured Tigers we'd see their weights larger than other Indochinese Tigers as well but since Indochinese Tigers are almost never captured we have minimal weights and data in recent times.

And I saw massive Gaur Herds in Kanha, tough to say how many but there were too many to count but the difference is that Tiger density and population is much higher in India compared to Indochinese population.

In regards to Madla or Hairyfoot, all we can go off of is Madla which is a single specimen.
Not nearly enough for an accurate sample size and Panna is cooler than Ranthambore, correct?
You also have a large supply of Cattle being killed in Panna as well.

The point is, that when things are equal it's going to be the place with Cooler Temps, larger Prey and more biomass that contributes to the bigger cats. Kaziranga is the best example imo: Cool Temps, lots of Rain, large density of big herbivores = highest density of Tigers and probably the biggest cats on earth. Reply

[Scout]

Even Kumbh seems to be much bigger compared to Singhsth.

The pic of Singhsth and Noor that Rishi posted -

   

A pic of Kumbha and Noor - 

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