There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
I moved some latest postings from wild lion weight thread to here, because paw swipes fit better here.
I linked a source from leading animal experts of Finland and what they have observed and tell. I leave it to people to think who have better competence then, I know who I believe as I said. But if people want to debate, by all means.
(09-21-2020, 08:46 PM)Shadow Wrote: I moved some latest postings from wild lion weight thread to here, because paw swipes fit better here.
I linked a source from leading animal experts of Finland and what they have observed and tell. I leave it to people to think who have better competence then, I know who I believe as I said. But if people want to debate, by all means.
my post also was in regards to weights posted, can you move mine back there as well?
09-21-2020, 08:53 PM( This post was last modified: 09-21-2020, 09:05 PM by Shadow )
One concrete example from Finland and zoo. An approximately 300 kg (old male, named Palle-Jooseppi) bear killed a smaller, approximately 100 kg bear (young female, named Milla) with one paw srike to the head. It broke the skull of the smaller bear.
Article is in Finnish, but with google translator everyone should be able to read it quite ok.
(09-21-2020, 08:53 PM)Shadow Wrote: One concrete example from Finland and zoo. An approximately 300 kg (old male, named Palle-Jooseppi) bear killed a smaller, approximately 100 kg bear (young female, named Milla) with one paw srike to the head. It broke the skull of the smaller bear.
Article is in Finnish, but with google translator everyone should be able to read it quite ok.
And here lies the problem....
We all know that bears don't just give each other a smack and call it a day, these animals fought and the smaller female was killed. It could of had it's skull crushed from a strike, a bite, body weight pressure, etc.
And lastly is that we're talking about an animal that is 3 times the size of another.
To put it in human terms, that's a 200lb man vs a 66 lb 9 year old male child.
09-22-2020, 12:22 AM( This post was last modified: 09-22-2020, 12:39 AM by Shadow )
(09-21-2020, 11:39 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(09-21-2020, 08:53 PM)Shadow Wrote: One concrete example from Finland and zoo. An approximately 300 kg (old male, named Palle-Jooseppi) bear killed a smaller, approximately 100 kg bear (young female, named Milla) with one paw srike to the head. It broke the skull of the smaller bear.
Article is in Finnish, but with google translator everyone should be able to read it quite ok.
And here lies the problem....
We all know that bears don't just give each other a smack and call it a day, these animals fought and the smaller female was killed. It could of had it's skull crushed from a strike, a bite, body weight pressure, etc.
And lastly is that we're talking about an animal that is 3 times the size of another.
To put it in human terms, that's a 200lb man vs a 66 lb 9 year old male child.
I do know, that bears can end a fight with one paw strike with smaller animal. If you and some others don´t know it, it´s something else. In that article zoo staff say clearly, that bear was killed by paw strike and I believe it, because bear experts tell, that bears can kill with paw strike. Your or mine competence is nowhere near the level of the people behind that site, I linked. http://www.largecarnivores.fi/front-page.html That information there isn´t written based on some wild guesses.
You don´t need to believe anything you read, it´s your business, I don´t mind. I know what I believe and everyone else can make up their mind. I don´t write "we", because I don´t know what others think or what they think they know. But when zoo here informs, that bear broke skull of another bear with paw strike, it´s not a wild guess. I trust to that information also, because they have no reason to lie.
(09-21-2020, 08:53 PM)Shadow Wrote: One concrete example from Finland and zoo. An approximately 300 kg (old male, named Palle-Jooseppi) bear killed a smaller, approximately 100 kg bear (young female, named Milla) with one paw srike to the head. It broke the skull of the smaller bear.
Article is in Finnish, but with google translator everyone should be able to read it quite ok.
And here lies the problem....
We all know that bears don't just give each other a smack and call it a day, these animals fought and the smaller female was killed. It could of had it's skull crushed from a strike, a bite, body weight pressure, etc.
And lastly is that we're talking about an animal that is 3 times the size of another.
To put it in human terms, that's a 200lb man vs a 66 lb 9 year old male child.
I do know, that bears can end a fight with one paw strike with smaller animal. If you and some others don´t know it, it´s something else. In that article zoo staff say clearly, that bear was killed by paw strike and I believe it, because bear experts tell, that bears can kill with paw strike. Your or mine competence is nowhere near the level of the people behind that site, I linked. http://www.largecarnivores.fi/front-page.html That information there isn´t written based on some wild guesses.
You don´t need to believe anything you read, it´s your business, I don´t mind. I know what I believe and everyone else can make up their mind. I don´t write "we", because I don´t know what others think or what they think they know. But when zoo here informs, that bear broke skull of another bear with paw strike, it´s not a wild guess. I trust to that information also, because they have no reason to lie.
And these "bear experts" have actual experience seeing a bear kill another animal with a paw strike?
The information written there is based off of access to the same information that any of us have. Are you so willing to accept this as fact but question Rabin Sharma when he says the Rhino was a sub adult and killed by a Tiger?
Or question a weight provided by hunters or the Guinness Tiger?
And like you, I'm not writing "we" I'm responding to a post you used in a discussion regarding big cats/bears breaking bones with one paw swipe. And once again, I never said they were lying I said that how can anyone know if it's a swipe, bite or wrestling from the interaction. Zoo's post wrong info or vague info all the time, being realistic, a fight isn't a swipe and it's done nor does a Big Cat/Bear just stop after delivering a single blow. When they are intent on killing, they make sure the job is done.
The following 1 user Likes Pckts's post:1 user Likes Pckts's post • Rage2277
(09-21-2020, 08:53 PM)Shadow Wrote: One concrete example from Finland and zoo. An approximately 300 kg (old male, named Palle-Jooseppi) bear killed a smaller, approximately 100 kg bear (young female, named Milla) with one paw srike to the head. It broke the skull of the smaller bear.
Article is in Finnish, but with google translator everyone should be able to read it quite ok.
And here lies the problem....
We all know that bears don't just give each other a smack and call it a day, these animals fought and the smaller female was killed. It could of had it's skull crushed from a strike, a bite, body weight pressure, etc.
And lastly is that we're talking about an animal that is 3 times the size of another.
To put it in human terms, that's a 200lb man vs a 66 lb 9 year old male child.
I do know, that bears can end a fight with one paw strike with smaller animal. If you and some others don´t know it, it´s something else. In that article zoo staff say clearly, that bear was killed by paw strike and I believe it, because bear experts tell, that bears can kill with paw strike. Your or mine competence is nowhere near the level of the people behind that site, I linked. http://www.largecarnivores.fi/front-page.html That information there isn´t written based on some wild guesses.
You don´t need to believe anything you read, it´s your business, I don´t mind. I know what I believe and everyone else can make up their mind. I don´t write "we", because I don´t know what others think or what they think they know. But when zoo here informs, that bear broke skull of another bear with paw strike, it´s not a wild guess. I trust to that information also, because they have no reason to lie.
And these "bear experts" have actual experience seeing a bear kill another animal with a paw strike?
The information written there is based off of access to the same information that any of us have. Are you so willing to accept this as fact but question Rabin Sharma when he says the Rhino was a sub adult and killed by a Tiger?
Or question a weight provided by hunters or the Guinness Tiger?
And like you, I'm not writing "we" I'm responding to a post you used in a discussion regarding big cats/bears breaking bones with one paw swipe. And once again, I never said they were lying I said that how can anyone know if it's a swipe, bite or wrestling from the interaction. Zoo's post wrong info or vague info all the time, being realistic, a fight isn't a swipe and it's done nor does a Big Cat/Bear just stop after delivering a single blow. When they are intent on killing, they make sure the job is done.
As I said, these people are experts unlike you or I. And they don´t write things lightly. When there is written, that a bear kill prey also with paw strike, it´s not based on some guess and only one case. I trust to Finnish officials more than to many others, information is not only from some hunters etc. And also here hunters aren´t trophy hunters. There is no need to exaggerate, like it can be when wanting to get name to some book. I don´t trust to big game hunters ( "good old times" Africa/Asia) at all what comes to weights or measurements, I think, that I have made it quite clear.
Then again what comes to India, many people suspect all the time, that poaching is covered up by different kind of claims. For instance that poached rhino was killed by a tiger or poached tiger killed by a wild boar. So it looks like, that many people have trust issues.
I trust to officials here in Finland as much as I trust to people like Miquelle, Karanth, Schaller and others, who I consider objective. We don´t have here reasons for people to cover up for instance how some moose or deer was killed. Not quite the same, when talking about very endangered animals or trophy hunters.
Anyway, as said. Here experts say in very clear way, that bears kill also with paw swipe. You don´t need to believe it, of course not. I do believe it and anyone interested can read that information, it´s from most respected wildlife experts from Finland. I think, that I have said how I see and why now clear enough. I just pointed out, that this information comes from animal experts.
(09-21-2020, 08:53 PM)Shadow Wrote: One concrete example from Finland and zoo. An approximately 300 kg (old male, named Palle-Jooseppi) bear killed a smaller, approximately 100 kg bear (young female, named Milla) with one paw srike to the head. It broke the skull of the smaller bear.
Article is in Finnish, but with google translator everyone should be able to read it quite ok.
And here lies the problem....
We all know that bears don't just give each other a smack and call it a day, these animals fought and the smaller female was killed. It could of had it's skull crushed from a strike, a bite, body weight pressure, etc.
And lastly is that we're talking about an animal that is 3 times the size of another.
To put it in human terms, that's a 200lb man vs a 66 lb 9 year old male child.
I do know, that bears can end a fight with one paw strike with smaller animal. If you and some others don´t know it, it´s something else. In that article zoo staff say clearly, that bear was killed by paw strike and I believe it, because bear experts tell, that bears can kill with paw strike. Your or mine competence is nowhere near the level of the people behind that site, I linked. http://www.largecarnivores.fi/front-page.html That information there isn´t written based on some wild guesses.
You don´t need to believe anything you read, it´s your business, I don´t mind. I know what I believe and everyone else can make up their mind. I don´t write "we", because I don´t know what others think or what they think they know. But when zoo here informs, that bear broke skull of another bear with paw strike, it´s not a wild guess. I trust to that information also, because they have no reason to lie.
And these "bear experts" have actual experience seeing a bear kill another animal with a paw strike?
The information written there is based off of access to the same information that any of us have. Are you so willing to accept this as fact but question Rabin Sharma when he says the Rhino was a sub adult and killed by a Tiger?
Or question a weight provided by hunters or the Guinness Tiger?
And like you, I'm not writing "we" I'm responding to a post you used in a discussion regarding big cats/bears breaking bones with one paw swipe. And once again, I never said they were lying I said that how can anyone know if it's a swipe, bite or wrestling from the interaction. Zoo's post wrong info or vague info all the time, being realistic, a fight isn't a swipe and it's done nor does a Big Cat/Bear just stop after delivering a single blow. When they are intent on killing, they make sure the job is done.
As I said, these people are experts unlike you or I. And they don´t write things lightly. When there is written, that a bear kill prey also with paw strike, it´s not based on some guess and only one case. I trust to Finnish officials more than to many others, information is not only from some hunters etc. And also here hunters aren´t trophy hunters. There is no need to exaggerate, like it can be when wanting to get name to some book. I don´t trust to big game hunters ( "good old times" Africa/Asia) at all what comes to weights or measurements, I think, that I have made it quite clear.
Then again what comes to India, many people suspect all the time, that poaching is covered up by different kind of claims. For instance that poached rhino was killed by a tiger or poached tiger killed by a wild boar. So it looks like, that many people have trust issues.
I trust to officials here in Finland as much as I trust to people like Miquelle, Karanth, Schaller and others, who I consider objective. We don´t have here reasons for people to cover up for instance how some moose or deer was killed. Not quite the same, when talking about very endangered animals or trophy hunters.
Anyway, as said. Here experts say in very clear way, that bears kill also with paw swipe. You don´t need to believe it, of course not. I do believe it and anyone interested can read that information, it´s from most respected wildlife experts from Finland. I think, that I have said how I see and why now clear enough. I just pointed out, that this information comes from animal experts.
Of course it's based off a guess, they've never seen it done so. Zoologist or Biologist are not anatomist, they're making assumptions based off information they've read. If they have field work and have seen it done then that information would be provided. And it's very easy to disregard trophy hunters as unreliable but the fact is that they are hunting for the purpose of measurements and generally they have far more experience going after large game compared to other hunters. Some of the best information we have is from hunters of the past, in fact some of the most detailed information we may ever see came from those hunters.
Comparing Karanth or Schaller to this excerpt is apples to oranges. They preformed case studies while the blanket statement isn't based off prey preference and kill data, it's not like you're taking Karanth's study and Comparing it to a similar study on Finish bear prey's cause of death.
The following 1 user Likes Pckts's post:1 user Likes Pckts's post • Rage2277
(09-21-2020, 08:53 PM)Shadow Wrote: One concrete example from Finland and zoo. An approximately 300 kg (old male, named Palle-Jooseppi) bear killed a smaller, approximately 100 kg bear (young female, named Milla) with one paw srike to the head. It broke the skull of the smaller bear.
Article is in Finnish, but with google translator everyone should be able to read it quite ok.
And here lies the problem....
We all know that bears don't just give each other a smack and call it a day, these animals fought and the smaller female was killed. It could of had it's skull crushed from a strike, a bite, body weight pressure, etc.
And lastly is that we're talking about an animal that is 3 times the size of another.
To put it in human terms, that's a 200lb man vs a 66 lb 9 year old male child.
I do know, that bears can end a fight with one paw strike with smaller animal. If you and some others don´t know it, it´s something else. In that article zoo staff say clearly, that bear was killed by paw strike and I believe it, because bear experts tell, that bears can kill with paw strike. Your or mine competence is nowhere near the level of the people behind that site, I linked. http://www.largecarnivores.fi/front-page.html That information there isn´t written based on some wild guesses.
You don´t need to believe anything you read, it´s your business, I don´t mind. I know what I believe and everyone else can make up their mind. I don´t write "we", because I don´t know what others think or what they think they know. But when zoo here informs, that bear broke skull of another bear with paw strike, it´s not a wild guess. I trust to that information also, because they have no reason to lie.
And these "bear experts" have actual experience seeing a bear kill another animal with a paw strike?
The information written there is based off of access to the same information that any of us have. Are you so willing to accept this as fact but question Rabin Sharma when he says the Rhino was a sub adult and killed by a Tiger?
Or question a weight provided by hunters or the Guinness Tiger?
And like you, I'm not writing "we" I'm responding to a post you used in a discussion regarding big cats/bears breaking bones with one paw swipe. And once again, I never said they were lying I said that how can anyone know if it's a swipe, bite or wrestling from the interaction. Zoo's post wrong info or vague info all the time, being realistic, a fight isn't a swipe and it's done nor does a Big Cat/Bear just stop after delivering a single blow. When they are intent on killing, they make sure the job is done.
As I said, these people are experts unlike you or I. And they don´t write things lightly. When there is written, that a bear kill prey also with paw strike, it´s not based on some guess and only one case. I trust to Finnish officials more than to many others, information is not only from some hunters etc. And also here hunters aren´t trophy hunters. There is no need to exaggerate, like it can be when wanting to get name to some book. I don´t trust to big game hunters ( "good old times" Africa/Asia) at all what comes to weights or measurements, I think, that I have made it quite clear.
Then again what comes to India, many people suspect all the time, that poaching is covered up by different kind of claims. For instance that poached rhino was killed by a tiger or poached tiger killed by a wild boar. So it looks like, that many people have trust issues.
I trust to officials here in Finland as much as I trust to people like Miquelle, Karanth, Schaller and others, who I consider objective. We don´t have here reasons for people to cover up for instance how some moose or deer was killed. Not quite the same, when talking about very endangered animals or trophy hunters.
Anyway, as said. Here experts say in very clear way, that bears kill also with paw swipe. You don´t need to believe it, of course not. I do believe it and anyone interested can read that information, it´s from most respected wildlife experts from Finland. I think, that I have said how I see and why now clear enough. I just pointed out, that this information comes from animal experts.
Of course it's based off a guess, they've never seen it done so. Zoologist or Biologist are not anatomist, they're making assumptions based off information they've read. If they have field work and have seen it done then that information would be provided. And it's very easy to disregard trophy hunters as unreliable but the fact is that they are hunting for the purpose of measurements and generally they have far more experience going after large game compared to other hunters. Some of the best information we have is from hunters of the past, in fact some of the most detailed information we may ever see came from those hunters.
Comparing Karanth or Schaller to this excerpt is apples to oranges. They preformed case studies while the blanket statement isn't based off prey preference and kill data, it's not like you're taking Karanth's study and Comparing it to a similar study on Finish bear prey's cause of death.
Your opinion is clear, I have nothing to add or change to what I already wrote so it´s clear too :)
