Comparing big cats - differences/changes with time

[epaiva]

(08-09-2020, 05:43 PM)Balam Wrote: It doesn't matter because I am not using recent weights to determine their size, the current population estimation of Orinoco crocodiles in the wild is at around 250 individuals only, they have been heavily hunted and their genetic pool and therefore size has suffered as a result. To determine their regular interactions with jaguars then one has to study their historical sizes and size potential, where they surpass anything registered by a Sudarbans saltwater crocodile with ease. Actually, recent measurements for Orinoco crocodiles in captivity and those released into the wild haven't been performed, but I wouldn't be surprised if those are already surpassing 5 meters in length, even @epaiva recorded this video of an Orinoco crocodiles of about 5 meters in length, he can reiterate that himself:

No mugger, regardless of how much of an outlier it might be, is going to outsize a large Orinoco crocodile. And I'm not speaking of other crocodile populations, in specifically mentioning Sundarbans, the sizes of the crocodiles in surrounding regions is irrelevant.

You are right no Mugger will grow close to the average size of Orinoco Crocodiles, you can find pictures videos and Information of Orinoco Crocodiles here in Wildfact 
@Balam
@Ashutosh Reply

[Balam]

(08-09-2020, 07:42 PM)Ashutosh Wrote: @Balam, and that exactly is the issue. You are comparing the historical size of orinoco crocs to present size of Sundarbans saltwater crocs . As for hunting, saltwater crocs in India were hunted just as brutally as orinoco crocs (they were once found all along the eastern coast, but once the mangroves disappeared so did the crocs). They numbered 96 in 1976 in mainland India (except Andamans). Use the same barometer for both.

And, historically the Sundarbans crocs were part of the same contiguous population as the ones from Bhitarkanika and like I said the distance is only 120 kilometre between these two landscapes and there have been specimens of skulls of 100 cm found here historically. 10% of all adult saltwater crocs in Bhitarkanika  exceed 6 metres. In fact, if you put GPS collar on a few of them today, you will see a few migrating to Sundarbans (they have been migrating as Bhitarkanika is reaching it’s carrying capacity).

So, instead of using two different standards, use the same historical sizes argument for the saltwater crocs from Sundarbans. Unless you want to argue that orinoco crocs are bigger than saltwater crocs (not just any saltwater crocs as Bhitarkanika houses couple of croc skull bigger than any skull found in Australia), it is all part of wild speculation with very little basis in merit.

Except that your initial argument entailed that jaguars didn't meet similarly sized crocodilians in the floodplains that they inhabit. Using historical sizes make more sense because it highlights the continuous cohabitation of both predators in los Llanos for thousands of years, which didn't interrupt nor changed the aquatic behavior of jaguars in the area, even when the crocodiles were much bigger during those times. And like I said before, we are lacking recent data on the measurements of adult prime Oriconoco crocodiles both in captivity and in the wild, and based on footage such as the one posted above by epaiva, is pretty clear that some individuals in captivity are already pushing if not surpassing 5 meters in length, which is still more than anything recorded for salties in the Sundarbans.

You're also dismissing the part where I said that they overlapped for the most part in size, but once again data does suggest that Orinoco ones will grow bigger in the absolutes. And if the records of 7+ meters individuals from the past are accurate, they have the potential to and used to challenge in size the salt-water crocodiles from other areas. Reply

[Balam]

(08-09-2020, 08:06 PM)epaiva Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 05:43 PM)Balam Wrote: It doesn't matter because I am not using recent weights to determine their size, the current population estimation of Orinoco crocodiles in the wild is at around 250 individuals only, they have been heavily hunted and their genetic pool and therefore size has suffered as a result. To determine their regular interactions with jaguars then one has to study their historical sizes and size potential, where they surpass anything registered by a Sudarbans saltwater crocodile with ease. Actually, recent measurements for Orinoco crocodiles in captivity and those released into the wild haven't been performed, but I wouldn't be surprised if those are already surpassing 5 meters in length, even @epaiva recorded this video of an Orinoco crocodiles of about 5 meters in length, he can reiterate that himself:

No mugger, regardless of how much of an outlier it might be, is going to outsize a large Orinoco crocodile. And I'm not speaking of other crocodile populations, in specifically mentioning Sundarbans, the sizes of the crocodiles in surrounding regions is irrelevant.

You are right no Mugger will even grow close to the average size of Orinoco Crocodiles, you can find pictures videos and Information of zorinoco Crocodiles here in Wildfact 
@Balam
@Ashutosh

Can you confirm that the crocodile in that video is over 5 meters in length? I myself have seen some in person when I was in Colombia that looked bigger than 4 meters comfortably. People here are under-sizing and underrating them. Reply

[epaiva]

(08-09-2020, 08:14 PM)Balam Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 08:06 PM)epaiva Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 05:43 PM)Balam Wrote: It doesn't matter because I am not using recent weights to determine their size, the current population estimation of Orinoco crocodiles in the wild is at around 250 individuals only, they have been heavily hunted and their genetic pool and therefore size has suffered as a result. To determine their regular interactions with jaguars then one has to study their historical sizes and size potential, where they surpass anything registered by a Sudarbans saltwater crocodile with ease. Actually, recent measurements for Orinoco crocodiles in captivity and those released into the wild haven't been performed, but I wouldn't be surprised if those are already surpassing 5 meters in length, even @epaiva recorded this video of an Orinoco crocodiles of about 5 meters in length, he can reiterate that himself:

No mugger, regardless of how much of an outlier it might be, is going to outsize a large Orinoco crocodile. And I'm not speaking of other crocodile populations, in specifically mentioning Sundarbans, the sizes of the crocodiles in surrounding regions is irrelevant.

You are right no Mugger will even grow close to the average size of Orinoco Crocodiles, you can find pictures videos and Information of zorinoco Crocodiles here in Wildfact 
@Balam
@Ashutosh

Can you confirm that the crocodile in that video is over 5 meters in length? I myself have seen some in person when I was in Colombia that looked bigger than 4 meters comfortably. People here are under-sizing and underrating them.

The one in the video measures 4,50 meters long Reply

[Bitishannah]

https://youtu.be/kLoyEi5GgS4

Here Jeremy says muggers can reach 18 feet in length!. Reply