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Stripedlion2 · 07-30-2020, 07:47 AM

Dang cave lions were monsters very few lions reach 250kg+ In the wild and 400 kg is unheard of for a big cat in the wild.

Stripedlion2 · 07-30-2020, 07:55 AM

Could the African lion and cave lion make off spring together?

GrizzlyClaws · 07-30-2020, 10:42 PM

(07-30-2020, 07:55 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: Could the African lion and cave lion make off spring together?

Theoretically, it should be an interspecific hybrid with fertility, not much different from a hybrid between the two clouded leopard species, since they were both lions.

However, the fossil records have showed us no evidence of hybridization between cave lion and american lion in the wild. Consider that the american lion was more closely related to the cave lion than to the modern lion.

That's why more new fossil evidence needs to be discovered.

Stripedlion2 · 07-30-2020, 11:09 PM

Maybe we’ll get some new evidence in the upcoming years I do know that they’ve been finding a lot of fossils in Siberia . They just found a mammoth skeleton in a lake like last week. Were american lions large than cave lions? I know there was estimates of them up to 470kg but that’s starting to look like that’s false.

GrizzlyClaws · 07-31-2020, 03:06 AM

(07-30-2020, 11:09 PM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: Maybe we’ll get some new evidence in the upcoming years I do know that they’ve been finding a lot of fossils in Siberia . They just found a mammoth skeleton in a lake like last week. Were american lions large than cave lions? I know there was estimates of them up to 470kg but that’s starting to look like that’s false.

They were about the same size.

Stripedlion2 · 07-31-2020, 03:43 AM

I guess those statements of American lions growing up to 500kg+ is false .

GrizzlyClaws · 07-31-2020, 05:18 AM

(07-31-2020, 03:43 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: I guess those statements of American lions growing up to 500kg+ is false .

Those assumptions came from the earlier overestimation on the body mass of the American lion.

The skull and limb measurement between these two lions are really comparable in the reality.

Stripedlion2 · 07-31-2020, 07:44 AM

Did American lions even have manes? Or is that only unique to p.leo.

GrizzlyClaws · 08-01-2020, 01:04 AM

(07-31-2020, 07:44 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: Did American lions even have manes? Or is that only unique to p.leo.

Just like the cave lion, most males were maneless, perhaps only few individuals got a sparse mane around the neck.

tigerluver · 08-01-2020, 01:15 AM

(07-29-2020, 06:35 PM)Sully Wrote: New cave lion paper

Early Pleistocene origin and extensive intra-species diversity of the extinct cave lion

Abstract

The cave lion is an extinct felid that was widespread across the Holarctic throughout the Late Pleistocene. Its closest extant relative is the lion (Panthera leo), but the timing of the divergence between these two taxa, as well as their taxonomic ranking are contentious. In this study we analyse 31 mitochondrial genome sequences from cave lion individuals that, through a combination of 14C and genetic tip dating, are estimated to be from dates extending well into the mid-Pleistocene. We identified two deeply diverged and well-supported reciprocally monophyletic mitogenome clades in the cave lion, and an additional third distinct lineage represented by a single individual. One of these clades was restricted to Beringia while the other was prevalent across western Eurasia. These observed clade distributions are in line with previous observations that Beringian and European cave lions were morphologically distinct. The divergence dates for these lineages are estimated to be far older than those between extant lions subspecies. By combining our radiocarbon tip-dates with a split time prior that takes into account the most up-to-date fossil stem calibrations, we estimated the mitochondrial DNA divergence between cave lions and lions to be 1.85 Million ya (95% 0.52– 2.91 Mya). Taken together, these results support previous hypotheses that cave lions existed as at least two subspecies during the Pleistocene, and that lions and cave lions were distinct species.

What a powerful study. The sample of cave lions is 31! The de Manuel et al. (2020), Barnett et al. (2016), and Burger et al. (2004) studies each used only 2 P. spelaea in their samples. On top of that, they might've just been the first to analyze the DNA of P. fossilis! The Kirillova et al. (2015) specimen was dated to >61 kya (exceeded carbon date range). Per this new analysis, they dated it to 643 kya if I am reading correctly via molecular tip dating. I am uncertain of the accuracy of molecular tip dating compared to radiometric dating, but if accurate we finally have the phylogenetic position of what should be P. fossilis established. Lineage "A", based on this specimen, split from the cave lion clades B and C 0.97 mya. Then it seems the Eastern and Western populations of P. spelaea diverged 578 kya. This seems to be in line with Sabol and Hanko & Korsos three wave hypothesis. It should also be noted Dr. Barnett was part of this new study.

Stripedlion2 · 08-01-2020, 10:45 AM

I wonder if scientists will ever find a preserved body of a grown cave lion that would be amazing and be very useful for a lot of things.

Stripedlion2 · 08-03-2020, 04:26 AM

https://www.livescience.com/amp/27404-lion-facts.html scientists discover that west and eastern African lions are genetically closed to asiatic lions then south and eastern African lions so they’ve now put recognize them as 2 different subspecies. Panthera Leo Leo is the central,western,extinct northern,Asian lion, and south Eastern Europe . And Panthera Leo melanochaita includes the south and eastern African lion. This study was pretty recent the article was posted 11 months ago.

GrizzlyClaws · 08-03-2020, 06:37 AM

(08-03-2020, 04:26 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: https://www.livescience.com/amp/27404-lion-facts.html scientists discover that west and eastern African lions are genetically closed to asiatic lions then south and eastern African lions so they’ve now put recognize them as 2 different subspecies. Panthera Leo Leo is the central,western,extinct northern,Asian lion, and south Eastern Europe . And Panthera Leo melanochaita includes the south and eastern African lion. This study was pretty recent the article was posted 11 months ago.

The genetic difference between the European Cave lion and Eastern Siberian Cave lion was greater than the genetic difference between the African lion and Asiatic lion.

Stripedlion2 · 08-03-2020, 06:48 AM

Really? How were the cave lions different from each other.

GrizzlyClaws · 08-04-2020, 02:20 AM

(08-03-2020, 06:48 AM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: Really? How were the cave lions different from each other.

Because the timeline of the divergence.

The African/Asiatic lions only diverged from each between 120,000 - 100,000 years ago, whereas this case happened to the Eastern/Western Eurasian Cave lions in 500,000 - 300,000 years ago.

The African lion and Asiatic lion shared a common ancestor as recent as 100,000 years ago, that's why they are more closely related to each other.

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