There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
03-12-2020, 01:36 AM( This post was last modified: 03-12-2020, 01:41 AM by tigerluver )
(03-12-2020, 01:33 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(03-12-2020, 01:28 AM)tigerluver Wrote: Thor is the son of Sabre. The website is long gone but Sabre was even larger at 481 kg. Thor also had a similar sized brother, Thunder. All the tigers were quite overweight but Sabre did have a massive frame. There used to be a photo of him where just his body was as long or longer than a couch. Only image I could find was this:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Even if Sabre was carrying 300 lbs/136 kg of extra weight, he'd still be massive.
The snapshot of wild cat weights are small and skewed by human pressures. As such, I recommend to not disregard a weight if it doesn't a preformed picture of what is reality. After all, during the existence of modern man true lions and tigers with skulls exceeding 18 inches existed (the Natodomeri lion and Kahayan tiger).
Well, that site doesn´t have even Jaipur right, so it tells quite a lot of reliability of that site and weights. It´s easy to have a 400-500 kg tiger, all it takes is to say so, when owner of some private sanctuary. No wonder, that so many people assume, that 300 kg would be nothing for tigers, when that kind of sites have done "good work".
03-12-2020, 02:02 AM( This post was last modified: 03-12-2020, 02:06 AM by Shadow )
(03-12-2020, 01:36 AM)tigerluver Wrote:
(03-12-2020, 01:33 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(03-12-2020, 01:28 AM)tigerluver Wrote: Thor is the son of Sabre. The website is long gone but Sabre was even larger at 481 kg. Thor also had a similar sized brother, Thunder. All the tigers were quite overweight but Sabre did have a massive frame. There used to be a photo of him where just his body was as long or longer than a couch. Only image I could find was this:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Even if Sabre was carrying 300 lbs/136 kg of extra weight, he'd still be massive.
The snapshot of wild cat weights are small and skewed by human pressures. As such, I recommend to not disregard a weight if it doesn't a preformed picture of what is reality. After all, during the existence of modern man true lions and tigers with skulls exceeding 18 inches existed (the Natodomeri lion and Kahayan tiger).
Well, that site doesn´t have even Jaipur right, so it tells quite a lot of reliability of that site and weights. It´s easy to have a 400-500 kg tiger, all it takes is to say so, when owner of some private sanctuary. No wonder, that so many people assume, that 300 kg would be nothing for tigers, when that kind of sites have done "good work".
Newspapers, like many articles of 1000 kg bear, which was then 570 kg, when zoo finally found their records :) Reason why I´m very critical to some claimed weights isn´t it, that I would care so much if some animal is 200, 300 or 400 kg. But after seeing how much unreliable measurements and weights have been shared during the years and accepted easily without too much critical eye, it´s good to point out contradictions and how vague some claims are. And especially when noticing that huge contradiction with real zoos and private sanctuaries, when looking at weights. It´s good to think a moment, that how come that is possible. I just watched a video in which one man told, that his lion is 300 kg.... and I have some doubts that he would have never been weighed.
In another a man said, that his lion is 660 kg, then a minute later he said 680... even if he mixed up lbs and kg, he still had two different figures one after another. Maybe if someone would have asked again, it would have been already 700. And that lion was fat, so even if this "660 kg lion" was in reality 300 kg which is same as 660 lbs, in "normal condition" it would have been max. 240-250 kg.
I asked from one sanctuary about one tiger, which they said to be... was it 1000 lbs. They replied that it was, but obese as could be seen from one video clip too. And that he was weighed in some "local scale". I would love to see how some owner of claimed "giant" would arrange weighing with some WAZA or AZA zoo etc. I don´t think that we see such too soon. Guinness also stopped those "fat animal contests" like what comes to Jaipur, it was kind of disgrace to call that kind of tiger as biggest ever or even heaviest ever. Big cats deserve more respect than some freak shows. I wonder how many private owners overfed their tigers in hope to have a heavier tiger than Jaipur and get name in Guinness Book of Records at that time. Sad thing.
The following 1 user Likes Shadow's post:1 user Likes Shadow's post • peter
03-12-2020, 02:25 AM( This post was last modified: 03-12-2020, 02:26 AM by tigerluver )
(03-12-2020, 02:02 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(03-12-2020, 01:36 AM)tigerluver Wrote:
(03-12-2020, 01:33 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(03-12-2020, 01:28 AM)tigerluver Wrote: Thor is the son of Sabre. The website is long gone but Sabre was even larger at 481 kg. Thor also had a similar sized brother, Thunder. All the tigers were quite overweight but Sabre did have a massive frame. There used to be a photo of him where just his body was as long or longer than a couch. Only image I could find was this:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Even if Sabre was carrying 300 lbs/136 kg of extra weight, he'd still be massive.
The snapshot of wild cat weights are small and skewed by human pressures. As such, I recommend to not disregard a weight if it doesn't a preformed picture of what is reality. After all, during the existence of modern man true lions and tigers with skulls exceeding 18 inches existed (the Natodomeri lion and Kahayan tiger).
Well, that site doesn´t have even Jaipur right, so it tells quite a lot of reliability of that site and weights. It´s easy to have a 400-500 kg tiger, all it takes is to say so, when owner of some private sanctuary. No wonder, that so many people assume, that 300 kg would be nothing for tigers, when that kind of sites have done "good work".
Newspapers, like many articles of 1000 kg bear, which was then 570 kg, when zoo finally found their records :) Reason why I´m very critical to some claimed weights isn´t it, that I would care so much if some animal is 200, 300 or 400 kg. But after seeing how much unreliable measurements and weights have been shared during the years and accepted easily without too much critical eye, it´s good to point out contradictions and how vague some claims are. And especially when noticing that huge contradiction with real zoos and private sanctuaries, when looking at weights. It´s good to think a moment, that how come that is possible. I just watched a video in which one man told, that his lion is 300 kg.... and I have some doubts that he would have never been weighed.
In another a man said, that his lion is 660 kg, then a minute later he said 680... even if he mixed up lbs and kg, he still had two different figures one after another. Maybe if someone would have asked again, it would have been already 700. And that lion was fat, so even if this "660 kg lion" was in reality 300 kg which is same as 660 lbs, in "normal condition" it would have been max. 240-250 kg.
I asked from one sanctuary about one tiger, which they said to be... was it 1000 lbs. They replied that it was, but obese as could be seen from one video clip too. And that he was weighed in some "local scale". I would love to see how some owner of claimed "giant" would arrange weighing with some WAZA or AZA zoo etc. I don´t think that we see such too soon. Guinness also stopped those "fat animal contests" like what comes to Jaipur, it was kind of disgrace to call that kind of tiger as biggest ever or even heaviest ever. Big cats deserve more respect than some freak shows. I wonder how many private owners overfed their tigers in hope to have a heavier tiger than Jaipur and get name in Guinness Book of Records at that time. Sad thing.
What is the average weight of specimens from high quality zoo and average weight of private sanctuary specimens? This would be good data to statistically analyze. Of course, obesity is much more prevalent in private "sanctuaries" but at the same token many zoo specimens do not have the mass of their wild counterparts. The Sauraha male was ~4% shorter than a couple of captive specimens in Christiansen and Adolffsen (2007) but outweighed them by at least 18%. Similarly, the skulls of wild specimens seem denser and heavier, indicating heavier bone stresses and thus muscle mass for the same frame. Thus, it does not seem that zoo animals are representatives of wild form either, nor are obese sanctuary specimens.
03-12-2020, 02:33 AM( This post was last modified: 03-12-2020, 02:34 AM by Pckts )
Wild specimens are far superior, it's not close.
In terms of Sanctuaries vs Zoos, I've seen some good and bad in both. Overall I'd say that Zoos do a better job of maintaining a healthy body weight for their cats but that doesnt mean that I haven't seen some very healthy, large specimens in Sanctuaries as well.
The following 1 user Likes Pckts's post:1 user Likes Pckts's post • peter
03-12-2020, 03:15 AM( This post was last modified: 03-12-2020, 06:08 AM by Shadow )
(03-12-2020, 02:25 AM)tigerluver Wrote:
(03-12-2020, 02:02 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(03-12-2020, 01:36 AM)tigerluver Wrote:
(03-12-2020, 01:33 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(03-12-2020, 01:28 AM)tigerluver Wrote: Thor is the son of Sabre. The website is long gone but Sabre was even larger at 481 kg. Thor also had a similar sized brother, Thunder. All the tigers were quite overweight but Sabre did have a massive frame. There used to be a photo of him where just his body was as long or longer than a couch. Only image I could find was this:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Even if Sabre was carrying 300 lbs/136 kg of extra weight, he'd still be massive.
The snapshot of wild cat weights are small and skewed by human pressures. As such, I recommend to not disregard a weight if it doesn't a preformed picture of what is reality. After all, during the existence of modern man true lions and tigers with skulls exceeding 18 inches existed (the Natodomeri lion and Kahayan tiger).
Well, that site doesn´t have even Jaipur right, so it tells quite a lot of reliability of that site and weights. It´s easy to have a 400-500 kg tiger, all it takes is to say so, when owner of some private sanctuary. No wonder, that so many people assume, that 300 kg would be nothing for tigers, when that kind of sites have done "good work".
Newspapers, like many articles of 1000 kg bear, which was then 570 kg, when zoo finally found their records :) Reason why I´m very critical to some claimed weights isn´t it, that I would care so much if some animal is 200, 300 or 400 kg. But after seeing how much unreliable measurements and weights have been shared during the years and accepted easily without too much critical eye, it´s good to point out contradictions and how vague some claims are. And especially when noticing that huge contradiction with real zoos and private sanctuaries, when looking at weights. It´s good to think a moment, that how come that is possible. I just watched a video in which one man told, that his lion is 300 kg.... and I have some doubts that he would have never been weighed.
In another a man said, that his lion is 660 kg, then a minute later he said 680... even if he mixed up lbs and kg, he still had two different figures one after another. Maybe if someone would have asked again, it would have been already 700. And that lion was fat, so even if this "660 kg lion" was in reality 300 kg which is same as 660 lbs, in "normal condition" it would have been max. 240-250 kg.
I asked from one sanctuary about one tiger, which they said to be... was it 1000 lbs. They replied that it was, but obese as could be seen from one video clip too. And that he was weighed in some "local scale". I would love to see how some owner of claimed "giant" would arrange weighing with some WAZA or AZA zoo etc. I don´t think that we see such too soon. Guinness also stopped those "fat animal contests" like what comes to Jaipur, it was kind of disgrace to call that kind of tiger as biggest ever or even heaviest ever. Big cats deserve more respect than some freak shows. I wonder how many private owners overfed their tigers in hope to have a heavier tiger than Jaipur and get name in Guinness Book of Records at that time. Sad thing.
What is the average weight of specimens from high quality zoo and average weight of private sanctuary specimens? This would be good data to statistically analyze. Of course, obesity is much more prevalent in private "sanctuaries" but at the same token many zoo specimens do not have the mass of their wild counterparts. The Sauraha male was ~4% shorter than a couple of captive specimens in Christiansen and Adolffsen (2007) but outweighed them by at least 18%. Similarly, the skulls of wild specimens seem denser and heavier, indicating heavier bone stresses and thus muscle mass for the same frame. Thus, it does not seem that zoo animals are representatives of wild form either, nor are obese sanctuary specimens.
Yes, more good information as much as possible is always interesting to see. What comes to shorter specimen outweighing longer ones, well we have always more robust individuals than others in mammals. 200 cm tall man compared to 192 cm tall man, there is 4 % difference, but if that "short" guy is robust and 200 cm tall slim.... there we go. When I look at the biggest captive big cats and wild ones, they seem to be at the same range in between 250-300 kg.
What comes to average weights when comparing to private sanctuaries and for instance zoos which are members of WAZA, difficult to say. But when looking at claims concerning +300 kg tigers and +400 kg tigers.... I hope that people who are interested do some google searches. And when seeing results thinking over a bit, that does it look like logical and convincing, when they are after all looking at same species. That difference has made it for me personally impossible to take seriously weights from certain places without double and triple checking.
The following 1 user Likes Shadow's post:1 user Likes Shadow's post • peter
(03-12-2020, 01:28 AM)tigerluver Wrote: Thor is the son of Sabre. The website is long gone but Sabre was even larger at 481 kg. Thor also had a similar sized brother, Thunder. All the tigers were quite overweight but Sabre did have a massive frame. There used to be a photo of him where just his body was as long or longer than a couch. Only image I could find was this:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Even if Sabre was carrying 300 lbs/136 kg of extra weight, he'd still be massive.
The snapshot of wild cat weights are small and skewed by human pressures. As such, I recommend to not disregard a weight if it doesn't a preformed picture of what is reality. After all, during the existence of modern man true lions and tigers with skulls exceeding 18 inches existed (the Natodomeri lion and Kahayan tiger).
Never heard of Kahayan tiger with such large skulls, where can I find more infos about that?
(03-15-2020, 11:20 PM)Amnon242 Wrote: what happened?
The issue is that those that knew him we trust in his information, but those that no are now putting doubt in his reports. Sadly we lost contact with him so there is no form to corroborate his information.
(03-15-2020, 11:20 PM)Amnon242 Wrote: what happened?
The issue is that those that knew him we trust in his information, but those that no are now putting doubt in his reports. Sadly we lost contact with him so there is no form to corroborate his information.
I can't find any of his original posts now, too much junk to look through.
Does anyone know where to find them now?
(03-16-2020, 09:45 PM)Pckts Wrote: I can't find any of his original posts now, too much junk to look through.
Does anyone know where to find them now?
Is in the old AVA forum, I only have screenshots of the specific figures that he posted, but not the entire posts.
It's such a pain to scroll through that now, I tried to find them but had no luck.
I found it once a while ago randomly, I wish I would of posted them here.
(03-16-2020, 09:52 PM)Pckts Wrote: It's such a pain to scroll through that now, I tried to find them but had no luck.
I found it once a while ago randomly, I wish I would of posted them here.
Yes, there is to much crap in the old AVA that is hard to found the good old data.
A good advice, everytime that you found old data by chance, take a screenshot to save it.
03-16-2020, 11:49 PM( This post was last modified: 03-17-2020, 06:17 PM by peter )
(03-16-2020, 09:45 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-16-2020, 09:34 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(03-15-2020, 11:20 PM)Amnon242 Wrote: what happened?
The issue is that those that knew him we trust in his information, but those that no are now putting doubt in his reports. Sadly we lost contact with him so there is no form to corroborate his information.
I can't find any of his original posts now, too much junk to look through.
Does anyone know where to find them now?
Assuming you're referring to the posts of EagleRaptor: No worries.
I printed, scanned and stored every informing post of Eagle. I can't post them right now, because that would take time. Time I need to finish reorganising my archive. It's so large, that it already took more than a year (...). But I'm getting there.
(03-15-2020, 11:20 PM)Amnon242 Wrote: what happened?
The issue is that those that knew him we trust in his information, but those that no are now putting doubt in his reports. Sadly we lost contact with him so there is no form to corroborate his information.
craig kennion and eagleraptor are two different persons eagleraptor is pretending to be craig kennion.Gamin the tiger was weighed at 276 kilos but he was fed with 14 kgs of meat previous day according to kennion and there is an another tiger named Kistora from howletts at 282 kg.You can contact kennion on facebook
03-17-2020, 07:05 AM( This post was last modified: 03-17-2020, 07:06 AM by Pckts )
(03-16-2020, 11:49 PM)peter Wrote:
(03-16-2020, 09:45 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-16-2020, 09:34 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(03-15-2020, 11:20 PM)Amnon242 Wrote: what happened?
The issue is that those that knew him we trust in his information, but those that no are now putting doubt in his reports. Sadly we lost contact with him so there is no form to corroborate his information.
I can't find any of his original posts now, too much junk to look through.
Does anyone know where to find them now?
Assuming youre'referring to the posts of EagleRaptor: No worries.
I printed, scanned and stored every informing post of Eagle. I can't post them right now, because that would take time. Time I need to finish reorganising my archive. It's so large, that it already took more than a year (...). But I'm getting there.
