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Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Printable Version

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RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 08-24-2020

80 kg prime female from Southern Pantanal!!


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author



RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 08-24-2020

Edno is estimated to be at least 150 kg by the Jaguar ID Project, they also told me that Juru was actually never captured so I'm going to have to delete him from our table, sadly.


*This image is copyright of its original author


Actually, @Dark Jaguar can you confirm with your contact at Panthera if Juru was ever captured?


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 08-24-2020

(08-24-2020, 04:57 AM)Balam Wrote: Edno is estimated to be at least 150 kg by the Jaguar ID Project, they also told me that Juru was actually never captured so I'm going to have to delete him from our table, sadly.


*This image is copyright of its original author


Actually, @Dark Jaguar can you confirm with your contact at Panthera if Juru was ever captured?

Do you know who you're talking too?
If its Paul Donahue, than he knows the Northern Pantanal Jaguars better than anyone. 
I've heard Tusk is huge so thats no surprise and I know Balam is a monster from first hand experience, there are others there that are also in their league. The north is such a unique place.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 08-24-2020

@Pckts I think she's Abigail since I've seen her feature on a program in Korea that touched on the Jaguar ID Program, I'm sure she's really knowledgeable. She also knows about our table and our threads in the directory section. I'll keep contact to see if they can update us with better info with time.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 08-25-2020

@Balam

I will try to contact Tortato to get the confirmation on Juru's capture but after that claim I'm starting to think Globo estimated him.




@Pckts

Master Crawshaw returned and passed me the others measurements of the Porto Primavera jaguars.


PORTO PRIMAVERA JAGUARS MEASUREMENTS.

Pita male 130kg, thorax girth 114 cm, shoulder height 70,0 cm, body length 151,0 cm.

Zezão male 110kg, thorax girth 99 cm, shoulder height 80,0 cm, body length 143,0 cm.

Sueli female 77kg, thorax girth 96 cm, shoulder height 78,0 cm, body length 129,0 cm.


Measurement method by Crawshaw's word: '' Measurements in straight line, never following the curves of the body. ''


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 08-25-2020

@Dark Jaguar , 114 cm in in straight line for the chest girth is impressive. If you compare those measurements you can see that jaguars attain mass by becoming wider, unlike other cats who are more horizontal i.e. leopards, which is why comparing them is stupid because they're so different.

The 130 kg male also happens to be shorter, while Zezão who is 20 kg lighter was 10 cm taller. Very interesting.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 08-25-2020

@Balam

I told you in the Jaguars of Brazil thread, Jaguars are built to be like that (what you mentioned), and also I agree they kinda walk like bears, if you wanna compare a jaguar and see if its the proportionally stockier OVERALL comparing to other cat, in my opinion the best individual to use would be the Caatinga jaguars who don't get much credits.

For being the smallest you will still see stockness and broadness on them meaning no matter the size or weight jaguars will still get those traits you mentioned. Many people would think a jaguar on 35kg, 40kg would be skinny but that's not the case at all when they are healthy in the wild, in Caatinga they're just miniature versions of their ''larger versions''. Even sometimes being smaller than Pumas they're still stockier and in my opinion it would still be stockier proportionately than any other cat at that size not just the Caatinga Puma. That Dark male I estimate to be 45 kg of muscles is a good example. they're built like that that's why I say it.

Caatinga jaguars would be the best one to prove it.


I also let it clear many times despite jaguars scientifically being related to leopard and lions, through my eyes they resemble more the tigers. both cats love water, their skulls despite the huge size difference it still got something in common with both tending to be very wide, jaguars when very angry or highly stressed out will roar incredibly reaching a ton note that is just like that of a tiger's.

despite I've already shown this tiger-like roar before with Xavante cerrado male, there's another one in Pantanal that I perceived since the first time I watched that video, in case you didn't notice In the fight of Balam and Juru when both are fighting rolling down the steep, first turn up your volume then repeat the exact 44 seconds at least 7 times in a row and you'll pick the tiger-like roar.





Its impressive but remember Jaguars will only reach that note when they're very very angry or highly stressed out.




And back to the main point of the thread.

What about Sueli what do you think of her?? I find her very impressive with only 77 kg she got a massive chest girth that is only 3 cm thinner than the 110 kg Dark male Zezão.

She's also taller than Pita and speaking of him Pita was the best definition for jaguars short and broad.


I will also manage to get the chest and shoulder measurements of that Porto Primavera male of 122 kg but first I will talk to Crawshaw about the 140 kg male who got ran over by vehicle.





@Pckts

how would you compare in sizes these 3 jaguars of Crawshaw with the jaguars of Almeida ??


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - peter - 08-25-2020

(08-25-2020, 06:34 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: @Balam

I will try to contact Tortato to get the confirmation on Juru's capture but after that claim I'm starting to think Globo estimated him.

@Pckts

Master Crawshaw returned and passed me the others measurements of the Porto Primavera jaguars.


PORTO PRIMAVERA JAGUARS MEASUREMENTS.

Pita male 130kg, thorax girth 114 cm, shoulder height 70,0 cm, body length 151,0 cm.

Zezão male 110kg, thorax girth 99 cm, shoulder height 80,0 cm, body length 143,0 cm.

Sueli female 77kg, thorax girth 96 cm, shoulder height 78,0 cm, body length 129,0 cm.


Measurement method by Crawshaw's word: '' Measurements in straight line, never following the curves of the body. ''

1 - Method used to measure the length of jaguars

" ... never following the curves of the body ... " (from your post). Very good. A curve measurement can be added, but only measurements taken 'between pegs' reflect the true length of a cat. Head and body and tail should be measured separately. 

2 - Body dimensions 

Try to find out in what way the chest is measured. I ask, because researchers not seldom only measure half of the chest (big cats are heavy animals) and multiply the outcome. In order to compare them to other big cats, we also need the neck, head and fore-arm circumference.

3 - Information on the size of wild jaguars in Brazil 

Many thanks for the measurements, Balam and Dark Jaguar. Good work. My guess is Wildfact now is one of the few public forums offering reliable (and recent) information about the size of all four big cats. Jaguarwise, you really filled a gap. 

4 - Pantanal and Caatinga jaguars

The information you posted shows large male Pantanal jaguars can be up to three times as heavy as large male Caatinga jaguars. This then is the effect of conditions and, most probably, population size (and density). Remarkable.

5 - Tables

If you post a new table, Balam, add as many body measurements as possible (head and body length, tail length and chest- , neck- , head- and fore-arm circumference). The more we know, the better the chance to get to good conclusions.

In order to prevent problems, a distinction between sources has to be made. You can, for example, post a table based on the book of T. de Almeida and one based on recent research in the Pantanal. In this way, you can get to conclusions on differences between hunters and researchers. This is necessary, because hunters tend to select large individuals, whereas researchers dart and measure every jaguar they can, including immature and/or unhealthy individuals. 

I'm not suggesting records of hunters are unreliable (in my opinion, quite a few compare to researchers in this respect). What I'm saying is selection has a result. Doing two tables enables you to quantify the effect.  

My advice is to distinguish between regions as well. In jaguars, the difference between regions seems to be quite outspoken.    

In order to give an example of what I mean, I added a table I posted in the tiger extinction thread in 2016. It's based on measurements in the book of the Maharajah of Cooch Behar published in 1908. As it has a lot of information (including liner notes), errors are difficult to avoid. The advantage is it offers overview:   
  


*This image is copyright of its original author



RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 08-25-2020

I'll take a look later today and add some comparisons.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 08-25-2020

Sueli female 77kg, thorax girth 96 cm, shoulder height 78,0 cm, body length 129,0 cm.

Compared to

Pantanal Female Jaguar *86kgs*
203 cm between the pegs *had a 60 cm tail*
Girth behind the shoulders 100cm
Girth at the belly 109 cm

*This image is copyright of its original author


Pita male 130kg, thorax girth 114 cm, shoulder height 70,0 cm, body length 151,0 cm.

Zezão male 110kg, thorax girth 99 cm, shoulder height 80,0 cm, body length 143,0 cm.

Compared To

Joker Male *Measured over the Curves*
165 CM Body Length
71 CM Tail Length
236 CM Total Length
76 CM Shoulder Height
126 CM Chest Girth 
66 CM Neck Girth


And lastly is the Heaviest Jaguar weighed by Almeida *119kg empty*
Between the Pegs

Total Length 83 8/16 or 212.09 CM
Tail Length 21 8/16 or 54.61 CM
Girth Behind Shoulder 43 or 109.22 CM
Girth of middle of belly 47 (empty) or 119.38 CM
Girth of Head 29 or 73.66 CM
Girth of Neck 25 8/16 or 64.77 CM
Height at Shoulder 28 12/16 or 73.02 CM


I would assume that Thorax and Girth of the Middle of the belly are what we should compare.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 08-26-2020

@peter thanks for the feedback, I'm actually waiting on the Jaguar ID project as they said there were 13 to 15 jaguars capture so far in the Porto Jofre region and I'm waiting on them to provide for me the weights to add to the table. And just like you said, all this public inform on jaguars is unique to WF, not only because it is contemporary, but because it has been reviewed by the researchers themselves and is an ongoing project. I'll make sure to work on the new table once I get the new weights and I have gathered the body measurements, it may take me a while but it will get done.

@Dark Jaguar your assessment on the jaguars I couldn't agree more, they are called American tigers for a reason, repairs being closer to lions and leopards taxonomically, they fill the niche of the tiger in the new world. Cougars fill the niche of the leopard while we used to have our own lions during the Pleistocene.

@Pckts really nice comparison of measurements from Almeida, if anything they continue to reassure that jaguars have gotten bigger since the hunting days. I'm still shocked at Joker's measurements, his chest girth is lion/tiger like even over curves, he's on his prime so I'm saying for him to be weighed this following capture season on September, I have feeling he will surprise us all.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 08-26-2020

(08-26-2020, 12:33 AM)Balam Wrote: @peter thanks for the feedback, I'm actually waiting on the Jaguar ID project as they said there were 13 to 15 jaguars capture so far in the Porto Jofre region and I'm waiting on them to provide for me the weights to add to the table. And just like you said, all this public inform on jaguars is unique to WF, not only because it is contemporary, but because it has been reviewed by the researchers themselves and is an ongoing project. I'll make sure to work on the new table once I get the new weights and I have gathered the body measurements, it may take me a while but it will get done.

@Dark Jaguar your assessment on the jaguars I couldn't agree more, they are called American tigers for a reason, repairs being closer to lions and leopards taxonomically, they fill the niche of the tiger in the new world. Cougars fill the niche of the leopard while we used to have our own lions during the Pleistocene.

@Pckts really nice comparison of measurements from Almeida, if anything they continue to reassure that jaguars have gotten bigger since the hunting days. I'm still shocked at Joker's measurements, his chest girth is lion/tiger like even over curves, he's on his prime so I'm saying for him to be weighed this following capture season on September, I have feeling he will surprise us all.

Joker is a monster, that's for sure.
I can't wait to hear about the captures and the best thing about JagID is that they'll be able to give you info on the individual cat and their lineage.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Stripedlion2 - 08-31-2020

(08-04-2020, 05:58 AM)peter Wrote:
(08-04-2020, 04:05 AM)Balam Wrote: From the jaguar directory thread, I posted a story on a Chaco jaguar who's pugmark width measured 10 cm, and I have felt is the same pugmark that measured close to 15 cm in length that I posted some time ago. @peter I wanted to ask you, based on the knowledge you have of the paw sizes of tigresses and small tigers, would a pugmark of a similar dimension compare? I've been under the assumption that tigresses usually have pugmarks of 10-12 cm in width. It would be interesting to draw the parallel because Chaco jaguars have been compared in the past to Sumatran tigers by hunters and comparing them to the data that we do have on tigers would give us a better idea of their size potential. Chaco jaguars are severely understudied and highly threatened.

BALAM (Onca?)

a - Difference between heel width and a pugmark
 
Before answering the question, I decided for a few words on the difference between a print (pugmark) and the heel width. In this photograph (pugmark of a male Amur tiger first posted by Rage), you can see the difference between a complete print and the heel width: 


*This image is copyright of its original author


Here's the tiger who left the print:


*This image is copyright of its original author

   
b - Heel width of wild Amur tigers

In wild Amur tigresses, the heel width ranges between 8,0-10,0 cm. In adult wild male Amur tigers, it ranges between 10,5-12,8 cm. 

The heel width in exceptional males can reach 13,5 cm. According to Tigerluver, a male width a heel width of 13,5 cm. ranges between 259-339 kg. One captive male Amur tiger in a UK zoo just over 600 pounds (272,16 kg.) had a heel width of 14,1 cm.

I don't remember if it's this tiger, but I do know he was just over 600 pounds as well:


*This image is copyright of its original author


c - Further reading

A few months ago, I posted extensively on the relation between heel width and weight in wild Amur tigers in the tiger extinction thread (posts 2,467-2,481 and post 2,492). Heel width, to keep it short, is one of the best indicators of weight in wild big cats (and brown bears). 

d - A wild male Amur tiger with a heel width of 13,5 cm.

For different reasons (discussed in the tiger extinction thread), researchers today are hesitant to dart healthy wild male Amur tigers. This means we have no option but to use data collected before, say, 2013. The heaviest weighed was a young adult male of 212 kg., but he still had some growing to do and chances are some individuals recently seen well exceed that mark. The male below had a heel width of 13,5 cm. 

Watch the short and very robust fore-limbs and the deep chest. I know the snow accounts for some loss of length, but it's clear this male is as robust as they come:     


*This image is copyright of its original author
 

Although the conditions in the southern and southeastern part seem to be a bit better, the northern part of Sichote-Alin seems to produce the largest males.  

e - A few pictures

Tracking a male Amur tiger. When this photograp was taken, not one of the captured males exceeded 205 kg. in weight:  


*This image is copyright of its original author


Based on what I have (old and new information), I'd say tigers living just south of the Himalayas could be the largest wild big cats today (averages). This photograph (taken in Rajaji) was first posted by Roflcopters. I do not doubt some males in that part of India are close to 650 pounds (294,84 kg.):


*This image is copyright of its original author
 

Here's one from Bengt Berg (northern India, close to Bhutan). The heaviest tiger he shot was 565 pounds. He didn't shoot the male that left the print below in order to allow him to pass on his genes. Berg saw the 565-pound male and the Bhutan tiger from very close range. The tiger he didn't shoot was quite a bit bigger (well over 600 pounds). 

Although known as the 'Killer of Man', the giant from Bhutan hunted male wild buffalos only. Every buffalo he killed was found with his enormous horns sticking in the ground. Berg was very impressed and wrote he must have been immensely powerful:


*This image is copyright of its original author


f - Chaco jaguars

The table you and Dark Jaguar posted in this thread says wild male jaguars in the southern part of Brazil are very robust for their length. Same for the photographs i saw. Weightwise, the heaviest no doubt compare to the largest Amur tigresses. As these range between 8,0-10,0 cm. in heel width, it's very likely the Chaco male with a heel width of 10,0 cm. was about as heavy as the heaviest tigress. 

What's heavy in wild Amur tigresses today? There's not much information, but the heaviest captured in the period 1992-2012 ranged between 125-130 kg. In that period, the heaviest males ranged between 200-212 kg. 

About 50-100 years ago, when Amur tigers were on their way out, individuals well exceeding that mark (males and females), have been shot. One of the largest females I know of, although still youngish, was 367 pounds (166,47 kg.). 

As a result of the population bottleneck of the thirties, forties and fifties of the last century, Amur tigers today are a bit smaller. Individual variation also has been affected. But the Russians are very serious about protection and the number of tigers is increasing all the time. As the conditions have improved as well, chances are wild Amur tigers will produce more large individuals in the near future. 

Back to jaguars. When measuring skulls, I noticed that skulls from jaguars shot in the southwestern part of South America were larger (and more robust) than those of jaguars shot in the northern part. I saw a large skull from Argentina and a few large skulls from Bolivia. Those who hunted them (referring to a few people I met) confirmed jaguars in the southwestern part of South America, apart from a few exceptions (like the jaguar recently poached in Surinam), are bigger than their relatives living in the northern part. 

Same for pumas, so it seems. Some males and females seen in Patagonia and the southern part of Chili seem to be in a different league. Weight- and lengthwise, large pumas in Canada and the northwestern part of the USA compare, but the Patagonians seem to have bigger, more rounded and more robust skulls.   

I hope you'll be able to find out a bit more about jaguars living in the northern part of Argentina. My guess is they more or less compare to Pantanal jaguars. Same for Bolivia. Anything known about Paraguay?

To finish the post, two pictures. This male definitely compares to a large male Sumatran tiger:


*This image is copyright of its original author


Skull of a male rainforest leopard (central part of western Africa, left) and a male jaguar from Bolivia (right). The skull of the leopard is flatter, but not much shorter (just over 1 inch). The upper canines of the leopard are missing, but my guess is they would have compared for length. The main difference between both skulls is the jaguar skull is more elevated and more robust (heavier). Photograph taken by 'Wanderfalke' in the Staatliches Museum für Naturkunde Stuttgart, 2012. 

The largest leopard skulls can exceed 280 mm. in greatest total length, whereas large jaguar skulls exceed 300,00 mm. Although generally a bit shorter, large jaguar skulls compare to skulls of male Sumatran tigers in quite many respects. One of the largest jaguar I know is (was) in the Netherlands. Unfortunately, the owner of the skull got cold feet just before we were supposed to meet:  


*This image is copyright of its original author
So it looks like Amur tigers are starting to bounce back in size.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 09-05-2020

Thor 115kg



RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 09-06-2020

Ruxu's weight according to the Jaguar ID project:


*This image is copyright of its original author

@Dark Jaguar this is why I wanted you to double check with Tortoledo.