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+----- Thread: The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) (/topic-the-caspian-tiger-panthera-tigris-virgata)
RE: The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) - lfelipe86 - 07-01-2023
(12-20-2022, 04:03 PM)zulfu1903 Wrote: Here is a video footage of Soraya (famous Caspian tigress that loved in Hamburg zoo between 1955-60) i found on the internet. In the video she is the same enclosure with two male Siberians and seemingly in the heat. I wonder if she had any offsprings and if so what happened to them? Also i think the video presents nice chance to compare "streaks" between Caspian and Amur tigers even though genetically.they are considered the same (still bit of difference as Soraya had narrower and closely set stripes, and distinct tail rings as other Caspian tigers)
https://youtu.be/rjqnM3u_eXg
Caspian tigers and siberian tigers had a very large distribution! different populations have very similar or very different stripes patterns! i have found on the internet several siberian tigers with very caspian like stripes! this one has a very similar stripe pattern as one from iran from a photo by a iranian clan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SquBJUGZy4w
the others have very similar patern as one from a pelt from a iranian museum.
here are some photos for comparison:
i´m alternating caspian and siberian! to better compare them!
RE: The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) - lfelipe86 - 07-01-2023
This siberian tiger has very similar stripes as the caspian tiger killed in georgia in 1922!!!
RE: The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) - lfelipe86 - 07-01-2023
siberian tigers with very similar stripes as a caspian tiger pelt from iran!!
RE: The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) - lfelipe86 - 07-01-2023
The caspian tigers from central asia were more similar to siberian tigers than from caspian tigers from western regions!!
RE: The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) - zulfu1903 - 07-02-2023
It's been a while since I am comparing the stripe pattern of various Caspian tiger photos and illustrations available. Indeed, there is a huge variation, especially between westernmost (Turkey, Cauacusus) and Central Asian tigers. Western ones have rather narrow stripes. This is also noted by some zoologists like Ognev in 1935. Interestingly enough I was reading Schwarz's paper from 1936 where he described 2 new ssp. for the Caspian tigers. The "Ili tiger" is based on a specimen that lived in Berlin Zoo in the 1898-1910 period. Interestingly, Mastiche already describes 2 Caspian tigers in Berlin Zoo in 1897, so it seems there were at least 3 specimens in the zoo. And this colorized photo from 1899 is I assume the exact skin Schwarz described the Ili tiger (F.t.trabata) after it died - where he notes it has quite wide stripes! Thus in conclusion the stripe pattern is not a reliable method to describe between ssp due to huge variation. For Caspians based on what I learned the most reliable features are tail rings and the color of the stripes having the tendency to be brownish instead of black.
Schwarz's paper - https://archive.org/details/zoologischeranze47deut/page/351/mode/1up?view=theater
Berlin tiger with wide stipes:
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) - zulfu1903 - 07-02-2023
This is the specimen I mentioned in my previous reply - Broad striped Caspian tiger
deviantart.com/shanevalentine/art/Caspian-Tiger-Tigers-875896671
RE: The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) - lfelipe86 - 07-02-2023
Tail rings are not that reliable!! I have seen siberian tigers with very caspian like tails and Caspian tigers with siberian like tails, like the caspian tiger specimen at the turkish military school that has a very siberian like tail with the first 2 stripes going along it´s tail stead of forming rings!!! And the same regarding the collor of the stripes! Many siberian tigers have brownish stripes and many caspian with black stripes!!! take a look:
-The first photo is from the caspian tiger at the military school in Turkey! killed in 1910 is eastern anatolia! very siberian like tail!
-The second is from a siberian tigress with rings just like caspian tigers, specially the ones from around Iran!
-The others are tigers with brownish stripes and alternating patterns just like caspian tigers
It is impossible to distinguish caspian from siberian by their stripes and collor, after all they are the same subspecies that had a continuous distribution and bred for thousands of years!
RE: The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) - lfelipe86 - 07-02-2023
More siberian tigers with caspian like tail rings and brownish stripes!!!
RE: The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) - lfelipe86 - 07-02-2023
another siberian with caspian like tail!
RE: The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) - lfelipe86 - 07-02-2023
I also believe that Caspian tigers are not extinct!! The middle east and central asia are huge places and have very isolated areas that may stil hold small populations of caspian tigers! Specially Afghanistan where sightings by military personal have been reported in recent years and the same in southeastern Turkey where tigers were seen by night vision equipment! There is also a documentary called "On the trail of the hyrcan tiger" where they interview people that saw tigers in northern Iran!! The Iranian department found 15cm pug marks that are too big to be leopards!!!
RE: The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) - lfelipe86 - 07-02-2023
I also believe that southern Armenia and the Talysh mountains in Azerbaijan are places where caspian tigers may stil exist! The Zangezur mountains in Armenia are very isolated and the Talysh mountains are very close to Northwestern iran where tiger sightings were reported! In 1996 a caspian tiger sighting was reported in the Azerbaijan/Iran border! it is not certain but for sure possible in my opinion...
RE: The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) - lfelipe86 - 07-04-2023
This videos from Azerbaijan shows a caspian tiger!! The tiger has siberian like stripes!!! Can anyone tell what is saying about it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VTfZHqqXDQ
RE: The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) - zulfu1903 - 07-06-2023
As someone from Azerbaijan who has been in the South (Talysh mountains), it is highly unlikely. There are lots of small villages scattered around that part, potentially the smallest villages in the country, so if tigers existed definitely there would be news. Additionally, what's the source of this "1996 sighting", that's potentially leopard? As the name suggests the main locals in the area are Talysh people and they speak the Iranian language. And we (Azeri Turks) took the names of the tiger and leopard from Persian in the wrong order, so if Talysh/Iranian says they saw "peleng" it is a leopard in their language, but in Azeri means tiger. That's how many so-called "hunted specimens" ended up in the newspapers (even Gerptner included these "sightings" in his book). And actually, the Academy of Sciences in Azerbaijan ordered skins to examine from 1957 on and all turned out to be leopards! So any claim in this part should be considered cautiously. Lastly, the movie shows a tiger but not a Caspian tiger. It just says "There used to be tigers in here" and shows a "stock video" of what I believe is a Bengal tiger. There is only one video of the Caspian tiger (Soraya, a famous tigress from Hamburg) which i uploaded on Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjqnM3u_eXg&t=75s
RE: The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) - lfelipe86 - 07-06-2023
(07-06-2023, 01:28 AM)zulfu1903 Wrote: As someone from Azerbaijan who has been in the South (Talysh mountains), it is highly unlikely. There are lots of small villages scattered around that part, potentially the smallest villages in the country, so if tigers existed definitely there would be news. Additionally, what's the source of this "1996 sighting", that's potentially leopard? As the name suggests the main locals in the area are Talysh people and they speak the Iranian language. And we (Azeri Turks) took the names of the tiger and leopard from Persian in the wrong order, so if Talysh/Iranian says they saw "peleng" it is a leopard in their language, but in Azeri means tiger. That's how many so-called "hunted specimens" ended up in the newspapers (even Gerptner included these "sightings" in his book). And actually, the Academy of Sciences in Azerbaijan ordered skins to examine from 1957 on and all turned out to be leopards! So any claim in this part should be considered cautiously. Lastly, the movie shows a tiger but not a Caspian tiger. It just says "There used to be tigers in here" and shows a "stock video" of what I believe is a Bengal tiger. There is only one video of the Caspian tiger (Soraya, a famous tigress from Hamburg) which i uploaded on Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjqnM3u_eXg&t=75s
Thank you for clarifying! At least the other sightings seem more promising, like the ones from Turkey where the military personal identified the animal they saw in the night vision equipment as tigers(striped cats) (source: Status, Conservation and Management of Large Carnivores in Turkey) and the ones from Afghanistan and Iran! (source: Biodiversity Reconnaissance Survey In Darwaz Region, Badakhshan Province, Afghanistan and on the trail of the hyrcan tiger documentary)
RE: The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata) - GuateGojira - 07-06-2023
(07-06-2023, 01:28 AM)zulfu1903 Wrote: As someone from Azerbaijan who has been in the South (Talysh mountains), it is highly unlikely. There are lots of small villages scattered around that part, potentially the smallest villages in the country, so if tigers existed definitely there would be news. Additionally, what's the source of this "1996 sighting", that's potentially leopard? As the name suggests the main locals in the area are Talysh people and they speak the Iranian language. And we (Azeri Turks) took the names of the tiger and leopard from Persian in the wrong order, so if Talysh/Iranian says they saw "peleng" it is a leopard in their language, but in Azeri means tiger. That's how many so-called "hunted specimens" ended up in the newspapers (even Gerptner included these "sightings" in his book). And actually, the Academy of Sciences in Azerbaijan ordered skins to examine from 1957 on and all turned out to be leopards! So any claim in this part should be considered cautiously. Lastly, the movie shows a tiger but not a Caspian tiger. It just says "There used to be tigers in here" and shows a "stock video" of what I believe is a Bengal tiger. There is only one video of the Caspian tiger (Soraya, a famous tigress from Hamburg) which i uploaded on Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjqnM3u_eXg&t=75s
Thank you very much for sharing this video. I don't know what to say, I have a mix of feelings watching this video. The first time that I see a Caspian tiger in video ALIVE, but also the last time.
I know that genetically speaking Amur and Caspian are one and the same, but even then, these were separated populations with they own adaptations, is like two human populations from different history and culture. You can fill the gap, but you can never replace something that is unique.