(04-15-2019, 01:00 PM)Luipaard Wrote: And do you know what kind of leopard your zoo has? You can't compare a small leopard subspecies with a large subspecies of jaguar. 

(04-16-2019, 07:49 PM)Wolverine Wrote:

(04-15-2019, 01:00 PM)Luipaard Wrote: And do you know what kind of leopard your zoo has? You can't compare a small leopard subspecies with a large subspecies of jaguar. 

3 are from East Africa, 2 are Persian (the most beautifull specimens I've ever seen with nice elongated body). I don't know the origin of the 3 jaguars, most probably from Brazil. Again jaguars are 1,5-2 times more massive, I have seen them hundred times. I don't talk so much about linear size - length or height but about immense, almost bear-like robustness of the jaguars. Look how jaguar is walking, almost like a bear, for sure not gracious like other cats. In same linear dimentions of jaguar you could place 1,5 leopards, which are much more slender.

Pantanal is famous as place where big jaguars could be easily spotted. But I dont think that jaguars from other parts of Brazil are much smaller. Amazon rain forest in Brazil and surrounding countries comprise 90% of jaguars in the world and they all are more or less big, not far in size to Pantanals jaguars. True, jaguars from South Mexico are much smaller and have a size of leopards, but their number is insignificant in comparison with jaguars from the endless Amazon forest and they are not representative for the specie. If we get the smallest leopard subspecie - Arabian they are definetily smaller than southern Mexican jaguars, with females Arabian leopards having average body mass of 20 kg... and some of them even 15 kg...

The size of Amazon:

*This image is copyright of its original author

So, lets not turn upsite down a fact that everybody should know from the school - that jaguar is by far the third largest cat in the world.

Quote:Again jaguars are 1,5-2 times more massive

Quote:Look how jaguar is walking, almost like a bear, for sure not gracious like other cats

Quote:In same linear dimentions of jaguar you could place 1,5 leopards, which are much more slender.

Quote:jaguars from South Mexico are much smaller and have a size of leopards

Quote:If we get the smallest leopard subspecie - Arabian they are definetily smaller than southern Mexican jaguars, with females Arabian leopards having average body mass of 20 kg... and some of them even 15 kg...

Quote:So, lets not turn upsite down a fact that everybody should know from the school - that jaguar is by far the third largest cat in the world.

(04-17-2019, 11:31 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(04-16-2019, 07:49 PM)Wolverine Wrote:

(04-15-2019, 01:00 PM)Luipaard Wrote: And do you know what kind of leopard your zoo has? You can't compare a small leopard subspecies with a large subspecies of jaguar. 

3 are from East Africa, 2 are Persian (the most beautifull specimens I've ever seen with nice elongated body). I don't know the origin of the 3 jaguars, most probably from Brazil. Again jaguars are 1,5-2 times more massive, I have seen them hundred times. I don't talk so much about linear size - length or height but about immense, almost bear-like robustness of the jaguars. Look how jaguar is walking, almost like a bear, for sure not gracious like other cats. In same linear dimentions of jaguar you could place 1,5 leopards, which are much more slender.

Pantanal is famous as place where big jaguars could be easily spotted. But I dont think that jaguars from other parts of Brazil are much smaller. Amazon rain forest in Brazil and surrounding countries comprise 90% of jaguars in the world and they all are more or less big, not far in size to Pantanals jaguars. True, jaguars from South Mexico are much smaller and have a size of leopards, but their number is insignificant in comparison with jaguars from the endless Amazon forest and they are not representative for the specie. If we get the smallest leopard subspecie - Arabian they are definetily smaller than southern Mexican jaguars, with females Arabian leopards having average body mass of 20 kg... and some of them even 15 kg...

The size of Amazon:

*This image is copyright of its original author

So, lets not turn upsite down a fact that everybody should know from the school - that jaguar is by far the third largest cat in the world.

Quote:Again jaguars are 1,5-2 times more massive

Again, depends which leopard subspecies you're using for your comparison. For example, I would say a jaguar is even 3 times more massive than an Arabian leopard. But same can be said about a Central African leopard, who makes an Arabian leopard look like a different species.

Quote:Look how jaguar is walking, almost like a bear, for sure not gracious like other cats

That has more to do with how they're built overall (e.g. shorter limbs). Check out the anatomy of a jaguar and you know what I'm talking about.

Quote:In same linear dimentions of jaguar you could place 1,5 leopards, which are much more slender.

Again, depends of which subspecies of leopard. Yes, overall they're more slender. But let's not forget that there are bigger, more robust subspecies of leopards out there.

This particular male for example, will be equal next to a Pantanal jaguar

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Which is what I'm constantly trying to say; they overlap in size.

Quote:jaguars from South Mexico are much smaller and have a size of leopards

Not only South Mexico, whole Central America: an adult male from Belize averages 57kg and two male jaguars from the Peruvian Amazon weighed 31 and 37kg for example.

Quote:If we get the smallest leopard subspecie - Arabian they are definetily smaller than southern Mexican jaguars, with females Arabian leopards having average body mass of 20 kg... and some of them even 15 kg...

Well that is my point, they overlap in size (and bulk for some leopard subspecies.).

Quote:So, lets not turn upsite down a fact that everybody should know from the school - that jaguar is by far the third largest cat in the world.

Well I never denied that. What I do know from school is that jaguars weigh 100kg and leopards about 60kg. And that's partly true.

My point is that they overlap in pretty much everything, nothing more, nothing less.

(04-16-2019, 05:09 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(04-16-2019, 03:40 PM)Arctotherium Wrote: Anatolian Leopard is largest Leopard(With African Leopard)

You can't make such claim without presenting data backup.

From what i see, other than Javan & Arabian most leopards subspecies seem to have similar weight range of 50-100kg (males). 
Beyond this point you'd ideally need scores of readings to guesstimate any average. 

@Pckts some populations are more numerous than others, that plays a big role in number of massive leopards people posing at tricky angles with. 
Plus conflict animals are never cream of the crop... If India didn't discontinue sport-hunting then I'm sure we'd have more images of people killng off our largest leopards.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

(04-17-2019, 12:16 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(04-17-2019, 11:31 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(04-16-2019, 07:49 PM)Wolverine Wrote:

(04-15-2019, 01:00 PM)Luipaard Wrote: And do you know what kind of leopard your zoo has? You can't compare a small leopard subspecies with a large subspecies of jaguar. 

3 are from East Africa, 2 are Persian (the most beautifull specimens I've ever seen with nice elongated body). I don't know the origin of the 3 jaguars, most probably from Brazil. Again jaguars are 1,5-2 times more massive, I have seen them hundred times. I don't talk so much about linear size - length or height but about immense, almost bear-like robustness of the jaguars. Look how jaguar is walking, almost like a bear, for sure not gracious like other cats. In same linear dimentions of jaguar you could place 1,5 leopards, which are much more slender.

Pantanal is famous as place where big jaguars could be easily spotted. But I dont think that jaguars from other parts of Brazil are much smaller. Amazon rain forest in Brazil and surrounding countries comprise 90% of jaguars in the world and they all are more or less big, not far in size to Pantanals jaguars. True, jaguars from South Mexico are much smaller and have a size of leopards, but their number is insignificant in comparison with jaguars from the endless Amazon forest and they are not representative for the specie. If we get the smallest leopard subspecie - Arabian they are definetily smaller than southern Mexican jaguars, with females Arabian leopards having average body mass of 20 kg... and some of them even 15 kg...

The size of Amazon:

*This image is copyright of its original author

So, lets not turn upsite down a fact that everybody should know from the school - that jaguar is by far the third largest cat in the world.

Quote:Again jaguars are 1,5-2 times more massive

Again, depends which leopard subspecies you're using for your comparison. For example, I would say a jaguar is even 3 times more massive than an Arabian leopard. But same can be said about a Central African leopard, who makes an Arabian leopard look like a different species.

Quote:Look how jaguar is walking, almost like a bear, for sure not gracious like other cats

That has more to do with how they're built overall (e.g. shorter limbs). Check out the anatomy of a jaguar and you know what I'm talking about.

Quote:In same linear dimentions of jaguar you could place 1,5 leopards, which are much more slender.

Again, depends of which subspecies of leopard. Yes, overall they're more slender. But let's not forget that there are bigger, more robust subspecies of leopards out there.

This particular male for example, will be equal next to a Pantanal jaguar

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Which is what I'm constantly trying to say; they overlap in size.

Quote:jaguars from South Mexico are much smaller and have a size of leopards

Not only South Mexico, whole Central America: an adult male from Belize averages 57kg and two male jaguars from the Peruvian Amazon weighed 31 and 37kg for example.

Quote:If we get the smallest leopard subspecie - Arabian they are definetily smaller than southern Mexican jaguars, with females Arabian leopards having average body mass of 20 kg... and some of them even 15 kg...

Well that is my point, they overlap in size (and bulk for some leopard subspecies.).

Quote:So, lets not turn upsite down a fact that everybody should know from the school - that jaguar is by far the third largest cat in the world.

Well I never denied that. What I do know from school is that jaguars weigh 100kg and leopards about 60kg. And that's partly true.

My point is that they overlap in pretty much everything, nothing more, nothing less.

Just to put this in simple way. Leopards aren´t as big as jaguars overall. Some exceptional individuals aren´t same as average. This discussion has started to be ridiculous and it looks like a good time to stop repeating things over and over again. Of course not my decision, but my opinion.

(04-17-2019, 03:29 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(04-17-2019, 12:16 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(04-17-2019, 11:31 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(04-16-2019, 07:49 PM)Wolverine Wrote:

(04-15-2019, 01:00 PM)Luipaard Wrote: And do you know what kind of leopard your zoo has? You can't compare a small leopard subspecies with a large subspecies of jaguar. 

3 are from East Africa, 2 are Persian (the most beautifull specimens I've ever seen with nice elongated body). I don't know the origin of the 3 jaguars, most probably from Brazil. Again jaguars are 1,5-2 times more massive, I have seen them hundred times. I don't talk so much about linear size - length or height but about immense, almost bear-like robustness of the jaguars. Look how jaguar is walking, almost like a bear, for sure not gracious like other cats. In same linear dimentions of jaguar you could place 1,5 leopards, which are much more slender.

Pantanal is famous as place where big jaguars could be easily spotted. But I dont think that jaguars from other parts of Brazil are much smaller. Amazon rain forest in Brazil and surrounding countries comprise 90% of jaguars in the world and they all are more or less big, not far in size to Pantanals jaguars. True, jaguars from South Mexico are much smaller and have a size of leopards, but their number is insignificant in comparison with jaguars from the endless Amazon forest and they are not representative for the specie. If we get the smallest leopard subspecie - Arabian they are definetily smaller than southern Mexican jaguars, with females Arabian leopards having average body mass of 20 kg... and some of them even 15 kg...

The size of Amazon:

*This image is copyright of its original author

So, lets not turn upsite down a fact that everybody should know from the school - that jaguar is by far the third largest cat in the world.

Quote:Again jaguars are 1,5-2 times more massive

Again, depends which leopard subspecies you're using for your comparison. For example, I would say a jaguar is even 3 times more massive than an Arabian leopard. But same can be said about a Central African leopard, who makes an Arabian leopard look like a different species.

Quote:Look how jaguar is walking, almost like a bear, for sure not gracious like other cats

That has more to do with how they're built overall (e.g. shorter limbs). Check out the anatomy of a jaguar and you know what I'm talking about.

Quote:In same linear dimentions of jaguar you could place 1,5 leopards, which are much more slender.

Again, depends of which subspecies of leopard. Yes, overall they're more slender. But let's not forget that there are bigger, more robust subspecies of leopards out there.

This particular male for example, will be equal next to a Pantanal jaguar

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Which is what I'm constantly trying to say; they overlap in size.

Quote:jaguars from South Mexico are much smaller and have a size of leopards

Not only South Mexico, whole Central America: an adult male from Belize averages 57kg and two male jaguars from the Peruvian Amazon weighed 31 and 37kg for example.

Quote:If we get the smallest leopard subspecie - Arabian they are definetily smaller than southern Mexican jaguars, with females Arabian leopards having average body mass of 20 kg... and some of them even 15 kg...

Well that is my point, they overlap in size (and bulk for some leopard subspecies.).

Quote:So, lets not turn upsite down a fact that everybody should know from the school - that jaguar is by far the third largest cat in the world.

Well I never denied that. What I do know from school is that jaguars weigh 100kg and leopards about 60kg. And that's partly true.

My point is that they overlap in pretty much everything, nothing more, nothing less.

Just to put this in simple way. Leopards aren´t as big as jaguars overall. Some exceptional individuals aren´t same as average. This discussion has started to be ridiculous and it looks like a good time to stop repeating things over and over again. Of course not my decision, but my opinion.

I know they're bigger overall. I never denied that. Also, I think it's a healthy discussion with some good points and arguments.

It's just my opinion and I'll stop repeating it for you so here it is for the last time: yes, some leopard subspecies overlap with Pantanal jaguars, not in averages but still. The same applies to South American jaguars who overlap in size and weight with lionesses.

(04-17-2019, 11:31 AM)Luipaard Wrote: This particular male for example, will be equal next to a Pantanal jaguar

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

(04-17-2019, 12:18 PM)Arctotherium Wrote: https://bigcatrescue.org/anatolian-leopards/
This link says Anatolian Leopard bigger than African Leopard.

(04-17-2019, 04:32 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(04-17-2019, 11:31 AM)Luipaard Wrote: This particular male for example, will be equal next to a Pantanal jaguar

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

See, that's the issue with photo comparison.
How do we know how big that leopard was? We all can see he's very well-built like a jaguar, but you can't know if he's 6 inches shorter than the average jaguar or not...

A few special leopards may definitely be almost as large as, or even a bit larger, than below average jaguars of Pantanal subspecies... but that's like some of both overlapping with 140kg male lions or sumatran male tigers who maybe upto 120kg.

(04-17-2019, 12:18 PM)Arctotherium Wrote: https://bigcatrescue.org/anatolian-leopards/
This link says Anatolian Leopard bigger than African Leopard.

Firstly, thanks for the source. But it's just some random article from 13 years ago.
Also aren't Anatolian leopards just a western metapopulation of Persian ones? It was never a recognised subspecies.

Secondly, all i found was: ...Some of the leopards that he killed were over 100 kgs.
That is/was true for Indian, Amur, Sri Lankan, African, Persian etc. leopards too & not enough to call them "slightly bulkier than their African cousins".

But most importantly, what I'm interested in is, how many leopards are still alive in Turkey?
What is the standard of protection for them over there?

Quote:"It should be borne in mind that these huge swamp jaguars from the Pantanal (and Llanos) prey routinely on cattle and generally live very easy lives. Under more natural circumstances they probably wouldn't be so big and bulky. I'm more interested in the jaguars which persist on wild prey like peccaries and tapirs, these are the true jaguars IMO. In the Paraguayan Chaco which is adjacent to the Pantanal, jaguars live on an entirely natural diet and the average weight of 8 adult males there was 88.5kg. Same genetics but no easy prey."

Quote:"Nonetheless, I think it’s safe to say the jaguar generally is a more robust or powerfully built animal than other felids with which it overlaps in size. However, the difference probably isn’t as extreme as a lot of people seem to believe and there will certainly be a lot of overlap due to individual variation."

(04-18-2019, 10:40 AM)Arctotherium Wrote:

(04-17-2019, 04:32 PM)Rishi Wrote: But most importantly, what I'm interested in is, how many leopards are still alive in Turkey?
What is the standard of protection for them over there?

In Turkey,Anatolian Leopard is extinct.But It can come back(Looks like Cave Lion,Mammoth and others)

(04-18-2019, 11:20 AM)Luipaard Wrote: This is from a very knowledgeable person from another forum. I fully agree with this:

Quote:"It should be borne in mind that these huge swamp jaguars from the Pantanal (and Llanos) prey routinely on cattle and generally live very easy lives. Under more natural circumstances they probably wouldn't be so big and bulky. I'm more interested in the jaguars which persist on wild prey like peccaries and tapirs, these are the true jaguars IMO. In the Paraguayan Chaco which is adjacent to the Pantanal, jaguars live on an entirely natural diet and the average weight of 8 adult males there was 88.5kg. Same genetics but no easy prey."

Quote:"Nonetheless, I think it’s safe to say the jaguar generally is a more robust or powerfully built animal than other felids with which it overlaps in size. However, the difference probably isn’t as extreme as a lot of people seem to believe and there will certainly be a lot of overlap due to individual variation."

(04-18-2019, 11:20 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

Quote:"It should be borne in mind that these huge swamp jaguars from the Pantanal (and Llanos) prey routinely on cattle and generally live very easy lives.