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+---- Thread: Bears of the Pleistocene (/topic-bears-of-the-pleistocene)
RE: Bears of the Pleistocene - tigerluver - 11-29-2016
Regarding the Slovenija cave bear skull, I can't say if the basal length was an estimate or not without the original document. Do you have the title of this paper? Nonetheless, usually papers give solid data and estimates are conservative, 485 mm basal must be correct.
From Grandale-d'Anglade and Lopez-Gonzalez (2003), the average basal length in males was 427.40 mm and the total length 482.60 mm (total length/basal length ratio = 1.13). For females, the average basal length was 373.80 mm and total length was 417.00 mm (total length/basal length ratio = 1.116). Using the male ratio, the skull would have a total length of 548 mm.
You know better than me on modern bear skulls, how does that compare?
I'll check out the other skull in a while too. Awesome finds!
RE: Bears of the Pleistocene - GrizzlyClaws - 11-29-2016
More modern Brown bear measurement provided by Warsaw.
But consider the Brown bear and Cave bear were two different species, so it is appropriate to compare them?
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Bears of the Pleistocene - tigerluver - 11-29-2016
Not too appropriate to compare them without skeletal data on the cave bear. That is what I am looking for at the moment.
I had found a good chunk of skeletal data regarding relatively unknown fossil bears like the African Agriotherium. I have been planning to make an easier to read figure/table with such data, but due to time constraints I'm stuck on the planning phase. Here is the book:
Annals of the South African Museum. Annale van die Suid-Afrikaanse Museum.
RE: Bears of the Pleistocene - GrizzlyClaws - 11-29-2016
At least it gives us a hint about the max GSL for the largest Ursid skull in the history.
Maybe 60 cm is way too much, I guess 55 cm is pretty close.
RE: Bears of the Pleistocene - tigerluver - 11-29-2016
So this is the paper with the 485 mm basal length skull:
NEW LOCALITY OF CAVE BEAR (Ursus spelaeus Rosenmüller & Heinroth, 1794) IN BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA: MORPHOANATOMICAL CHARACTERISTICS OF CRANIAL SKELETON FOUND IN CAVE AT VRELO MOKRANJSKA MILJACKA
The table is found on p. 104 (actual listed page, if using a pdf reader insert p. 111 into the page searcher).
And another excellent paper on postcranial cave bear morphology:
Morphometry of the limb bones of the Ursus spelaeus ROSENMÜLLER, 1794 from Valstrona (Piedmont-Northern Italy)
RE: Bears of the Pleistocene - GrizzlyClaws - 11-29-2016
@tigerluver
Also, notice the post #145, the canine alveoli of that 521 mm Arctodus simus skull is also about 50 mm.
RE: Bears of the Pleistocene - brotherbear - 11-29-2016
For a comparison: Largest Boone and Crockett Skulls:
Alaskan Brown Bear: Length 19 and 13/16 ... Width 17 and 14/16 ... Total Score 30 and 12/16.
Polar Bear: Length 18 and 8/16 ... Width 11 and 7/16 ... Total Score 29 and 15/16.
From http://shaggygod.proboards.com/ the record total of the Kamchatka brown bear: 30 and 11/16.
Reply
RE: Bears of the Pleistocene - Pckts - 11-29-2016
(11-29-2016, 05:05 AM)brotherbear Wrote: For a comparison: Largest Boone and Crockett Skulls:
Alaskan Brown Bear: Length 19 and 13/16 ... Width 17 and 14/16 ... Total Score 30 and 12/16.
Polar Bear: Length 18 and 8/16 ... Width 11 and 7/16 ... Total Score 29 and 15/16.
From http://shaggygod.proboards.com/ the record total of the Kamchatka brown bear: 30 and 11/16.
Reply
So very close to this skull
*This image is copyright of its original author
Is the width unknown?
I'm sure the sample size is quite small compared to extant bears though, so I'm sure there are larger skulls that this, obviously a very big bear.
RE: Bears of the Pleistocene - GrizzlyClaws - 11-29-2016
@Pckts
The greatest skull length is 521 mm, so the width should be about 372 mm.
RE: Bears of the Pleistocene - brotherbear - 11-29-2016
After looking at short-faced bear skulls it is rather obvious that at equal length, the skull of a short-faced bear was heavier than that of a brown bear or polar bear. In fact, they appear similar in some respects to the skull of a big cat.
RE: Bears of the Pleistocene - GrizzlyClaws - 11-29-2016
The SF bear is inferior in term of the robustness of the torso and limbs, but their skull is quite monstrous in proportion.
The largest Cave bear may be about 3 cm longer, but the SF bear skull won other departments. And it looks more vaulted than any other bear skull.
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Bears of the Pleistocene - brotherbear - 11-29-2016
More vaulted; could the short-faced bears have been even "brainier" that today's bears, or is the brain-case similar?
RE: Bears of the Pleistocene - GrizzlyClaws - 11-30-2016
It could be, since the tiger skull is also more vaulted than other cat skull, therefore they are "brainier" as well.
And last time you also asked about the canine size of the SF bear, and the specimen from Yukon possesses the canine alveoli of 2 inches, that is much larger than the 5 inches resin cast canine from the Bone Clone, definitely no less than 6 inches.
RE: Bears of the Pleistocene - brotherbear - 12-23-2016
( in my own words )... Life in Pleistocene North America greatly affected the attitude of the grizzly. The first brown bears began in Pleistocene China. Unlike both the Asiatic and American black bears, a grizzly does not escape danger by scampering up a tall tree. A grizzly has only two choices, run or fight. In most cases, his choice is fight. Although a grizzly can run 30 mph, most predators are some faster. All of Pleistocene planet Earth was teaming with mega-fauna, but Pleistocene North America was like Africa on steroids.
Imagine a mother grizzly with cubs to protect. She had to deal with grey wolves and dire wolves, scimitar cats and saber-toothed cats, giant jaguars and giant lions, male grizzlies and giant short-faced bears. And what were the chances of a three-year-old sub-adult grizzly his first season out on his own?
Probably a small percentage of Pleistocene grizzlies survived to become mature adults. Those that did had probably acquired a vicious wolverine-like attitude. And thus the tales told by the early American pioneers; preceding the modern rifle.
RE: Bears of the Pleistocene - GrizzlyClaws - 12-23-2016
The modern American Grizzlies were the last wave of the Brown bears that being successfully infiltrated into North America.
There were also many Brown bear population that preceded the Grizzlies, but they didn't manage to conquer the whole continent like their later successors.