(02-10-2024, 10:27 AM)Hello Wrote: @johnny rex

Etosha lions of Basel zoo. Mbali, Okoa and Uma

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Some of their progeny
Cabara, St louis zoo, USA

Catali, Jacksonville zoo, USA

*This image is copyright of its original author

Majo, Leipzig zoo, Germany

*This image is copyright of its original author

Abamboo, Zlin Lesna, Czech republic

2 female offspring next to Mbali at right and left. Uma at far right

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.zoobasel.ch/en/aktuelles/news/727/vier-junge-loewen-im-zoo-basel/

*This image is copyright of its original author

Currently in Madikwe, Etosha are mixed with kgalagadi as Addo males and Kwandwe males are introduced and lions at  Addo are of Kgalagadi origin, not sure of Kwandwe, but defininetly not pure Etosha, could be mix of southern population or Kgalagadi or Kalahari region of Botswana . Madikwe was full of Etosha lions until circa 2010-14. But still there are some pure Etosha in Madikwe now.

(02-10-2024, 06:13 PM)johnny rex Wrote:

(02-10-2024, 10:27 AM)Hello Wrote: @johnny rex

Etosha lions of Basel zoo. Mbali, Okoa and Uma

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Some of their progeny
Cabara, St louis zoo, USA

Catali, Jacksonville zoo, USA

*This image is copyright of its original author

Majo, Leipzig zoo, Germany

*This image is copyright of its original author

Abamboo, Zlin Lesna, Czech republic

2 female offspring next to Mbali at right and left. Uma at far right

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.zoobasel.ch/en/aktuelles/news/727/vier-junge-loewen-im-zoo-basel/

*This image is copyright of its original author

Currently in Madikwe, Etosha are mixed with kgalagadi as Addo males and Kwandwe males are introduced and lions at  Addo are of Kgalagadi origin, not sure of Kwandwe, but defininetly not pure Etosha, could be mix of southern population or Kgalagadi or Kalahari region of Botswana . Madikwe was full of Etosha lions until circa 2010-14. But still there are some pure Etosha in Madikwe now.

Etosha lions and Kgalagadi lions are both from the same subspecies as Kruger lions, right? Tall, big long face, etc.

(10-19-2014, 02:55 PM)peter Wrote: ZOOLOGISCHER GARTEN, BERLIN

Last week, I was in Berlin. This great city has two zoos, about 9 miles apart. We only had time for the 'Zoologischer Garten' in the city centre. This zoo has many animals seen nowhere else. The most remarkable were the barasingha (a large Indian swamp deer), Pere David's deer (a large deer that became extinct in the wild at the turn of the last century, but was able to survive as a a result of captive specimens in the Berlin Zoo and an estate in the UK), the fossa (Madagaskar tree predator), the Java leopard (I never saw one before) as well as many others.

The Himalayan black bear, an oldish male, was as wide as a decent truck. He was closely followed by the Indian sloth bear. The jaguars were sturdy, massive and heavy, but not large. This was not true for the lions.

I wasn't able to figure out where they came from, but the male was the most muscular I ever saw. Definitely very close to the large male in a Scandinavian zoo discussed recently, but, in my opinion, much more developed. I didn't see any fat anywhere and he has it all: a large skull, a great mane, a massive upper body, tall and, to wind it up, a long body. A classic male lion, but in the hors category. I will not forget about the hind legs. It seemed as if he had been selected to tow carts and developed even after that. The lioness was much smaller, but as robust. 

We were able to see him at close range (6 feet or a little more). As the crowd admiring his classic features had a few well over 220 pounds, I was able to get to a guesstimate. My bet for now would be 3.5-3.6 at the shoulder standing, 9.6-9.8 in total length or a trifle more and 540-570 pounds, maybe even a bit more. I don't think there was much room for big mistakes. The main thing to remember, apart from his hind legs, was, as always in lions, the body. Massive and muscular. Skull large, wide and heavy. Power.

The three tigers all belong to Panthera tigris corbetti. This subspecies isn't often seen in zoos. Compared to the lioness, the two tigresses were taller, longer, more developed in the legs and much more active. The lioness, however, could have had a few pounds on them in the end. My guesstimate would be 300-320 pounds for all and no fat anywhere. The male tiger was a very nice one. Tall, long, well-proportioned, very muscular legs, a small mane and a rounded, quite large, skull. Stripes black, narrow, long and numerous. Ground colour a trifle paler than in many Indian tigers. Between 360-400 pounds, I think. The main thing to remember, as in most tigers, was the legs and the athleticism oozing from the well-proportioned bodies. Speed and power. 

DEBATES

When my companions had a small, but heated, debate as to the possible outcome of a bout between the male lion and the male tiger, some of the Germans in the crowd overheard us and offered their opinion. It is true, they said, the lion is larger and heavier, but tigers are faster and more 'aggressive'. Advantage lion, but not a walk-over by any means, it was concluded. I was a bit surprised about the outcome of the debate, as we know it usually goes with weight in male tigers. There's no reason to assume it would be much different in engagements between male lions or males of both species, but apparently not everyone agreed.

Debates on lions and tigers compare to those on soccer. You just never know, but everyone is prepared to offer an opinion in spite of that. Could be interesting, if those involved only could have been able to refrain from teapot observations and insult. The point is things in the similar weight and age division are close to unpredictable. This is why most were not prepared to bet on the outcome of a fight.

It is a great pity animals forums keen on a long life have to refrain from offering the opportunity to debate. We could learn a lot from those who have a bit of experience or knowledge, but can't as a result of the inability or the unwillingness to debate. A debate, almost by definition, is about things that are undecided. This prospect, apparently, is too much to bear for most. The experience in the Zoologischer Garten, however, says it can be done if those involved are willing to accept a few rules.    

Anyhow, we spend many hours in the zoo and the restaurant wasn't bad either. And all this in the very pleasant October sun for extras. How lucky can you get. Photographs to be posted later.

(03-04-2024, 03:40 PM)Hello Wrote:

(10-19-2014, 02:55 PM)peter Wrote: ZOOLOGISCHER GARTEN, BERLIN

Last week, I was in Berlin. This great city has two zoos, about 9 miles apart. We only had time for the 'Zoologischer Garten' in the city centre. This zoo has many animals seen nowhere else. The most remarkable were the barasingha (a large Indian swamp deer), Pere David's deer (a large deer that became extinct in the wild at the turn of the last century, but was able to survive as a a result of captive specimens in the Berlin Zoo and an estate in the UK), the fossa (Madagaskar tree predator), the Java leopard (I never saw one before) as well as many others.

The Himalayan black bear, an oldish male, was as wide as a decent truck. He was closely followed by the Indian sloth bear. The jaguars were sturdy, massive and heavy, but not large. This was not true for the lions.

I wasn't able to figure out where they came from, but the male was the most muscular I ever saw. Definitely very close to the large male in a Scandinavian zoo discussed recently, but, in my opinion, much more developed. I didn't see any fat anywhere and he has it all: a large skull, a great mane, a massive upper body, tall and, to wind it up, a long body. A classic male lion, but in the hors category. I will not forget about the hind legs. It seemed as if he had been selected to tow carts and developed even after that. The lioness was much smaller, but as robust. 

We were able to see him at close range (6 feet or a little more). As the crowd admiring his classic features had a few well over 220 pounds, I was able to get to a guesstimate. My bet for now would be 3.5-3.6 at the shoulder standing, 9.6-9.8 in total length or a trifle more and 540-570 pounds, maybe even a bit more. I don't think there was much room for big mistakes. The main thing to remember, apart from his hind legs, was, as always in lions, the body. Massive and muscular. Skull large, wide and heavy. Power.

The three tigers all belong to Panthera tigris corbetti. This subspecies isn't often seen in zoos. Compared to the lioness, the two tigresses were taller, longer, more developed in the legs and much more active. The lioness, however, could have had a few pounds on them in the end. My guesstimate would be 300-320 pounds for all and no fat anywhere. The male tiger was a very nice one. Tall, long, well-proportioned, very muscular legs, a small mane and a rounded, quite large, skull. Stripes black, narrow, long and numerous. Ground colour a trifle paler than in many Indian tigers. Between 360-400 pounds, I think. The main thing to remember, as in most tigers, was the legs and the athleticism oozing from the well-proportioned bodies. Speed and power. 

DEBATES

When my companions had a small, but heated, debate as to the possible outcome of a bout between the male lion and the male tiger, some of the Germans in the crowd overheard us and offered their opinion. It is true, they said, the lion is larger and heavier, but tigers are faster and more 'aggressive'. Advantage lion, but not a walk-over by any means, it was concluded. I was a bit surprised about the outcome of the debate, as we know it usually goes with weight in male tigers. There's no reason to assume it would be much different in engagements between male lions or males of both species, but apparently not everyone agreed.

Debates on lions and tigers compare to those on soccer. You just never know, but everyone is prepared to offer an opinion in spite of that. Could be interesting, if those involved only could have been able to refrain from teapot observations and insult. The point is things in the similar weight and age division are close to unpredictable. This is why most were not prepared to bet on the outcome of a fight.

It is a great pity animals forums keen on a long life have to refrain from offering the opportunity to debate. We could learn a lot from those who have a bit of experience or knowledge, but can't as a result of the inability or the unwillingness to debate. A debate, almost by definition, is about things that are undecided. This prospect, apparently, is too much to bear for most. The experience in the Zoologischer Garten, however, says it can be done if those involved are willing to accept a few rules.    

Anyhow, we spend many hours in the zoo and the restaurant wasn't bad either. And all this in the very pleasant October sun for extras. How lucky can you get. Photographs to be posted later.

Good guesstimate for the lion. A massive individual and lioness is slim and muscular. Here are they.
Aru and Aketi

(03-11-2024, 01:44 PM)johnny rex Wrote:

(03-04-2024, 03:40 PM)Hello Wrote:

(10-19-2014, 02:55 PM)peter Wrote: ZOOLOGISCHER GARTEN, BERLIN

Last week, I was in Berlin. This great city has two zoos, about 9 miles apart. We only had time for the 'Zoologischer Garten' in the city centre. This zoo has many animals seen nowhere else. The most remarkable were the barasingha (a large Indian swamp deer), Pere David's deer (a large deer that became extinct in the wild at the turn of the last century, but was able to survive as a a result of captive specimens in the Berlin Zoo and an estate in the UK), the fossa (Madagaskar tree predator), the Java leopard (I never saw one before) as well as many others.

The Himalayan black bear, an oldish male, was as wide as a decent truck. He was closely followed by the Indian sloth bear. The jaguars were sturdy, massive and heavy, but not large. This was not true for the lions.

I wasn't able to figure out where they came from, but the male was the most muscular I ever saw. Definitely very close to the large male in a Scandinavian zoo discussed recently, but, in my opinion, much more developed. I didn't see any fat anywhere and he has it all: a large skull, a great mane, a massive upper body, tall and, to wind it up, a long body. A classic male lion, but in the hors category. I will not forget about the hind legs. It seemed as if he had been selected to tow carts and developed even after that. The lioness was much smaller, but as robust. 

We were able to see him at close range (6 feet or a little more). As the crowd admiring his classic features had a few well over 220 pounds, I was able to get to a guesstimate. My bet for now would be 3.5-3.6 at the shoulder standing, 9.6-9.8 in total length or a trifle more and 540-570 pounds, maybe even a bit more. I don't think there was much room for big mistakes. The main thing to remember, apart from his hind legs, was, as always in lions, the body. Massive and muscular. Skull large, wide and heavy. Power.

The three tigers all belong to Panthera tigris corbetti. This subspecies isn't often seen in zoos. Compared to the lioness, the two tigresses were taller, longer, more developed in the legs and much more active. The lioness, however, could have had a few pounds on them in the end. My guesstimate would be 300-320 pounds for all and no fat anywhere. The male tiger was a very nice one. Tall, long, well-proportioned, very muscular legs, a small mane and a rounded, quite large, skull. Stripes black, narrow, long and numerous. Ground colour a trifle paler than in many Indian tigers. Between 360-400 pounds, I think. The main thing to remember, as in most tigers, was the legs and the athleticism oozing from the well-proportioned bodies. Speed and power. 

DEBATES

When my companions had a small, but heated, debate as to the possible outcome of a bout between the male lion and the male tiger, some of the Germans in the crowd overheard us and offered their opinion. It is true, they said, the lion is larger and heavier, but tigers are faster and more 'aggressive'. Advantage lion, but not a walk-over by any means, it was concluded. I was a bit surprised about the outcome of the debate, as we know it usually goes with weight in male tigers. There's no reason to assume it would be much different in engagements between male lions or males of both species, but apparently not everyone agreed.

Debates on lions and tigers compare to those on soccer. You just never know, but everyone is prepared to offer an opinion in spite of that. Could be interesting, if those involved only could have been able to refrain from teapot observations and insult. The point is things in the similar weight and age division are close to unpredictable. This is why most were not prepared to bet on the outcome of a fight.

It is a great pity animals forums keen on a long life have to refrain from offering the opportunity to debate. We could learn a lot from those who have a bit of experience or knowledge, but can't as a result of the inability or the unwillingness to debate. A debate, almost by definition, is about things that are undecided. This prospect, apparently, is too much to bear for most. The experience in the Zoologischer Garten, however, says it can be done if those involved are willing to accept a few rules.    

Anyhow, we spend many hours in the zoo and the restaurant wasn't bad either. And all this in the very pleasant October sun for extras. How lucky can you get. Photographs to be posted later.

Good guesstimate for the lion. A massive individual and lioness is slim and muscular. Here are they.
Aru and Aketi

Which subspecies of lion they belong to?