(07-14-2019, 12:15 PM)Spalea Wrote: @BorneanTiger :

It a first time I read something about the existence possibility of a Bornean tiger. Why not as you say ! After all, Borneo, noticeably bigger than Sumatra and Java (I believe that Borneo is the fourth biggest island of the Earth between New Guinea and Madagascar), fulfils the conditions to be inhabited by tigers: climate, big forests, fauna... But we have never read that it existed.

You show a native's testimony, enjoying a Bornean tiger's fang... Yes ok.

I think it's perhaps possible that a tiger came to Borneo. But if we look at the map we nevertheless see that a real inlet of the sea separates Borneo from Java and Sumatra. It's very possible for a tiger to go from Sumatra to Java because these two islands are quite close, follow each other very closely. We can easily imagine a tiger swimming from Sumatra to Java. But to Borneo it's a quite another story.

If we could find some facts, some other bones left (more convincing than a single fang), it would be interesting because it would prove that, in a recent past, Borneo was closer to Sumatra or Java than now, making possible a tiger migration and the possibility of an indigenous population.

Another specy commune to Java, Sumatra and Borneo: the ourangutan.

PS: I smiled when I discovered for the first time your pseudo. It was, IMO, a mythical creature, quite mysterious and now you're evoking it... Yes, good !

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

(04-10-2019, 02:56 PM)phatio Wrote: Was Borneo once a land of tigers?

The scientific consensus is that while tigers did inhabit the Indonesian islands of Java and Bali, and still live in Sumatra, they never lived in Borneo.
Indigenous peoples in Borneo say otherwise. So-called ‘tiger fangs,’ for example, often feature in traditional Dayak ceremonies.
Some researchers wonder if the question of whether tigers lived in Borneo has gotten short shrift from experts who should be paying more attention to local communities.

PALANGKARAYA, Indonesia — One recent morning I paid a visit to Iber Djamal, a leader of the Dayak Ngaju indigenous people. He had invited us to see his mandau, a traditional Dayak weapon.

When I saw the mandau, which is a kind of machete, my attention focused not on the blade but on the fangs adorning it. What surprised me was that they were said to be tiger fangs.

“These are tiger fangs, not leopard fangs,” Iber said. “The fangs that decorate this mandau are from the animals that have been killed by the weapons inherited from my ancestors. Besides tigers, there are crocodiles, bears, leopards and boars.” What kind of tiger was killed with this mandau?

“A tiger in Kalimantan. It was killed by my ancestor. There used to be tigers in Kalimantan.”

*This image is copyright of its original author

Iber Djamal shows off the tiger fangs on his mandau. Photo by Jemmie Delvian

Iber’s explanation certainly differs from the general understanding about tigers in Kalimantan, the Indonesian part of Borneo island. The present scientific consensus is that no one in Kalimantan has ever found a tiger. Researchers think the only tigers in Indonesia are in Bali (now extinct), Java (thought to be extinct) and Sumatra (only a few hundred left).

Iber said that the tiger — called harimau in Indonesian and haramaung in Dayak Ngaju — was one of the animals most commonly hunted by his ancestors. “We believe that if a man can hunt and kill a tiger when his wife is pregnant, the child will grow up to be a king or a leader,” he said. If a mandau is adorned with tiger fangs, it will endow whomever wields it with courage.

“Maybe because they’re worth so much to some people, tigers in Kalimantan have been hunted to extinction,” he said. He added that if anyone in his tribe ever found a tiger, it wouldn’t be hunted, “because these animals need to be protected.”

*This image is copyright of its original author

Fangs from a tiger or a clouded leopard?

After encountering this phenomenon, I contacted Yoan Dinata, chairperson of Forum HarimauKita, an NGO, about the possibility of a long-lost species of Bornean tiger. “There is no record or scholarship of tigers ever living in Kalimantan,” Dinata said. “But there is a possibility that in the past they did live there, because the islands of Java, Sumatra and Borneo were once fused with mainland Southeast Asia.”

According to Dinata, in Kalimantan today there is only the Sunda clouded leopard (Neofelis diardi). “I don’t know if the fangs adorning all of those mandau blades are the fangs of tigers or clouded leopards,” he said. Dinata suggested that there should be more research as to the origin of the fangs. “If they really are tiger fangs, we should study how old they are.”

Scientifically, the nonexistence of tigers in Kalimantan raises many questions among researchers. The merging in ancient times of Borneo with mainland Southeast Asia certainly brought to it a variety of Asiatic wildlife. As a predator, the path of the tiger in the past was certainly influenced by the distribution of its prey. From a habitat perspective the characterstics of Sumatra today are similar with those of Kalimantan.

“Almost all of the animals in Kalimantan are also in Sumatra, including the orangutan and elephant. But surprisingly in Kalimantan today there aren’t any tigers,” Dinata said. “Dayak people’s recognition of the existence of tigers in the past would be an interesting thing to study.”

On the other hand, many of the sources of scientific findings in the past century are by Western researchers — it’s very rare to get information from local communities to be summarized in the scientific record. For example, findings that the Sumatran rhinoceros (Dicerorhinus sumatrensis) might exist in Kalimantan were questioned by some researchers. Only after evidence such as horns and tracks were found did experts begin to seriously explore the existence of this species. As a result, experts finally met the Sumatran rhino in Borneo.

Maybe at a historical moment the tracks of a Bornean tiger will be revealed based on information from local communities. Who knows?
https://news.mongabay.com/2016/11/was-borneo-once-a-land-of-tigers/
by Taufik Wijaya on 7 November 2016 | Translated by Philip Jacobson

----------------------------------

Recently I came across an article about Bornean Tiger written by a local bornean guy. very interesting but of course it's in indonesian, you can use translate if you want to read the whole story.
https://folksofdayak.wordpress.com/2018/04/19/harimau-kalimantan-sebuah-mitos-atau-fakta/
it is said there were/are tigers in Borneo. The indigenous peoples of Borneo, commonly known as Dayak called the big cat "Haramaong, Remaong, Lencau" etc. and they know the larger striped cat is different from smaller clouded leopard which they called "Kule".
according to the writter, he/she has some Bornean tiger's canines which is much larger than their Sumatran's cousin. unfortunately he/she dind't post the comparison picture. The Dayak people also made "Besunung", one of their traditional clothes from real Bornean tiger skins.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

@GrizzlyClaw and @tigerluver i need your help once again to determine the originality of these allegedly Bornean tiger canines.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

let say if these canines and skins were real, some people suggest they probably got those stuff from trading with sumatran, javan or malayan people where tigers existed there. but i highly doubt that, as the indigenous peoples of Borneo are forest dweller peoples. They live completely from their jungle, their home, the only resources they knew for so long. until fairly recently these people hardly knew about money, let alone trading with foreign people.

Here's some sighting reports from my quick search. May 2017
https://www.borneonews.co.id/berita/63442-awas-di-hutan-pangkalan-bun-masih-ada-harimau
witness insisted they saw a tiger not a clouded leopard because the animal is larger and longer, and it's a striped cat not spotted. the animal's skin is as clean and soft as carpet, they added. 

from March 2018
https://www.indopos.co.id/read/2018/03/05/129826/warga-gempar-diduga-harimau-masuk-sekolah

*This image is copyright of its original author

the authority checking animals pugmark

Interestingly, all of the story above coming from the same area, more or less around the yellow circle in the map below

*This image is copyright of its original author

what do you think guys? is this false alarm or have we been missing something here?

another interesting read
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257537985_Late_Quaternary_turnover_of_mammals_in_Borneo_The_zooarchaeological_record
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236898561_The_Bornean_tiger_speculation_on_its_existence

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Puerto-Princesa Subterranean River National Park, a UNESCO World Heritage Site: https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/652/ 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

(07-14-2019, 01:12 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(07-14-2019, 12:15 PM)Spalea Wrote: @BorneanTiger :

It a first time I read something about the existence possibility of a Bornean tiger. Why not as you say ! After all, Borneo, noticeably bigger than Sumatra and Java (I believe that Borneo is the fourth biggest island of the Earth between New Guinea and Madagascar), fulfils the conditions to be inhabited by tigers: climate, big forests, fauna... But we have never read that it existed.

You show a native's testimony, enjoying a Bornean tiger's fang... Yes ok.

I think it's perhaps possible that a tiger came to Borneo. But if we look at the map we nevertheless see that a real inlet of the sea separates Borneo from Java and Sumatra. It's very possible for a tiger to go from Sumatra to Java because these two islands are quite close, follow each other very closely. We can easily imagine a tiger swimming from Sumatra to Java. But to Borneo it's a quite another story.

If we could find some facts, some other bones left (more convincing than a single fang), it would be interesting because it would prove that, in a recent past, Borneo was closer to Sumatra or Java than now, making possible a tiger migration and the possibility of an indigenous population.

Another specy commune to Java, Sumatra and Borneo: the ourangutan.

PS: I smiled when I discovered for the first time your pseudo. It was, IMO, a mythical creature, quite mysterious and now you're evoking it... Yes, good !

Yes, that was a purpose of my pseudo, the Bornean tiger isn't a well-known animal, unlike even its Balinese, Javan and Caspian relatives, so I wanted to spread awareness on it, that there were indeed tigers on the island of Borneo, and you're not alone in wondering why the island doesn't have any tigers (https://www.quora.com/Why-are-there-no-tigers-in-Borneo), even scientists have wandered why:

Taufik Wijaya, Mongabay: https://news.mongabay.com/2016/11/was-borneo-once-a-land-of-tigers/

"Scientifically, the nonexistence of tigers in Kalimantan raises many questions among researchers. The merging in ancient times of Borneo with mainland Southeast Asia certainly brought to it a variety of Asiatic wildlife.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Historical range of tiger is shown in pale yellow and current range (2006) in green. Map source: Fate of Wild Tigers: Sanderson, E., Forrest, J., Loucks, C., Ginsberg, J., Dinerstein, E., Seidensticker, J., Leimgruber, P., Songer, M., Heydlauff, A., O’Brien, T., Bryja, G., Klenzendorf, S., Wikramanayake, E. (2006). The Technical Assessment: Setting Priorities for the Conservation and Recovery of Wild Tigers: 2005–2015. License: Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 Generic

As a predator, the path of the tiger in the past was certainly influenced by the distribution of its prey. From a habitat perspective the characterstics of Sumatra today are similar with those of Kalimantan.

“Almost all of the animals in Kalimantan are also in Sumatra, including the orangutan and elephant. But surprisingly in Kalimantan today there aren’t any tigers,” Dinata said. “Dayak people’s recognition of the existence of tigers in the past would be an interesting thing to study.”

On the other hand, many of the sources of scientific findings in the past century are by Western researchers — it’s very rare to get information from local communities to be summarized in the scientific record."


The Earl of Cranbrook: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257537985_Late_Quaternary_turnover_of_mammals_in_Borneo_The_zooarchaeological_record

"The Late Pleistocene mammals of Borneo included ten species also present among a Javan Middle Pleistocene savanna-adapted assemblage. Of these, four are categorised as ‘megafuana’: a giant pangolin, Javan rhinoceros, Malay tapir and tiger; the Sumatran rhinoceros can be added. In addition, there are less secure Pleistocene records of Asian elephant from Sarawak and Brunei. Holocene canid remains from Madai could either be the dhole or an early domestic dog. Palynological data combined with the mammal fauna confirm that around 45,000 years ago the vicinity of Niah was vegetated by closed forest. The continuous presence of a suite of arboreal specialists, including large primates, indicates that forest cover persisted through the terminal Pleistocene. Among local extinctions, the giant pangolin apparently disappeared early in this period, but tiger, Javan rhinoceros and tapir probably survived into the last millennium. Human predation of juveniles may account for the loss of the large ungulates, but the disappearance of tiger needs another explanation."


One reason that I can think of for the Bornean tiger not being present today is that it suffered from the same problem as its Balinese and Javan relatives: persecution by humans, and for now, though Borneo is a relatively large island with a rainforest, I discovered this horrifying article from 2013 about the threat posed by logging, agribusiness and industrialisation to the forests of Borneo and Sumatra (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/26/sumatra-borneo-deforestation-tigers-palm-oil). To quote Wijaya of Mongabay: https://news.mongabay.com/2016/11/was-borneo-once-a-land-of-tigers/

"One recent morning I paid a visit to Iber Djamal, a leader of the Dayak Ngaju indigenous people. He had invited us to see his mandau, a traditional Dayak weapon. When I saw the mandau, which is a kind of machete, my attention focused not on the blade but on the fangs adorning it. What surprised me was that they were said to be tiger fangs.

“These are tiger fangs, not leopard fangs,” Iber said. “The fangs that decorate this mandau are from the animals that have been killed by the weapons inherited from my ancestors. Besides tigers, there are crocodiles, bears, leopards and boars.”

What kind of tiger was killed with this mandau?

“A tiger in Kalimantan. It was killed by my ancestor. There used to be tigers in Kalimantan.”

*This image is copyright of its original author

Iber Djamal shows off the tiger fangs on his mandau. Photo by Jemmie Delvian

Iber’s explanation certainly differs from the general understanding about tigers in Kalimantan, the Indonesian part of Borneo island.

Iber said that the tiger — called harimau in Indonesian and haramaung in Dayak Ngaju — was one of the animals most commonly hunted by his ancestors.
“We believe that if a man can hunt and kill a tiger when his wife is pregnant, the child will grow up to be a king or a leader,” he said. If a mandau is adorned with tiger fangs, it will endow whomever wields it with courage.

“Maybe because they’re worth so much to some people, tigers in Kalimantan have been hunted to extinction,” he said. He added that if anyone in his tribe ever found a tiger, it wouldn’t be hunted, “because these animals need to be protected.”"


If the Bornean tiger went extinct in prehistoric times like its Longdan, Ngandong, Wanhsien and Trinil relatives, then it's peculiar that Bornean natives of recent or present times would hold it in the same type of esteem as say Indians would for the Bengal tiger, or Russians would for the Amur tiger.

Chinese reliefs of the tiger by Thomas Quine at Sarawak, Malaysian Borneo, on Wikimedia Commons: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tiger_at_Chinese_Buddhist_temple_(28412821871).jpg, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chinese_warrior_astride_a_tiger_(26966322573).jpg, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tiger_relief_(28157560275).jpg

Chinese Buddhist Temple in Kuching: https://www.flickr.com/photos/quinet/28412821871/, https://www.flickr.com/photos/quinet/28157560275/

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Chinese warrior astride a tiger, Semenggoh Nature Reserve: https://www.flickr.com/photos/quinet/26966322573/

*This image is copyright of its original author

@phatio posted some more stuff about the tiger, both fangs and skins (https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-edge-of-extinction-a-the-tiger-panthera-tigris?page=146), and welcome to the thread, Phatio.

(04-10-2019, 02:56 PM)phatio Wrote: Was Borneo once a land of tigers?

The scientific consensus is that while tigers did inhabit the Indonesian islands of Java and Bali, and still live in Sumatra, they never lived in Borneo.
Indigenous peoples in Borneo say otherwise. So-called ‘tiger fangs,’ for example, often feature in traditional Dayak ceremonies.
Some researchers wonder if the question of whether tigers lived in Borneo has gotten short shrift from experts who should be paying more attention to local communities.

PALANGKARAYA, Indonesia — One recent morning I paid a visit to Iber Djamal, a leader of the Dayak Ngaju indigenous people. He had invited us to see his mandau, a traditional Dayak weapon.

When I saw the mandau, which is a kind of machete, my attention focused not on the blade but on the fangs adorning it. What surprised me was that they were said to be tiger fangs.

“These are tiger fangs, not leopard fangs,” Iber said. “The fangs that decorate this mandau are from the animals that have been killed by the weapons inherited from my ancestors. Besides tigers, there are crocodiles, bears, leopards and boars.” What kind of tiger was killed with this mandau?

“A tiger in Kalimantan. It was killed by my ancestor. There used to be tigers in Kalimantan.”

*This image is copyright of its original author

Iber Djamal shows off the tiger fangs on his mandau. Photo by Jemmie Delvian

Iber’s explanation certainly differs from the general understanding about tigers in Kalimantan, the Indonesian part of Borneo island. The present scientific consensus is that no one in Kalimantan has ever found a tiger. Researchers think the only tigers in Indonesia are in Bali (now extinct), Java (thought to be extinct) and Sumatra (only a few hundred left).

Iber said that the tiger — called harimau in Indonesian and haramaung in Dayak Ngaju — was one of the animals most commonly hunted by his ancestors. “We believe that if a man can hunt and kill a tiger when his wife is pregnant, the child will grow up to be a king or a leader,” he said. If a mandau is adorned with tiger fangs, it will endow whomever wields it with courage.

“Maybe because they’re worth so much to some people, tigers in Kalimantan have been hunted to extinction,” he said. He added that if anyone in his tribe ever found a tiger, it wouldn’t be hunted, “because these animals need to be protected.”

*This image is copyright of its original author

Fangs from a tiger or a clouded leopard?

After encountering this phenomenon, I contacted Yoan Dinata, chairperson of Forum HarimauKita, an NGO, about the possibility of a long-lost species of Bornean tiger. “There is no record or scholarship of tigers ever living in Kalimantan,” Dinata said. “But there is a possibility that in the past they did live there, because the islands of Java, Sumatra and Borneo were once fused with mainland Southeast Asia.”

According to Dinata, in Kalimantan today there is only the Sunda clouded leopard (Neofelis diardi). “I don’t know if the fangs adorning all of those mandau blades are the fangs of tigers or clouded leopards,” he said. Dinata suggested that there should be more research as to the origin of the fangs. “If they really are tiger fangs, we should study how old they are.”

Scientifically, the nonexistence of tigers in Kalimantan raises many questions among researchers. The merging in ancient times of Borneo with mainland Southeast Asia certainly brought to it a variety of Asiatic wildlife. As a predator, the path of the tiger in the past was certainly influenced by the distribution of its prey. From a habitat perspective the characterstics of Sumatra today are similar with those of Kalimantan.

“Almost all of the animals in Kalimantan are also in Sumatra, including the orangutan and elephant. But surprisingly in Kalimantan today there aren’t any tigers,” Dinata said. “Dayak people’s recognition of the existence of tigers in the past would be an interesting thing to study.”

On the other hand, many of the sources of scientific findings in the past century are by Western researchers — it’s very rare to get information from local communities to be summarized in the scientific record. For example, findings that the Sumatran rhinoceros (Dicerorhinus sumatrensis) might exist in Kalimantan were questioned by some researchers. Only after evidence such as horns and tracks were found did experts begin to seriously explore the existence of this species. As a result, experts finally met the Sumatran rhino in Borneo.

Maybe at a historical moment the tracks of a Bornean tiger will be revealed based on information from local communities. Who knows?
https://news.mongabay.com/2016/11/was-borneo-once-a-land-of-tigers/
by Taufik Wijaya on 7 November 2016 | Translated by Philip Jacobson

----------------------------------

Recently I came across an article about Bornean Tiger written by a local bornean guy. very interesting but of course it's in indonesian, you can use translate if you want to read the whole story.
https://folksofdayak.wordpress.com/2018/04/19/harimau-kalimantan-sebuah-mitos-atau-fakta/
it is said there were/are tigers in Borneo. The indigenous peoples of Borneo, commonly known as Dayak called the big cat "Haramaong, Remaong, Lencau" etc. and they know the larger striped cat is different from smaller clouded leopard which they called "Kule".
according to the writter, he/she has some Bornean tiger's canines which is much larger than their Sumatran's cousin. unfortunately he/she dind't post the comparison picture. The Dayak people also made "Besunung", one of their traditional clothes from real Bornean tiger skins.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

@GrizzlyClaw and @tigerluver i need your help once again to determine the originality of these allegedly Bornean tiger canines.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

let say if these canines and skins were real, some people suggest they probably got those stuff from trading with sumatran, javan or malayan people where tigers existed there. but i highly doubt that, as the indigenous peoples of Borneo are forest dweller peoples. They live completely from their jungle, their home, the only resources they knew for so long. until fairly recently these people hardly knew about money, let alone trading with foreign people.

Here's some sighting reports from my quick search. May 2017
https://www.borneonews.co.id/berita/63442-awas-di-hutan-pangkalan-bun-masih-ada-harimau
witness insisted they saw a tiger not a clouded leopard because the animal is larger and longer, and it's a striped cat not spotted. the animal's skin is as clean and soft as carpet, they added. 

from March 2018
https://www.indopos.co.id/read/2018/03/05/129826/warga-gempar-diduga-harimau-masuk-sekolah

*This image is copyright of its original author

the authority checking animals pugmark

Interestingly, all of the story above coming from the same area, more or less around the yellow circle in the map below

*This image is copyright of its original author

what do you think guys? is this false alarm or have we been missing something here?

another interesting read
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257537985_Late_Quaternary_turnover_of_mammals_in_Borneo_The_zooarchaeological_record
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236898561_The_Bornean_tiger_speculation_on_its_existence

(09-01-2019, 03:07 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(07-14-2019, 01:12 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(07-14-2019, 12:15 PM)Spalea Wrote: @BorneanTiger :

It a first time I read something about the existence possibility of a Bornean tiger. Why not as you say ! After all, Borneo, noticeably bigger than Sumatra and Java (I believe that Borneo is the fourth biggest island of the Earth between New Guinea and Madagascar), fulfils the conditions to be inhabited by tigers: climate, big forests, fauna... But we have never read that it existed.

You show a native's testimony, enjoying a Bornean tiger's fang... Yes ok.

I think it's perhaps possible that a tiger came to Borneo. But if we look at the map we nevertheless see that a real inlet of the sea separates Borneo from Java and Sumatra. It's very possible for a tiger to go from Sumatra to Java because these two islands are quite close, follow each other very closely. We can easily imagine a tiger swimming from Sumatra to Java. But to Borneo it's a quite another story.

If we could find some facts, some other bones left (more convincing than a single fang), it would be interesting because it would prove that, in a recent past, Borneo was closer to Sumatra or Java than now, making possible a tiger migration and the possibility of an indigenous population.

Another specy commune to Java, Sumatra and Borneo: the ourangutan.

PS: I smiled when I discovered for the first time your pseudo. It was, IMO, a mythical creature, quite mysterious and now you're evoking it... Yes, good !

Yes, that was a purpose of my pseudo, the Bornean tiger isn't a well-known animal, unlike even its Balinese, Javan and Caspian relatives, so I wanted to spread awareness on it, that there were indeed tigers on the island of Borneo, and you're not alone in wondering why the island doesn't have any tigers (https://www.quora.com/Why-are-there-no-tigers-in-Borneo), even scientists have wandered why:

Taufik Wijaya, Mongabay: https://news.mongabay.com/2016/11/was-borneo-once-a-land-of-tigers/

"Scientifically, the nonexistence of tigers in Kalimantan raises many questions among researchers. The merging in ancient times of Borneo with mainland Southeast Asia certainly brought to it a variety of Asiatic wildlife.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Historical range of tiger is shown in pale yellow and current range (2006) in green. Map source: Fate of Wild Tigers: Sanderson, E., Forrest, J., Loucks, C., Ginsberg, J., Dinerstein, E., Seidensticker, J., Leimgruber, P., Songer, M., Heydlauff, A., O’Brien, T., Bryja, G., Klenzendorf, S., Wikramanayake, E. (2006). The Technical Assessment: Setting Priorities for the Conservation and Recovery of Wild Tigers: 2005–2015. License: Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 Generic

As a predator, the path of the tiger in the past was certainly influenced by the distribution of its prey. From a habitat perspective the characterstics of Sumatra today are similar with those of Kalimantan.

“Almost all of the animals in Kalimantan are also in Sumatra, including the orangutan and elephant. But surprisingly in Kalimantan today there aren’t any tigers,” Dinata said. “Dayak people’s recognition of the existence of tigers in the past would be an interesting thing to study.”

On the other hand, many of the sources of scientific findings in the past century are by Western researchers — it’s very rare to get information from local communities to be summarized in the scientific record."


The Earl of Cranbrook: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257537985_Late_Quaternary_turnover_of_mammals_in_Borneo_The_zooarchaeological_record

"The Late Pleistocene mammals of Borneo included ten species also present among a Javan Middle Pleistocene savanna-adapted assemblage. Of these, four are categorised as ‘megafuana’: a giant pangolin, Javan rhinoceros, Malay tapir and tiger; the Sumatran rhinoceros can be added. In addition, there are less secure Pleistocene records of Asian elephant from Sarawak and Brunei. Holocene canid remains from Madai could either be the dhole or an early domestic dog. Palynological data combined with the mammal fauna confirm that around 45,000 years ago the vicinity of Niah was vegetated by closed forest. The continuous presence of a suite of arboreal specialists, including large primates, indicates that forest cover persisted through the terminal Pleistocene. Among local extinctions, the giant pangolin apparently disappeared early in this period, but tiger, Javan rhinoceros and tapir probably survived into the last millennium. Human predation of juveniles may account for the loss of the large ungulates, but the disappearance of tiger needs another explanation."


One reason that I can think of for the Bornean tiger not being present today is that it suffered from the same problem as its Balinese and Javan relatives: persecution by humans, and for now, though Borneo is a relatively large island with a rainforest, I discovered this horrifying article from 2013 about the threat posed by logging, agribusiness and industrialisation to the forests of Borneo and Sumatra (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/26/sumatra-borneo-deforestation-tigers-palm-oil). To quote Wijaya of Mongabay: https://news.mongabay.com/2016/11/was-borneo-once-a-land-of-tigers/

"One recent morning I paid a visit to Iber Djamal, a leader of the Dayak Ngaju indigenous people. He had invited us to see his mandau, a traditional Dayak weapon. When I saw the mandau, which is a kind of machete, my attention focused not on the blade but on the fangs adorning it. What surprised me was that they were said to be tiger fangs.

“These are tiger fangs, not leopard fangs,” Iber said. “The fangs that decorate this mandau are from the animals that have been killed by the weapons inherited from my ancestors. Besides tigers, there are crocodiles, bears, leopards and boars.”

What kind of tiger was killed with this mandau?

“A tiger in Kalimantan. It was killed by my ancestor. There used to be tigers in Kalimantan.”

*This image is copyright of its original author

Iber Djamal shows off the tiger fangs on his mandau. Photo by Jemmie Delvian

Iber’s explanation certainly differs from the general understanding about tigers in Kalimantan, the Indonesian part of Borneo island.

Iber said that the tiger — called harimau in Indonesian and haramaung in Dayak Ngaju — was one of the animals most commonly hunted by his ancestors.
“We believe that if a man can hunt and kill a tiger when his wife is pregnant, the child will grow up to be a king or a leader,” he said. If a mandau is adorned with tiger fangs, it will endow whomever wields it with courage.

“Maybe because they’re worth so much to some people, tigers in Kalimantan have been hunted to extinction,” he said. He added that if anyone in his tribe ever found a tiger, it wouldn’t be hunted, “because these animals need to be protected.”"


If the Bornean tiger went extinct in prehistoric times like its Longdan, Ngandong, Wanhsien and Trinil relatives, then it's peculiar that Bornean natives of recent or present times would hold it in the same type of esteem as say Indians would for the Bengal tiger, or Russians would for the Amur tiger.

Chinese reliefs of the tiger by Thomas Quine at Sarawak, Malaysian Borneo, on Wikimedia Commons: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tiger_at_Chinese_Buddhist_temple_(28412821871).jpg, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chinese_warrior_astride_a_tiger_(26966322573).jpg, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tiger_relief_(28157560275).jpg

Chinese Buddhist Temple in Kuching: https://www.flickr.com/photos/quinet/28412821871/, https://www.flickr.com/photos/quinet/28157560275/

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Chinese warrior astride a tiger, Semenggoh Nature Reserve: https://www.flickr.com/photos/quinet/26966322573/

*This image is copyright of its original author

@phatio posted some more stuff about the tiger, both fangs and skins (https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-edge-of-extinction-a-the-tiger-panthera-tigris?page=146), and welcome to the thread, Phatio.

(04-10-2019, 02:56 PM)phatio Wrote: Was Borneo once a land of tigers?

The scientific consensus is that while tigers did inhabit the Indonesian islands of Java and Bali, and still live in Sumatra, they never lived in Borneo.
Indigenous peoples in Borneo say otherwise. So-called ‘tiger fangs,’ for example, often feature in traditional Dayak ceremonies.
Some researchers wonder if the question of whether tigers lived in Borneo has gotten short shrift from experts who should be paying more attention to local communities.

PALANGKARAYA, Indonesia — One recent morning I paid a visit to Iber Djamal, a leader of the Dayak Ngaju indigenous people. He had invited us to see his mandau, a traditional Dayak weapon.

When I saw the mandau, which is a kind of machete, my attention focused not on the blade but on the fangs adorning it. What surprised me was that they were said to be tiger fangs.

“These are tiger fangs, not leopard fangs,” Iber said. “The fangs that decorate this mandau are from the animals that have been killed by the weapons inherited from my ancestors. Besides tigers, there are crocodiles, bears, leopards and boars.” What kind of tiger was killed with this mandau?

“A tiger in Kalimantan. It was killed by my ancestor. There used to be tigers in Kalimantan.”

*This image is copyright of its original author

Iber Djamal shows off the tiger fangs on his mandau. Photo by Jemmie Delvian

Iber’s explanation certainly differs from the general understanding about tigers in Kalimantan, the Indonesian part of Borneo island. The present scientific consensus is that no one in Kalimantan has ever found a tiger. Researchers think the only tigers in Indonesia are in Bali (now extinct), Java (thought to be extinct) and Sumatra (only a few hundred left).

Iber said that the tiger — called harimau in Indonesian and haramaung in Dayak Ngaju — was one of the animals most commonly hunted by his ancestors. “We believe that if a man can hunt and kill a tiger when his wife is pregnant, the child will grow up to be a king or a leader,” he said. If a mandau is adorned with tiger fangs, it will endow whomever wields it with courage.

“Maybe because they’re worth so much to some people, tigers in Kalimantan have been hunted to extinction,” he said. He added that if anyone in his tribe ever found a tiger, it wouldn’t be hunted, “because these animals need to be protected.”

*This image is copyright of its original author

Fangs from a tiger or a clouded leopard?

After encountering this phenomenon, I contacted Yoan Dinata, chairperson of Forum HarimauKita, an NGO, about the possibility of a long-lost species of Bornean tiger. “There is no record or scholarship of tigers ever living in Kalimantan,” Dinata said. “But there is a possibility that in the past they did live there, because the islands of Java, Sumatra and Borneo were once fused with mainland Southeast Asia.”

According to Dinata, in Kalimantan today there is only the Sunda clouded leopard (Neofelis diardi). “I don’t know if the fangs adorning all of those mandau blades are the fangs of tigers or clouded leopards,” he said. Dinata suggested that there should be more research as to the origin of the fangs. “If they really are tiger fangs, we should study how old they are.”

Scientifically, the nonexistence of tigers in Kalimantan raises many questions among researchers. The merging in ancient times of Borneo with mainland Southeast Asia certainly brought to it a variety of Asiatic wildlife. As a predator, the path of the tiger in the past was certainly influenced by the distribution of its prey. From a habitat perspective the characterstics of Sumatra today are similar with those of Kalimantan.

“Almost all of the animals in Kalimantan are also in Sumatra, including the orangutan and elephant. But surprisingly in Kalimantan today there aren’t any tigers,” Dinata said. “Dayak people’s recognition of the existence of tigers in the past would be an interesting thing to study.”

On the other hand, many of the sources of scientific findings in the past century are by Western researchers — it’s very rare to get information from local communities to be summarized in the scientific record. For example, findings that the Sumatran rhinoceros (Dicerorhinus sumatrensis) might exist in Kalimantan were questioned by some researchers. Only after evidence such as horns and tracks were found did experts begin to seriously explore the existence of this species. As a result, experts finally met the Sumatran rhino in Borneo.

Maybe at a historical moment the tracks of a Bornean tiger will be revealed based on information from local communities. Who knows?
https://news.mongabay.com/2016/11/was-borneo-once-a-land-of-tigers/
by Taufik Wijaya on 7 November 2016 | Translated by Philip Jacobson

----------------------------------

Recently I came across an article about Bornean Tiger written by a local bornean guy. very interesting but of course it's in indonesian, you can use translate if you want to read the whole story.
https://folksofdayak.wordpress.com/2018/04/19/harimau-kalimantan-sebuah-mitos-atau-fakta/
it is said there were/are tigers in Borneo. The indigenous peoples of Borneo, commonly known as Dayak called the big cat "Haramaong, Remaong, Lencau" etc. and they know the larger striped cat is different from smaller clouded leopard which they called "Kule".
according to the writter, he/she has some Bornean tiger's canines which is much larger than their Sumatran's cousin. unfortunately he/she dind't post the comparison picture. The Dayak people also made "Besunung", one of their traditional clothes from real Bornean tiger skins.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

@GrizzlyClaw and @tigerluver i need your help once again to determine the originality of these allegedly Bornean tiger canines.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

let say if these canines and skins were real, some people suggest they probably got those stuff from trading with sumatran, javan or malayan people where tigers existed there. but i highly doubt that, as the indigenous peoples of Borneo are forest dweller peoples. They live completely from their jungle, their home, the only resources they knew for so long. until fairly recently these people hardly knew about money, let alone trading with foreign people.

Here's some sighting reports from my quick search. May 2017
https://www.borneonews.co.id/berita/63442-awas-di-hutan-pangkalan-bun-masih-ada-harimau
witness insisted they saw a tiger not a clouded leopard because the animal is larger and longer, and it's a striped cat not spotted. the animal's skin is as clean and soft as carpet, they added. 

from March 2018
https://www.indopos.co.id/read/2018/03/05/129826/warga-gempar-diduga-harimau-masuk-sekolah

*This image is copyright of its original author

the authority checking animals pugmark

Interestingly, all of the story above coming from the same area, more or less around the yellow circle in the map below

*This image is copyright of its original author

what do you think guys? is this false alarm or have we been missing something here?

another interesting read
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257537985_Late_Quaternary_turnover_of_mammals_in_Borneo_The_zooarchaeological_record
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236898561_The_Bornean_tiger_speculation_on_its_existence

@tigerluver About your new thread, we already have this one.

(09-03-2019, 06:15 PM)phatio Wrote: Ok guys i'm in. i'll be your local contributor since most of the sighting reports are written in indonesian only.

coincidentally this news just posted yesterday :
https://banjarmasin.tribunnews.com/2019/09/02/di-facebook-ramai-diperbincangkan-keberadaan-harimau-di-tanbu-begini-reaksi-bksda-kalsel
https://www.kanalkalimantan.com/heboh-harimau-di-tanbu-bksda-belum-ambil-langkah/

it's about tiger sighting in Tanah Bumbu, South Borneo recently.
people have been talking about this for a while on facebook now, while the authority keep in silence since there are no scientific record of bornean tiger before.
maybe its time for them (or science community) to seriously investigating this topic, since it's not the first time this kind of report spreading in borneo. personally i hope Forest Galante and his team will make borneo tiger as their to do list in the future 

btw for mods, i think it would be great if we can merge this thread with this : https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-tigers-from-borneo-palawan-japan? by @BorneanTiger as he wrote lots of informative post there. Thanks in advance 
and this is my post from here : https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-edge-of-extinction-a-the-tiger-panthera-tigris?page=146

-----------------

Was Borneo once a land of tigers?

The scientific consensus is that while tigers did inhabit the Indonesian islands of Java and Bali, and still live in Sumatra, they never lived in Borneo.
Indigenous peoples in Borneo say otherwise. So-called ‘tiger fangs,’ for example, often feature in traditional Dayak ceremonies.
Some researchers wonder if the question of whether tigers lived in Borneo has gotten short shrift from experts who should be paying more attention to local communities.

PALANGKARAYA, Indonesia — One recent morning I paid a visit to Iber Djamal, a leader of the Dayak Ngaju indigenous people. He had invited us to see his mandau, a traditional Dayak weapon.

When I saw the mandau, which is a kind of machete, my attention focused not on the blade but on the fangs adorning it. What surprised me was that they were said to be tiger fangs.

“These are tiger fangs, not leopard fangs,” Iber said. “The fangs that decorate this mandau are from the animals that have been killed by the weapons inherited from my ancestors. Besides tigers, there are crocodiles, bears, leopards and boars.” What kind of tiger was killed with this mandau?

“A tiger in Kalimantan. It was killed by my ancestor. There used to be tigers in Kalimantan.”

*This image is copyright of its original author

Iber Djamal shows off the tiger fangs on his mandau. Photo by Jemmie Delvian

Iber’s explanation certainly differs from the general understanding about tigers in Kalimantan, the Indonesian part of Borneo island. The present scientific consensus is that no one in Kalimantan has ever found a tiger. Researchers think the only tigers in Indonesia are in Bali (now extinct), Java (thought to be extinct) and Sumatra (only a few hundred left).

Iber said that the tiger — called harimau in Indonesian and haramaung in Dayak Ngaju — was one of the animals most commonly hunted by his ancestors. “We believe that if a man can hunt and kill a tiger when his wife is pregnant, the child will grow up to be a king or a leader,” he said. If a mandau is adorned with tiger fangs, it will endow whomever wields it with courage.

“Maybe because they’re worth so much to some people, tigers in Kalimantan have been hunted to extinction,” he said. He added that if anyone in his tribe ever found a tiger, it wouldn’t be hunted, “because these animals need to be protected.”

*This image is copyright of its original author

Fangs from a tiger or a clouded leopard?

After encountering this phenomenon, I contacted Yoan Dinata, chairperson of Forum HarimauKita, an NGO, about the possibility of a long-lost species of Bornean tiger. “There is no record or scholarship of tigers ever living in Kalimantan,” Dinata said. “But there is a possibility that in the past they did live there, because the islands of Java, Sumatra and Borneo were once fused with mainland Southeast Asia.”

According to Dinata, in Kalimantan today there is only the Sunda clouded leopard (Neofelis diardi). “I don’t know if the fangs adorning all of those mandau blades are the fangs of tigers or clouded leopards,” he said. Dinata suggested that there should be more research as to the origin of the fangs. “If they really are tiger fangs, we should study how old they are.”

Scientifically, the nonexistence of tigers in Kalimantan raises many questions among researchers. The merging in ancient times of Borneo with mainland Southeast Asia certainly brought to it a variety of Asiatic wildlife. As a predator, the path of the tiger in the past was certainly influenced by the distribution of its prey. From a habitat perspective the characterstics of Sumatra today are similar with those of Kalimantan.

“Almost all of the animals in Kalimantan are also in Sumatra, including the orangutan and elephant. But surprisingly in Kalimantan today there aren’t any tigers,” Dinata said. “Dayak people’s recognition of the existence of tigers in the past would be an interesting thing to study.”

On the other hand, many of the sources of scientific findings in the past century are by Western researchers — it’s very rare to get information from local communities to be summarized in the scientific record. For example, findings that the Sumatran rhinoceros (Dicerorhinus sumatrensis) might exist in Kalimantan were questioned by some researchers. Only after evidence such as horns and tracks were found did experts begin to seriously explore the existence of this species. As a result, experts finally met the Sumatran rhino in Borneo.

Maybe at a historical moment the tracks of a Bornean tiger will be revealed based on information from local communities. Who knows?
https://news.mongabay.com/2016/11/was-borneo-once-a-land-of-tigers/
by Taufik Wijaya on 7 November 2016 | Translated by Philip Jacobson

----------------------------------

Recently I came across an article about Bornean Tiger written by a local bornean guy. very interesting but of course it's in indonesian, you can use translate if you want to read the whole story.
https://folksofdayak.wordpress.com/2018/04/19/harimau-kalimantan-sebuah-mitos-atau-fakta/
it is said there were/are tigers in Borneo. The indigenous peoples of Borneo, commonly known as Dayak called the big cat "Haramaong, Remaong, Lencau" etc. and they know the larger striped cat is different from smaller clouded leopard which they called "Kule".
according to the writter, he/she has some Bornean tiger's canines which is much larger than their Sumatran's cousin. unfortunately he/she dind't post the comparison picture. The Dayak people also made "Besunung", one of their traditional clothes from real Bornean tiger skins.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

@GrizzlyClaw and @tigerluver i need your help once again to determine the originality of these allegedly Bornean tiger canines.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

let say if these canines and skins were real, some people suggest they probably got those stuff from trading with sumatran, javan or malayan people where tigers existed there. but i highly doubt that, as the indigenous peoples of Borneo are forest dweller peoples. They live completely from their jungle, their home, the only resources they knew for so long. until fairly recently these people hardly knew about money, let alone trading with foreign people.

Here's some sighting reports from my quick search. May 2017
https://www.borneonews.co.id/berita/63442-awas-di-hutan-pangkalan-bun-masih-ada-harimau
witness insisted they saw a tiger not a clouded leopard because the animal is larger and longer, and it's a striped cat not spotted. the animal's skin is as clean and soft as carpet, they added. 

from March 2018
https://www.indopos.co.id/read/2018/03/05/129826/warga-gempar-diduga-harimau-masuk-sekolah

*This image is copyright of its original author

the authority checking animals pugmark

Interestingly, all of the story above coming from the same area, more or less around the yellow circle in the map below

*This image is copyright of its original author

what do you think guys? is this false alarm or have we been missing something here?

another interesting read
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257537985_Late_Quaternary_turnover_of_mammals_in_Borneo_The_zooarchaeological_record
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236898561_The_Bornean_tiger_speculation_on_its_existence

(09-03-2019, 09:27 PM)tigerluver Wrote: So based on the format we're going for the article section, we can't merge the threads. However, how does this proposition sound: Any questions or comments specifically regarding the article referenced in this thread are posted here and the rest of the discussion regarding the topic in the thread by @BorneanTiger.

• The scientific name of the Borneo Tiger is Panthera Tigris Oxygnatha ?
• How many fossils of Panthera tigris oxygnatha and borneo tiger have been found?
  

(02-03-2022, 04:26 PM)tostwear Wrote:

(09-03-2019, 09:27 PM)tigerluver Wrote: So based on the format we're going for the article section, we can't merge the threads. However, how does this proposition sound: Any questions or comments specifically regarding the article referenced in this thread are posted here and the rest of the discussion regarding the topic in the thread by @BorneanTiger.

I have a few questions for @tigerluver 

• The scientific name of the Borneo Tiger is Panthera Tigris Oxygnatha ?
• How many fossils of Panthera tigris oxygnatha and borneo tiger have been found?
  

(02-04-2022, 03:14 AM)tigerluver Wrote:

(02-03-2022, 04:26 PM)tostwear Wrote:

(09-03-2019, 09:27 PM)tigerluver Wrote: So based on the format we're going for the article section, we can't merge the threads. However, how does this proposition sound: Any questions or comments specifically regarding the article referenced in this thread are posted here and the rest of the discussion regarding the topic in the thread by @BorneanTiger.

I have a few questions for @tigerluver 

• The scientific name of the Borneo Tiger is Panthera Tigris Oxygnatha ?
• How many fossils of Panthera tigris oxygnatha and borneo tiger have been found?
  

Hi @tostwear,

1. So under the current school of thought, names like P. t. soloensis and the like have been retired and it is all just Panthera tigris, akin to how P. spelaea is dealt with. What has been referred to P. t. oxygnatha is a small tiger from the Early to Middle Pleistocene. The giant Bornean tiger is not given a subspecific classification (just like how scientific article just called the Ngandong tiger Panthera tigris). The Bornean tiger is Late Pleistocene in age.


2. There are quite a few fossils that would be from the P. t. oxygnatha era found from Sangiran, Kedung Brubus, and Ci Saat. For Borneo, there are 2 cases (Niah cave ~10 kya, Kahayan river ~20 kya) confirmed with figures and 2 more potential cases (fragmentary canine of the Neolithic and navicular from 10000 kya-3000 kya). Note the animals are all from different eras and thus distinct chronological populations.