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+----- Thread: The Tumbela Coalition (/topic-the-tumbela-coalition)
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RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Mapokser - 10-03-2023
A few months ago this same PCM chased Tumbela and NK at the same time.
A lion's aggressiveness and confidence changes day by day. At that time the smaller PCM was pissed and gave chase to 2 males, now he was chilling and securing the carcass without a fight was enough for him.
But it doesn't mean Tumbela isn't taking risks, one bad day with the 2 PCM and he may die.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Tr1x24 - 10-03-2023
Sometimes lions prioritize carcass/food/eating over fighting and territorial duties, and that has nothing to do with confidence.
At that moment for PCM eating was top priority.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Mapokser - 10-04-2023
Of course it has something to do with confidence, the same scenario happened before with injured Nhenha. The Bboy didn't run and the male didn't attack until his brother showed up, then they beat him up together. Why? Because he wasn't confident enough to charge alone, but once his brother arrived his confidence grew.
Current Tumbela is in top condition and is barely limping ( if at all ), he's probably more confident now than he was in the last few months, he didn't run with the PCM's presence and PCM thought it wasn't worth pushing any harder because he wasn't as confident as when, let's say, he chased Tumbela and NK.
PCM wasn't thin, desperate for food nor anything, he didn't chase Tumbela alone because he wasn't confident enough to do it, period.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Duco Ndona - 10-04-2023
Or they just didn't feel like running on a full stomach. Woke on the wrong side of the bush that day or the opposite, didn't want to be lured away from a lioness they believed may be coming in season soon etc.
Its just one incident between beings that have good or bad days. That is all there is to it. Now if it starts happening enough to become a pattern..
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Tr1x24 - 10-04-2023
(10-04-2023, 12:50 AM)Mapokser Wrote: he didn't chase Tumbela alone because he wasn't confident enough to do it, period.
Disagree.
And he was confident to chase both NK and Tumbela alone when he found them with Ximhungwes? Well that doesnt make sense at all.
Lions sometimes just dont want to fight, especially if there is food around, or if they dont feel threatned by that other lion.
Tumbela is in submissive mode, he is not challeging PCMs by any means, and PCMs can feel that, thats prob the reason why Tumbela is still alive by this point.
(10-04-2023, 12:50 AM)Mapokser Wrote: The Bboy didn't run and the male didn't attack until his brother showed up, then they beat him up together. Why? Because he wasn't confident enough to charge alone, but once his brother arrived his confidence grew.
When that happened?
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Mapokser - 10-04-2023
@Tr1x24 As I said before, it doesn't matter he chased Tumbela and NK before, confidence changes from day to day, this is an absolute fact when talking about lions, reason why, in a coalition, the dominance changes.
PCM was feeling amazing when he chased both, but was way more cautious when he faced a desperate Nhenha over an impala, and more cautious now too against a Tumbela in prime condition. Of course as the dominant male he won't give up the carcass to a nomad, but he won't, necessarily, risk trying anything more, which is completely normal.
Yes, lions sometimes don't want to fight, why? Because they're not always as confident as ever.
As for your question, after Nhenha got injured in the fight, a week or so after the incident Nhenha stole an impala kill from a leopard. Smaller PCM showed up but Nhenha refused to give it up as he was desperate, smaller PCM refused to engage and only attacked when his brother arrived. This was witnessed by a ranger and reported, in fact the ranger filmed it but refused to share it.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Duco Ndona - 10-04-2023
You make it sound as if confidence is the sole factor in determining wheter or not a lion is going to fight or chase. Which is just not the case.
They may also be so confident that Skorro isnt much of a threat that they just ignore him. They may also understand its pointless to take unnecessary risks in a 1 vs 1 when you know it will be 1 vs 2 later and so on.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Tr1x24 - 10-04-2023
(10-04-2023, 05:37 AM)Mapokser Wrote: As for your question, after Nhenha got injured in the fight, a week or so after the incident Nhenha stole an impala kill from a leopard. Smaller PCM showed up but Nhenha refused to give it up as he was desperate, smaller PCM refused to engage and only attacked when his brother arrived. This was witnessed by a ranger and reported, in fact the ranger filmed it but refused to share it.
Source?
Even if it played like that, there is no reason for him to attack solo if he knows his brother is with him, that has nothing to do with confidence, its teamplay.
(10-04-2023, 08:52 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: You make it sound as if confidence is the sole factor in determining wheter or not a lion is going to fight or chase. Which is just not the case.
They may also be so confident that Skorro isnt much of a threat that they just ignore him. They may also understand its pointless to take unnecessary risks in a 1 vs 1 when you know it will be 1 vs 2 later and so on.
Exactly.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Mapokser - 10-04-2023
@Tr1x24 Nhenha thing is in the Birmingham thread, you read the information and accepted it at the time, but must have forgotten it. @criollo2mil probably knows/remember who the ranger was as he was the one giving some details, though I remember it also being shared in detail on facebook. Brahim was the first to report it: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-the-birmingham-males?page=207
Later more details were given, meaning Nhenha refused to give the impala away until second PCM arrived and together they gave him the new injuries we saw in the video of him with Tumbela and Othawas.
And it's obvious confidence, one day he is confident enough to chase 2 lions by himself, and in another day he isn't confident enough to try to chase off a nomad from his carcass and territory 1v1. You think just because he was confident enough to chase 2 lions once it means he will always be equally confident every single day, which is not how lions behave.
@Duco Ndona confidence is the most important factor. Even if the PCM doesn't think of Tumbela as a threat to them ( which makes no sense as he is a healthy adult male ) he is still a huge threat to their prides and is competition for food, competition for the PCM's food, in their territory. Do you think PCM would have tolerated Tumbela if he was a leopard? Obviously not, he'd have treed the leopard in half a second, but an adult healthy male is something else.
Their job is to get rid of him, he didn't chase him out of that moment not because he didn't want to, but because he wasn't confident enough to do it.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Duco Ndona - 10-05-2023
Confidence does not just randomly plummet or skyrocket on a daily basis.
And while confidence is a important factor. Its just not the sole factor as you make it out to be. A lot of those interaction can be explained by other factors.
Its just as easily possible that the PCmales just weren't interested in taking unnecessary risks when they waited for eachother in confronting Nhenha. Nhenha was still strong enough to cause damage, even if victory would have been assured in 1vs1. So 1vs2 is always preferd if possible.
And regarding the Tumbella incident. If they went a period between food, getting a meal would be far more on their mind. If they were expecting a lioness to come into estrus. Going of chasing other males could mean missing your chance. Both would have a far higher priority than chasing a weaker rival from their territory.
Speaking off territory. I dont think they concider that part of the reserve as their core territory. They probably think of them more as a small pride and rival at the border of their territory. So much less of a concern.
I agree that the PCmales are dropping the ball if it comes to their duties towards the Ximhungwes. They indeed should have killed Skorro a long time ago.
But confidence probably is not the reason for it.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Tr1x24 - 10-05-2023
(10-04-2023, 11:29 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @Tr1x24 Nhenha thing is in the Birmingham thread, you read the information and accepted it at the time, but must have forgotten it. @criollo2mil probably knows/remember who the ranger was as he was the one giving some details, though I remember it also being shared in detail on facebook. Brahim was the first to report it: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-the-bir...s?page=207
Im not denying that encounter didnt happen, yet what exactly happen.
This is what Brahim posted :
"Nhenha stole an impala kill from a leopard yesterday and plains came after him. Probably not serious attack they were interested in the impala more than him."
From where did you get these details you described?
Regardles, as is off topic.
And no, confidence is not the only reason why lions will attack or fight, theres plenty of other reasons which can influence that:
1. Food - when theres food around, lions mostly prioritize food over fighting/territorial stuff (thats why you see many sightings where rivals and unrelated lions share food or just claim/defend it without further chasing/clashing).
2. Submissve behavior - behaving submissive can get you out of many tricky situations, as with that you are showing dominant lion that he is in charge and you are not a threat, meaning that dominant male might not attack.
3. Female in heat - sometimes males will prioritize female over territorial duty, this can be seen on recent clip of S8 guarding female from Kruger male, if there was no female around, S8 would attack him and chase him out.
4. Health/injury - lions will often not attack unhealthy/injured lion, as they feel they are no threat in that condition. Yes, lions feel "power" lvls.
And prob many more factors what only lions themselves know.
Why PCM didnt attack and chase Tumbela? Is mostly because of some reasons above.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Mapokser - 10-05-2023
@Tr1x24 I could keep reading the thread where the details were given ( it's there unless posts were deleted ) but anyway let's just agree to disagree.
I'll just say I strongly disagree females in heat is a reason lions wouldn't attack, I'd say they are much more likely to attack if there's a female in heat around.
But I agree 100% they can feel power levels, and this IMO is one of the reasons PCM didn't attack and Tumbela didn't ran, current Tumbela hasn't looked so strong in a very long time.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Duco Ndona - 10-05-2023
They would guard the females. But wont go out of their way to confront males further away as they dont want to leave the lioness alone.
Recent ailments aside. The problem with Skorro has always been his attitude. He acts big, but all it takes is a distant roar from a big enough rival to flee. The PCmales know this and keep him away that way. It works for them as they get the food and mating from the Ximhungwes. Not as well for the pride ascSkorro returns once the PCmales leave.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Mapokser - 10-05-2023
Males get very aggressive when females are in estrus, Shishangeni were ousted in a big fight against Gomondwane because there was a female in heat and both coalitions wanted her and the chasing ans fighting happened when she was mating with one of the coalitions, which was noticed by the ranger to have made them morr aggressive and willing to fight.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Horizon - 10-05-2023
(10-05-2023, 02:27 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: food and mating from the Ximhungwes.Food and mating? Thought you prefer to use "Food and sex".
Ximhungwe's cubs were accepted by the bigger PC male. Not sure what would be the deal with the smaller PC male. An then Tumbela male... If they disappear this time, likely it will be because of Tumbela male.