+- WildFact (https://wildfact.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Information Section (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-information-section)
+--- Forum: Terrestrial Wild Animals (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-terrestrial-wild-animals)
+---- Forum: Wild Cats (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-wild-cats)
+----- Forum: Lion (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-lion)
+----- Thread: Lions of Timbavati (/topic-lions-of-timbavati)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
335
336
337
338
339
340
341
342
343
344
345
346
347
348
349
350
351
352
353
354
355
356
357
358
359
360
361
362
363
364
365
366
367
368
369
370
371
372
373
374
375
376
377
378
379
380
381
382
383
384
385
386
387
388
389
390
391
392
393
394
395
396
397
398
399
400
401
402
403
404
405
406
407
408
409
410
411
412
413
414
415
416
417
418
419
420
421
422
423
424
425
426
427
428
429
430
431
432
433
434
435
436
437
438
439
440
441
442
443
444
445
446
447
448
449
450
451
452
453
454
455
456
457
458
459
460
461
462
463
464
465
466
467
468
469
470
471
472
473
474
475
476
477
478
479
480
481
482
483
484
485
486
487
488
489
490
491
492
493
494
495
496
497
498
499
500
501
502
503
504
505
506
507
508
509
510
511
512
513
514
515
516
517
518
519
520
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Mapokser - 07-09-2024
Larger Mbiri male asserts his dominance at a kill:
So glad to see them looking so good at 10.5, at the beginning of the year when they left their pride and were looking very skinny I thought I'd never see them in top condition again.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Hairy tummy - 07-09-2024
Zig zag must have one of the largest heads in the business. Great to see him doing so well
RE: Lions of Timbavati - T I N O - 07-10-2024
The white Birmingham male seen recently in Umbabat at Nsala wilderness camp
Photo credit: Shoas Shaun
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Lions of Timbavati - BA0701 - 07-10-2024
(07-10-2024, 07:13 PM)T I N O Wrote: The white Birmingham male seen recently in Umbabat at Nsala wilderness camp
Photo credit: Shoas Shaun
*This image is copyright of its original author
What a perfect shot, a super rare white male lion, who is looking amazing btw, and a termite mound that takes the shape of a pyramid.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - KM600 - 07-10-2024
Not sure if anyone is gonna be able to answer this but imma ask it anyways. So as we all know, lions with darker manes are always said to have higher testosterone levels than their counterparts right. Are white lions assumed to have lower testosterone than their brothers / coalition members? Always wondered because when I’ve seen photos of Casper, I’ve noticed he does have a lil darkness in his mane and yet as far as I know, was seen as the least dominant member. I have actually tried researching this myself but it never led to anything, so I’m not entirely sure there’s an answer.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Tr1x24 - 07-10-2024
(07-10-2024, 09:06 PM)KM600 Wrote: Not sure if anyone is gonna be able to answer this but imma ask it anyways. So as we all know, lions with darker manes are always said to have higher testosterone levels than their counterparts right. Are white lions assumed to have lower testosterone than their brothers / coalition members? Always wondered because when I’ve seen photos of Casper, I’ve noticed he does have a lil darkness in his mane and yet as far as I know, was seen as the least dominant member. I have actually tried researching this myself but it never led to anything, so I’m not entirely sure there’s an answer.
I dont think this applies for white gene males, they are "anomaly".
Also, theres no "evidence" that supports this theory that darker maned males are more dominant then blondish ones.
Just as we have coalitions where dark maned males where most dominant, we also have coalitions where they where not.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - BA0701 - 07-10-2024
(07-10-2024, 10:56 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(07-10-2024, 09:06 PM)KM600 Wrote: Not sure if anyone is gonna be able to answer this but imma ask it anyways. So as we all know, lions with darker manes are always said to have higher testosterone levels than their counterparts right. Are white lions assumed to have lower testosterone than their brothers / coalition members? Always wondered because when I’ve seen photos of Casper, I’ve noticed he does have a lil darkness in his mane and yet as far as I know, was seen as the least dominant member. I have actually tried researching this myself but it never led to anything, so I’m not entirely sure there’s an answer.
I dont think this applies for white gene males, they are "anomaly".
Also, theres no "evidence" that supports this theory that darker maned males are more dominant then blondish ones.
Just as we have coalitions where dark maned males where most dominant, we also have coalitions where they where not.
While I agree, the white gene males are the result of a genetic anomaly, though different from albinism, it is the result of a genetic marker that leads to this specific lack of pigment, while the eyes and the nose remain a color that is not pink.
But, about the testosterone causing darker manes evidence. After watching Brothers in Blood, I was left under the impression, based on the comments of that researcher in the movie, that they know this to be the case. He, obviously, did not delve into the subject, but his comment "we know that black maned males have a higher testosterone count" was said in a way as to lead one to believe it was factually based. Is that not true, have they not actually looked into that deep?
An interesting aside, back when I was reading about the white lions, one thing I came across was that they still permit trophy hunting of lions in the Greater Timbavati region, I assume that comment was referring to areas like the dreaded Sandrigham, which as you found, yourself, that reserve is known to permit poaching.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Tr1x24 - 07-10-2024
(07-10-2024, 11:18 PM)BA0701 Wrote: But, about the testosterone causing darker manes evidence. After watching Brothers in Blood, I was left under the impression, based on the comments of that researcher in the movie, that they know this to be the case. He, obviously, did not delve into the subject, but his comment "we know that black maned males have a higher testosterone count" was said in a way as to lead one to believe it was factually based. Is that not true, have they not actually looked into that deep?
Higher testosterone lvls yes, but does that means that darker maned males are more dominant? I think theres more in play.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Potato - 07-11-2024
(07-10-2024, 09:06 PM)KM600 Wrote: So as we all know, lions with darker manes are always said to have higher testosterone levels than their counterparts right.There are no stydys (at least as far as I know) no that. Guides just seeing that darker maned males were statistically more often dominant than their coalition mates acme to conclusion they must have higher testosteron levels, making males more agressive and giving them better odds in competing with other males.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Duco Ndona - 07-11-2024
Cut off the testes and the mane falls out. Give a lioness testosteron and the mane grows.
So there obviously is a link there. But genetics probably also plays a bigger role. We have seen plenty of lions never developing a black mane despite being fully territorial and confident in their position.
Its also not indicative of rank in a coalition. Afterall the top ranking lion may experience far more stress than a middle ranked lion as he feels he needs to defend his position more. Which would result in a lighter mane.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Mapokser - 07-11-2024
Their color is probably unrelated to normal lion conventions but our sample of white dominant male lions is way too small to even try to make an educated guess based on empirical evidence.
Edit: as far as dark manes go, let's not forget that Doctor Craig Packer ( probably the greatest lion expert and researcher of all times ) straight up said that dark-maned lions have higher testosterone levels and are "quite superior" and "when they fight, we expect the dark-maned lion to defeat the blond lion".
He made studies to back up his claims while he and other researchers would play roars and use dummy lions of cardboard to oust the resident males.
He found out that the lionesses would often show a lot of interest in the dark-maned fake lions, as well as that while the blond males would be more likely to get ousted, the dark-maned lions would rush to confront the enemy and attack the dummy lion.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Rabubi - 07-11-2024
There are studies that were conducted by Peyton West and Dr Craig Packer, experts in lion behavior and ecology, that indeed indicate that the more testosterone male lions have, the darker the mane becomes (of course, factors like genetics and age play a role but a positive correlation between mane colour and serum testosterone has been observed nonetheless).
Here is one of their papers: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1073257
That being said, a dark/black mane and high testosterone, are not the be-all and end-all when it comes to dominance, as @Tr1x24 mentioned. A case in point that comes to mind is Shaka Mbiri. He has a much lighter and shorter male than ZigZag but even the guides have mentioned how Shaka would get the better of his brother in fights.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Mapokser - 07-11-2024
I agree with Rabubi but idk if the Mbiris are a perfect example of a lighter-maned male being more dominant. While there was a report of Shaka dominating Scar over mating rights of the Mayambula females back in 2018 or 2019, there was another one later where the brothers fought over the Skorro females, Scar won and chased Shaka off.
These, to my knowledge, are the only reports of mating rights fights between the 2 that we have, so it's 1-1.
Still, we have footage of Scar mating with 3 Mbiri females at the same time while the guide said Shaka was still around, so it could be another instance where Scar was more dominant. Out of the 6 Mayambula males, I think at least 4 resemble Scar, though this doesn't mean much necessarily.
My impression - and that's only an impression - is that Shaka was more dominant earlier on while Scar became more dominant later on in their career.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - BA0701 - 07-11-2024
(07-11-2024, 12:53 AM)Rabubi Wrote: There are studies that were conducted by Peyton West and Dr Craig Packer, experts in lion behavior and ecology, that indeed indicate that the more testosterone male lions have, the darker the mane becomes (of course, factors like genetics and age play a role but a positive correlation between mane colour and serum testosterone has been observed nonetheless).
Here is one of their papers: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1073257
That being said, a dark/black mane and high testosterone, are not the be-all and end-all when it comes to dominance, as @Tr1x24 mentioned. A case in point that comes to mind is Shaka Mbiri. He has a much lighter and shorter male than ZigZag but even the guides have mentioned how Shaka would get the better of his brother in fights.
Is Doctor Craig Packer the gentleman from Brothers in Blood, who made that comment? If so, your comment would certainly explain why he made it in such a matter of fact way.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Mapokser - 07-11-2024
That's him, yes, he is in Brothers in Blood and does make the comment about dark manes.