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+----- Thread: Lions of Timbavati (/topic-lions-of-timbavati)
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RE: Lions of Timbavati - Potato - 04-13-2024
(04-13-2024, 04:30 AM)Mapokser Wrote: and the healthy male isn't confident to challenge 1v1.
(04-13-2024, 04:59 AM)Timbavati Wrote: Very likely he doesn’t feel confidence to clash 1v1 with any other male. Which makes sense as he isn’t in his best condition.Well... If at the point he is not able at the point to fight adult males 1 on 1 then he is probably not strong enough to become dominant male ever at all. He is aproaching 6 years old. If at that point he can not handle 12 years old Mapoza male, it is very unlikely he can count on getting any easier opportunity.
(04-13-2024, 04:59 AM)Timbavati Wrote: Which makes sense as he isn’t in his best condition.
(04-13-2024, 10:24 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: And Mapoza, yes he is getting older, but he is beast himselfHe never was that much of a beast and now he is 12 years old.
(04-13-2024, 10:24 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: even their father BDMBDM was big, but he wasn't much of a fighter. Still he was chasing and intimidating Mapoza male on at least one ocassion.
(04-13-2024, 10:24 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: and Mapoza injured last Trilogy male in 1vs1, from which he died later.1. As far as I remember onone has actually seen who killed Trilogy male and it is only speculation that it was Mapoza.
2. Trilogy at that point was walking dead. In such condition even females or hyenas could have killed him so it is not and acomplishment even if indeed Mapoza was the one who killed him and done that by himself.
(04-13-2024, 10:24 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Mapoza is also slowly getting pressured by 4 BDMsThey are not. They are just sitting in the south of the reserve. If they would want to take over mapoza's territory, they would just easly do so, they wouldn't "slowly pressuring" him.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Tr1x24 - 04-13-2024
(04-13-2024, 12:36 PM)Potato Wrote: Well... If at the point he is not able at the point to fight adult males 1 on 1 then he is probably not strong enough to become dominant male ever at all. He is aproaching 6 years old. If at that point he can not handle 12 years old Mapoza male, it is very unlikely he can count on getting any easier opportunity.
Give me 1 example where nomadic male become territotial by beating territorial male in 1vs1,who is healthy, I'll wait.
All those lone males who become territorial became by taking abandoned pride in vacant area.
Just to name few in these areas like OM, S8, RRM, Mapoza, BDM, Giraffe male, Skybed son etc.
1vs1 takeovers just dont happen, especially not by lone nomadic young male against territorial healthy male.
Takeovers like S8 vs DM avoca, happen only because DM was injured, and even then S8 was not some nomadic young male, yet prime territorial male for years.
Prime Maputo male couldnt oust 12 yrs old Kumana male, yet they joined forces.
So saying that young nomad can alone oust prime male like Hercules, who has 20+ lions behind him, or even 12 yrs old, still healthy Mapoza, who also has big pride with cubs to protect behind him, is delusion, as things like this just dont happen.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Potato - 04-13-2024
(04-13-2024, 01:13 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Give me 1 example where nomadic male become territotial by beating territorial male in 1vs1,who is healthy, I'll wait.That is mostly beacuse seeing two loners competing for the same territory is very rare to begin with. How many such examples do you know? Give me such, I'll wait. When it happen then of course one male can take territory from another. Giraffe male took over Black Dam pride from Black Dam male, Black Dam male took Giraffe pride from Mapoza male. Also Kruger male would probably take over territory from Imbali male if Imbali wouldn't pass away ealier.
If you can beat your opponent then you can oust him as well, simply as that.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Duco Ndona - 04-13-2024
Technically Skorro Tumbella and Nyms conflict over the Ximhungwe pride could count. Though that was more between two opportunistic semi nomadic lions.
Solitary lions often struggle a lot in life. They have to work hard with often little rewards. Food is never a certainty and without a backup to fall back on when injured, any form of confrontation is a mayor risk for them.
A solitary pride male however, has a solid source of food, even when injured and the mental boost of the lionesses. So he will be in a much better shape and position during a fight.
So indeed. These sorts of takeovers are unlikely. More often the nomadic male just avoids the other.
Though one never knows how a cow catches a hare. If the nomadic male finds the territorial one in the perfect circumstance, all bets are off. So 1vs1 takeovers shouldnt be ruled out entirely.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Tr1x24 - 04-13-2024
(04-13-2024, 03:10 PM)Potato Wrote: That is mostly beacuse seeing two loners competing for the same territory is very rare to begin with. How many such examples do you know? Give me such, I'll wait. When it happen then of course one male can take territory from another. Giraffe male took over Black Dam pride from Black Dam male, Black Dam male took Giraffe pride from Mapoza male. Also Kruger male would probably take over territory from Imbali male if Imbali wouldn't pass away ealier.
If you can beat your opponent then you can oust him as well, simply as that.
Yes, they are rare because nomadic males are avoiding it, they know they cant succeed (or should i say, afford to lose) as nomad to challenge territorial male. And all that what you are saying where "takeovers" where former male was in process or already abandoned former pride for new one, and then that new male came in his place, as are some of my examples aswell.
Theres just no example which i know where young nomad directly ousted healthy territorial male in 1vs1 into nomadhood, because it didnt or very, i mean very rarely happens.
So no, Giraffe, or any other lone nomad, pretty much cant oust healthy territorial male in 1vs1, unless that male is unhealthy, injured, very old, or if he is already in proccess of abandoning that territory and pride.
Closest we got was prime nomadic Maputo challenging old Kumana, and even he didnt oust him, they eventually link.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Potato - 04-13-2024
(04-13-2024, 03:45 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Yes, they are rare because nomadic males are avoiding itNo, that is because:
1. Lone territorial males are rare think in general.
2. Lone nomads are rather rare in general. Even if such happens as particular male does not have any brother, he still is looking for a unrelated parter and hence does not remain loner for long.
3. Having lone territorial male and lone nomad endng up in the same terriotry and competing for it is like rare x rare.
4. Ading next conditions like both must be 100% healty, both must be in 100% prime and what else and you have somethink very, very rare to happen.
(04-13-2024, 03:45 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: So no, Giraffe, or any other lone nomad, pretty much cant oust healthy territorial male in 1vs1He can if he is stronger. He can not if he is not simply as that.
(04-13-2024, 03:45 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Closest we got was prime nomadic Maputo challenging old Kumana, and even he didnt oust him, they eventually link.Even such a "draw" would already made Giraffe male territorial.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Tr1x24 - 04-13-2024
(04-13-2024, 04:06 PM)Potato Wrote: 1. Lone territorial males are rare think in general.
Are they? This year in only Timbavati and Manyeleti surroundings, which is small sample compared to Kruger, we currently have 6 lone territorial males (Skorokoro, Hercules, Mapoza, RRM, Skybed son, Kruger male), 7 if you count S8 who died not long ago.
And in recent years we also had guys like already mentioned S8, OM, BDM, Giraffe male etc.
So its definetly not rare, atleast in this part of Kruger.
And i dont remember none of those males getting challenged by lone nomad.
(04-13-2024, 04:06 PM)Potato Wrote: 2. Lone nomads are rather rare in general. Even if such happens as particular male does not have any brother, he still is looking for a unrelated parter and hence does not remain loner for long.
Again, lone nomads are also not rare at all, only in small Sabi Sands you currently have 5 lone nomadic male lions who are alone for quite some time and doesnt look they will form some coalition with each others, as some did but didnt stick for long (NK, Skorro breakaway, Tumbela, S.Avoca and freshly Talamati).
(04-13-2024, 04:06 PM)Potato Wrote: 3. Having lone territorial male and lone nomad endng up in the same terriotry and competing for it is like rare x rare.
As i said, neither lone territorial males or lone nomads are that rare, so theres quit a chance that they can be in same or near by area, lions thru roars know who is all in the neighbouring area and if he is alone or not, even if they are not exactly in their territory.
Yet, we dont see any lone nomad challenging territorial loner, because its almost imposible to beat him alone.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Potato - 04-13-2024
(04-13-2024, 04:55 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Are they? This year in only Timbavati and Manyeleti surroundings, which is small sample compared to Kruger, we currently have 6 lone territorial males (Skorokoro, Hercules, Mapoza, RRM, Skybed son, Kruger male), 7 if you count S8 who died not long ago.If you look at it from the perspective of 15 past years, not just the current times and consider for how long they happen to be territorial I would say it is rare. It of course happens when dominant coalition at some point is getting down to single male and and for some time (not long ussually) he keeps his territory untill younger coalition takes over, but cases like RRM when single male takes over terriotry by himself and remain dominant for considerable amount of time are rare.
(04-13-2024, 04:55 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Again, lone nomads are also not rare at all, only in small Sabi Sands you currently have 5 lone nomadic male lions who are alone for quite some time and doesnt look they will form some coalition with each others, as some did but didnt stick for long (NK, Skorro breakaway, Tumbela, S.Avoca and freshly Talamati).Again, look at further peroid of time. That it happens now, it doesn't mean it isn't rare.
(04-13-2024, 04:55 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: As i said, neither lone territorial males or lone nomads are that rare, so theres quit a chance that they can be in same or near by areaName one example pls. Also another think to take into consideration that even when such situation occur then still nomad won't challange dominant male simply because dominant male is stronger (is dominant for a reason) so what is the point of challenging guy that would simply beat up the contender. Does it applay here however when we talk about 12 years old Mapoza and prime Giraffe male. My guess would be Giraffe male should at least hold his own even assuming limpy Monwana wouldn't be any help at all. Also young, fit and strong looking Avoca male could be serious problem for Mapoza if he comes into this arena.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Tr1x24 - 04-13-2024
(04-13-2024, 08:52 PM)Potato Wrote: Also another think to take into consideration that even when such situation occur then still nomad won't challange dominant male simply because dominant male is stronger (is dominant for a reason) so what is the point of challenging guy that would simply beat up the contender.
Thats exactly what im trying to say.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Mapokser - 04-13-2024
@Tr1x24 Mapoza killed Trilogy 1v1?
I didn't know Mapoza was so strong, isn't him the one who, with his brother, lost to 3,5yo Mbiris in their own territory? According to Potato, Trilogy was very weak.
1v1 take overs are rare, indeed, I can't remember any right now, but Nhlanguleni challenged 2 in 2005 in the Western Sector of SS, killed one and ousted the other. Dzunani in 2008 also challenged 2 in Manyeleti, a coalition of a young and old males, but still 2, killing one and ousting the other.
@Potato gotta disagree about BDM not being a fighter, he has confrontations 1v1 which he almost always won. He even had a small fight with the bigger Mbiri, it doesn't get better than that.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Tr1x24 - 04-13-2024
(04-13-2024, 11:09 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Mapoza killed Trilogy 1v1?
He didnt kill him directly, but give him a beating from which he eventually died, but yea, he was quite old and in weak condition, which also contributed to his demise.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Potato - 04-13-2024
(04-13-2024, 11:09 PM)Mapokser Wrote: gotta disagree about BDM not being a fighter, he has confrontations 1v1 which he almost always won. He even had a small fight with the bigger Mbiri, it doesn't get better than that.
He had some, but I do not think he ever searched for it. He could fight of course as any male lion, but he was striking me as a "I will try to ouintimidate you, I do not want to get my paws dirty" type, not a "I do not care, lets rumble" type. In that encounter with a Zig Zak I would bet a lot that it was Mbiri male who got into action and the BD was left with no other choice than to fight back.
I get that impression looking at his encounter with Monwana males, his encounters with Mapoza male and that he just let it go when Giraffe male moved to take over Black Dam pride.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Potato - 04-13-2024
(04-13-2024, 11:09 PM)Mapokser Wrote: According to Potato, Trilogy was very weakHe was on the edge of starvation on top of being already very old.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Mwk85 - 04-14-2024
Two of the Northern Black Dam males seen moving north into Monwana Pride territory. Hope the pride and Mapoza can avoid them if they linger around for some time.
RE: Lions of Timbavati - Cath2020 - 04-14-2024
(04-13-2024, 08:49 AM)Timbavati Wrote:(04-13-2024, 07:48 AM)Friarfan619 Wrote: I'm not familiar is the limp cause by human lion or hunt injury??
Unsuccessful hunt
I'm not contesting this, but where did you hear that this was definitely caused by a hunt gone wrong? I read it was caused by something else entirely.
That leg looks so deformed, like it would be quite unusual for a bad hunt to cause that kind of position/atrophy....but if a guide/ranger actually saw it happen and you heard it firsthand from such a person, then I'll keep an open mind.