(08-16-2023, 03:12 PM)Horizon Wrote:

(08-18-2023, 03:40 PM)Zigzag Wrote: Zigzag Mbiri male & Birmingham pride yesterday
Credit - Theron

*This image is copyright of its original author

(08-18-2023, 07:20 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote:

(08-18-2023, 03:40 PM)Zigzag Wrote: Zigzag Mbiri male & Birmingham pride yesterday
Credit - Theron

*This image is copyright of its original author

Why is there so much inbreeding in the timbavati/ manyleti area the Mbiris males with their fathers natal pride the tintswalo males with their natal pride the northern black Dam males with their fathers brothers pride which is their I think cousins the 7 avocas adding the 2 xikukutsu males and many other I believe

(08-18-2023, 09:05 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: You can get away with it once or twice. But each generation will be more genetically inferior and vulnerable than the previous one. At one point it reaches a point where it prevents the group from coping with a new challenge and the entire population is put at risk. Even when things look fine on the surface, a vulnerability to a specific illness may spread through the entire population. Resulting in a mass dieoff once that illness itself appears.

Nature typically has a lot of safeguards against this. So if this happens a lot in a reserve it means there is something severely wrong that prevents new generations from migrating in- or outward or older generations from being killed or otherwise taken out of the gene pool when they should. It may be wise for the reserve to relocate lions to keep the population healthy or look into opening routes to other reserves if possible.

(08-18-2023, 09:05 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: You can get away with it once or twice. But each generation will be more genetically inferior and vulnerable than the previous one. At one point it reaches a point where it prevents the group from coping with a new challenge and the entire population is put at risk. Even when things look fine on the surface, a vulnerability to a specific illness may spread through the entire population. Resulting in a mass dieoff once that illness itself appears.

Nature typically has a lot of safeguards against this. So if this happens a lot in a reserve it means there is something severely wrong that prevents new generations from migrating in- or outward or older generations from being killed or otherwise taken out of the gene pool when they should. It may be wise for the reserve to relocate lions to keep the population healthy or look into opening routes to other reserves if possible.

(08-18-2023, 09:49 PM)BA0701 Wrote: I am not arguing with, or even debating you, this is a legitimate question. Are there any studies, or other proof that this is the case in wild animals, namely lions? If there are, I'd love to read them, to better educate myself on something I've often wondered about. I am not aware of any studies on the matter, and can only point to Loonkito's pride as an example, where, as you stated, on the surface all seems well. I have even mentioned in posts about him, that if there was ever a pride that could be used for such a study, then I cannot think of a better example. I doubt such an example will occur again in the wild, certainly not in our lifetimes, if ever, where a single male is dominant for such an extended period of time over the same pride. I cannot even think of another example of such an event, certainly not in the last few decades, none that I am aware of. Even in a closed environment, like a zoo, they frequently move their males around to avoid such occurrences

(08-18-2023, 10:06 PM)Wyld@Heart Wrote:

(08-18-2023, 09:49 PM)BA0701 Wrote: I am not arguing with, or even debating you, this is a legitimate question. Are there any studies, or other proof that this is the case in wild animals, namely lions? If there are, I'd love to read them, to better educate myself on something I've often wondered about. I am not aware of any studies on the matter, and can only point to Loonkito's pride as an example, where, as you stated, on the surface all seems well. I have even mentioned in posts about him, that if there was ever a pride that could be used for such a study, then I cannot think of a better example. I doubt such an example will occur again in the wild, certainly not in our lifetimes, if ever, where a single male is dominant for such an extended period of time over the same pride. I cannot even think of another example of such an event, certainly not in the last few decades, none that I am aware of. Even in a closed environment, like a zoo, they frequently move their males around to avoid such occurrences

There have been, the ones I know of are specific to lions of Ngorongoro where inbreeding is pretty much unavoidable. 

https://conbio.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1523-1739.1991.tb00127.x

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://cbs.umn.edu/sites/cbs.umn.edu/files/migrated-files/downloads/Case_Study_of_Population_Bottleneck_Lions_of_Ngorongoro.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiCypes1-aAAxX8QvEDHW-xCYAQFnoECCoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3s5B1Wp_BCtbWjFlv8FEj0

I hope the links work. There are also a few others about. Some 'light' reading, haha.

(08-18-2023, 10:06 PM)Wyld@Heart Wrote:

(08-18-2023, 09:49 PM)BA0701 Wrote: I am not arguing with, or even debating you, this is a legitimate question. Are there any studies, or other proof that this is the case in wild animals, namely lions? If there are, I'd love to read them, to better educate myself on something I've often wondered about. I am not aware of any studies on the matter, and can only point to Loonkito's pride as an example, where, as you stated, on the surface all seems well. I have even mentioned in posts about him, that if there was ever a pride that could be used for such a study, then I cannot think of a better example. I doubt such an example will occur again in the wild, certainly not in our lifetimes, if ever, where a single male is dominant for such an extended period of time over the same pride. I cannot even think of another example of such an event, certainly not in the last few decades, none that I am aware of. Even in a closed environment, like a zoo, they frequently move their males around to avoid such occurrences

There have been, the ones I know of are specific to lions of Ngorongoro where inbreeding is pretty much unavoidable. 

https://conbio.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1523-1739.1991.tb00127.x

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://cbs.umn.edu/sites/cbs.umn.edu/files/migrated-files/downloads/Case_Study_of_Population_Bottleneck_Lions_of_Ngorongoro.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiCypes1-aAAxX8QvEDHW-xCYAQFnoECCoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3s5B1Wp_BCtbWjFlv8FEj0

I hope the links work. There are also a few others about. Some 'light' reading, haha.