(10-05-2020, 11:37 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: UPDATED CERRADO MALE JAGUARS TABLE.

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13 individuals and the year of Macharrão male's capture that was recently published by IOP.

(03-07-2021, 05:58 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: ADRIANO'S MEASUREMENTS

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He is here, the first jaguar that debuted this thread and back then I noticed he had the wrong 158 kg claim by the photographer which was debunked by Fernando Tortato with Adriano ( AKA Tel or Teo ) weighing 130 kg.

During a nice discussion about jaguars with Rafael Hoogesteijn I asked the measurements of Adriano (or Tel), he said unfortunately he doesn't have them but then he suggested me to get Tel's measurements with Fernando Tortato since him and Joares May were the Head of that capture.

Rafael Hoogesteijn and Fernando Tortato call him Tel, he is also known by Panthera researchers with the codename as M11.

Rafael told me Tel's capture was a day to never forget in December 12th 2012.

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Measure Method

Fernando Tortato said they often use over the curves and with Tel/Adriano they used a malleable tape measure  that involves the body of the animal ( I noticed it before his answer as soon as I saw Adriano/Tel shoulder height ).

However Rafael Hoogesteijn said the jaguars he captured in Llanos he measured on straight lines, just like Dr Crawshaw told me, he said over the curves will end up enlongating the size of the animal which is an inaccurate method.

M11 (Teo/Adriano) Measurements.

Measure Method: Over the Curves.

Head Girth: 75.6cm
Neck Girth: 67cm
Chest Girth: 109cm
Shoulder Height: 85cm
Body Length: 152cm
Tail Length: 66cm
Total length: 218 cm
Weight: 130kg

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Message by Tortato.

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Teo's head circumference is what impressed me the most about his dimensions.

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Tel vs Pita

On the head girth Teo is 4.6 cm larger than Pita's head, that's really impressive. He definitely got a head size above the average.

However on the Neck girth department Pita is the record holder, the male to be beaten as no other jaguar on my books have beaten Pita's  whooping 70 cm of Neck girth, 3 cm thicker than Tel/Adriano's neck and 1.5 cm thicker than Almeidas thickest neck jaguar.

Chest girth wise I expected Tel/Adriano to be thicker than those 109 cm so it was a bit of a disappointment to me, so Tel/Adriano is 5 cm thinner than Pita's 114 cm chest. ( Dr Crawshaw was really serious when he said Pita is a very Bulky, wide, low to the ground jag ).

Shoulder Height was what led me to think Tel/Adriano was measured over the curves, with his 85 cm tall on the shoulders, 15 cm taller than Pita's shoulder (straight lines). Its clear Tel/Adriano is a bit shorter on the shoulder than that.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Total length wise with both cats measured differently ( Tortato told me the measuring tape followed all curves of Adriano's muscular body ) with that being said we can assure Tel/Adriano is slightly shorter than those 218 cm but I personally think Tel/Adriano in total body length would be slightly longer than Pita's total 207 cm if Tel was measured on straight lines because Tel got a tail 10 cm longer than Pita's tail. What I know for sure is that Jaguars are short and broad cats by nature.

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Tel AKA M11

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(03-07-2021, 06:26 AM)Balam Wrote:

(03-07-2021, 05:58 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: ADRIANO'S MEASUREMENTS

*This image is copyright of its original author

He is here, the first jaguar that debuted this thread and back then I noticed he had the wrong 158 kg claim by the photographer which was debunked by Fernando Tortato with Adriano ( AKA Tel or Teo ) weighing 130 kg.

During a nice discussion about jaguars with Rafael Hoogesteijn I asked the measurements of Adriano (or Tel), he said unfortunately he doesn't have them but then he suggested me to get Tel's measurements with Fernando Tortato since him and Joares May were the Head of that capture.

Rafael Hoogesteijn and Fernando Tortato call him Tel, he is also known by Panthera researchers with the codename as M11.

Rafael told me Tel's capture was a day to never forget in December 12th 2012.

---

Measure Method

Fernando Tortato said they often use over the curves and with Tel/Adriano they used a malleable tape measure  that involves the body of the animal ( I noticed it before his answer as soon as I saw Adriano/Tel shoulder height ).

However Rafael Hoogesteijn said the jaguars he captured in Llanos he measured on straight lines, just like Dr Crawshaw told me, he said over the curves will end up enlongating the size of the animal which is an inaccurate method.

M11 (Teo/Adriano) Measurements.

Measure Method: Over the Curves.

Head Girth: 75.6cm
Neck Girth: 67cm
Chest Girth: 109cm
Shoulder Height: 85cm
Body Length: 152cm
Tail Length: 66cm
Total length: 218 cm
Weight: 130kg

*This image is copyright of its original author

Message by Tortato.

*This image is copyright of its original author

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Teo's head circumference is what impressed me the most about his dimensions.

*This image is copyright of its original author

---

Tel vs Pita

On the head girth Teo is 4.6 cm larger than Pita's head, that's really impressive. He definitely got a head size above the average.

However on the Neck girth department Pita is the record holder, the male to be beaten as no other jaguar on my books have beaten Pita's  whooping 70 cm of Neck girth, 3 cm thicker than Tel/Adriano's neck and 1.5 cm thicker than Almeidas thickest neck jaguar.

Chest girth wise I expected Tel/Adriano to be thicker than those 109 cm so it was a bit of a disappointment to me, so Tel/Adriano is 5 cm thinner than Pita's 114 cm chest. ( Dr Crawshaw was really serious when he said Pita is a very Bulky, wide, low to the ground jag ).

Shoulder Height was what led me to think Tel/Adriano was measured over the curves, with his 85 cm tall on the shoulders, 15 cm taller than Pita's shoulder (straight lines). Its clear Tel/Adriano is a bit shorter on the shoulder than that.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Total length wise with both cats measured differently ( Tortato told me the measuring tape followed all curves of Adriano's muscular body ) with that being said we can assure Tel/Adriano is slightly shorter than those 218 cm but I personally think Tel/Adriano in total body length would be slightly longer than Pita's total 207 cm if Tel was measured on straight lines because Tel got a tail 10 cm longer than Pita's tail. What I know for sure is that Jaguars are short and broad cats by nature.

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Tel AKA M11

*This image is copyright of its original author

Really exciting to finally get his measurements, him having a large head circumference doesn't surprise me because I always thought his face was particularly imposing almost like a lion. Just like you, I'm surprised at the chest girth measurements since for a jaguar his size I would've expected something above 110 cm. Overall Ruxu was a very stocky jaguar but his frame was never necessarily the largest. 

Now, keep in mind that he was captured in 2012 and he first appeared in the PJ area in 2011, he was last seen in 2019. What this means is that he certainly grew bigger throughout the years and the weight and measurements captured initially by Panthera may not be the accurate measurements for him during his more senior days, and it's important to know for sure the ages of the cats being compared for context. For example, Joker on his initial capture had a total body length of 225 cm, but on his latest capture last year his body measured 250 cm, so he grew consistently from that period of time, which means that his outstanding measurements of 126 cm in chest circumference and his massive neck and head only got bigger with time, and thus I'm not surprised that he reached the mark of 140 kg on his second capture despite not being fully lifted (imagine how big he must be to reach that benchmark with such velocity), which would suggest he was actually much heavier than that.

I'd imagine that with Ruxu/Adriano/Telephone (he has so many names) his size also increased dramatically with time. Here he is in Nov 2015, IMO he looked much bigger than on his earlier days of being tracked when he was captured:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Another thing to keep in mind with over the curve measurements, in the event that the usual immature people would want to use these jaguar measurements to compare them to other cats, perhaps on the pointless VS debates on forums like Carnivora, the measurements of all other felids are too overwhelmingly taken following the curves of the body unless specified otherwise, so before anybody tries to discredit these measurements for elongating the body, remember that for other cats (like the ones they like to pit against jaguars) the measurements usually publicized for them would be elongated as well more often than not. This is the same case for weight collections, where it is assumed that the jaguars are always gorge and they must find ways to reduce their weight some way or another, but that same standard for stomach content (which often times the understanding of stomachal content is flawed since these people don't know anything about the metabolical absorption of food intake on felids) must be applied to other cats as well.

(03-07-2021, 08:53 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:

(03-07-2021, 06:26 AM)Balam Wrote:

(03-07-2021, 05:58 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: ADRIANO'S MEASUREMENTS

*This image is copyright of its original author

He is here, the first jaguar that debuted this thread and back then I noticed he had the wrong 158 kg claim by the photographer which was debunked by Fernando Tortato with Adriano ( AKA Tel or Teo ) weighing 130 kg.

During a nice discussion about jaguars with Rafael Hoogesteijn I asked the measurements of Adriano (or Tel), he said unfortunately he doesn't have them but then he suggested me to get Tel's measurements with Fernando Tortato since him and Joares May were the Head of that capture.

Rafael Hoogesteijn and Fernando Tortato call him Tel, he is also known by Panthera researchers with the codename as M11.

Rafael told me Tel's capture was a day to never forget in December 12th 2012.

---

Measure Method

Fernando Tortato said they often use over the curves and with Tel/Adriano they used a malleable tape measure  that involves the body of the animal ( I noticed it before his answer as soon as I saw Adriano/Tel shoulder height ).

However Rafael Hoogesteijn said the jaguars he captured in Llanos he measured on straight lines, just like Dr Crawshaw told me, he said over the curves will end up enlongating the size of the animal which is an inaccurate method.

M11 (Teo/Adriano) Measurements.

Measure Method: Over the Curves.

Head Girth: 75.6cm
Neck Girth: 67cm
Chest Girth: 109cm
Shoulder Height: 85cm
Body Length: 152cm
Tail Length: 66cm
Total length: 218 cm
Weight: 130kg

*This image is copyright of its original author

Message by Tortato.

*This image is copyright of its original author

---

Teo's head circumference is what impressed me the most about his dimensions.

*This image is copyright of its original author

---

Tel vs Pita

On the head girth Teo is 4.6 cm larger than Pita's head, that's really impressive. He definitely got a head size above the average.

However on the Neck girth department Pita is the record holder, the male to be beaten as no other jaguar on my books have beaten Pita's  whooping 70 cm of Neck girth, 3 cm thicker than Tel/Adriano's neck and 1.5 cm thicker than Almeidas thickest neck jaguar.

Chest girth wise I expected Tel/Adriano to be thicker than those 109 cm so it was a bit of a disappointment to me, so Tel/Adriano is 5 cm thinner than Pita's 114 cm chest. ( Dr Crawshaw was really serious when he said Pita is a very Bulky, wide, low to the ground jag ).

Shoulder Height was what led me to think Tel/Adriano was measured over the curves, with his 85 cm tall on the shoulders, 15 cm taller than Pita's shoulder (straight lines). Its clear Tel/Adriano is a bit shorter on the shoulder than that.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Total length wise with both cats measured differently ( Tortato told me the measuring tape followed all curves of Adriano's muscular body ) with that being said we can assure Tel/Adriano is slightly shorter than those 218 cm but I personally think Tel/Adriano in total body length would be slightly longer than Pita's total 207 cm if Tel was measured on straight lines because Tel got a tail 10 cm longer than Pita's tail. What I know for sure is that Jaguars are short and broad cats by nature.

---

Tel AKA M11

*This image is copyright of its original author

Really exciting to finally get his measurements, him having a large head circumference doesn't surprise me because I always thought his face was particularly imposing almost like a lion. Just like you, I'm surprised at the chest girth measurements since for a jaguar his size I would've expected something above 110 cm. Overall Ruxu was a very stocky jaguar but his frame was never necessarily the largest. 

Now, keep in mind that he was captured in 2012 and he first appeared in the PJ area in 2011, he was last seen in 2019. What this means is that he certainly grew bigger throughout the years and the weight and measurements captured initially by Panthera may not be the accurate measurements for him during his more senior days, and it's important to know for sure the ages of the cats being compared for context. For example, Joker on his initial capture had a total body length of 225 cm, but on his latest capture last year his body measured 250 cm, so he grew consistently from that period of time, which means that his outstanding measurements of 126 cm in chest circumference and his massive neck and head only got bigger with time, and thus I'm not surprised that he reached the mark of 140 kg on his second capture despite not being fully lifted (imagine how big he must be to reach that benchmark with such velocity), which would suggest he was actually much heavier than that.

I'd imagine that with Ruxu/Adriano/Telephone (he has so many names) his size also increased dramatically with time. Here he is in Nov 2015, IMO he looked much bigger than on his earlier days of being tracked when he was captured:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Another thing to keep in mind with over the curve measurements, in the event that the usual immature people would want to use these jaguar measurements to compare them to other cats, perhaps on the pointless VS debates on forums like Carnivora, the measurements of all other felids are too overwhelmingly taken following the curves of the body unless specified otherwise, so before anybody tries to discredit these measurements for elongating the body, remember that for other cats (like the ones they like to pit against jaguars) the measurements usually publicized for them would be elongated as well more often than not. This is the same case for weight collections, where it is assumed that the jaguars are always gorge and they must find ways to reduce their weight some way or another, but that same standard for stomach content (which often times the understanding of stomachal content is flawed since these people don't know anything about the metabolical absorption of food intake on felids) must be applied to other cats as well.

His head surprised me as I compared with Lopez's head which just by the looks it appears its gonna break the record, hopefully we'll soon find out.

Here's Teo still with his collar just to give you an idea of his dimensions at closest time of when he was captured. I agree he might've gotten thicker along the years.

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*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

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Joker we know he is measured over the curves so he is a bit shorter but its not a bad thing if you ask me, to me the jaguars main feature is the girth and width of their bodies by having the most muscular, chunky body of all the cats so wide/circumference wise they're no joker.  

Joker is still a long male though.

One Jaguar I am very excited about from the last captures by Onçafari is without a doubt Robusto male, I am very curios to know his circumference dimensions.

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I agree with you on if it is to compare with other big cats (and other jaguars) lengthwise it has to be compared by the same measuring method so its good to know FIRST which measure method was used before Seriously comparing one cat to the other, otherwise it would bring inaccurate nonsense discussions.

Pita and Teo's main comparisons here was the Circumference ones.

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Since you brought up stomach content I am gonna take advantage and post Shaka's capture in 2018 from onçafari's archive when he weighed his 131.6 kg.

At least from this angle He doesn't look THAT FULLY GORGED to me. What do you think ??

During their capture campaign that year of 2018 they captured 7 jaguars, 5 females and 2 males.

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Lastly don't forget Pita was captured at a second time and weighed 130 kg so his dimensions could've increased as well and it wouldn't surprise me if his already massive record holder 70 cm neck girth got slightly thicker.

But unfortunately Pita's second capture wasn't done by Dr Crawshaw, it was done with Denis Sana and Antonio Platero so it would be harder to get Pita's measurements at his 130 kg.

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122 kg Pita male captured by Dr.Crawshaw in 1994 in Porto Primavera.

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You can see that forelimbs of Pita, that's solid muscles at 70 cm on height between the pegs.

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That 114 cm thick chest girth by lifting up his whole chest though.

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Note his massive neck here.

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Just as you mentioned about Teo/M11 if he was captured by a second time he could be thicker I think Pita's second capture at 130 kg he could've surpassed his own already amazing prior dimensions as well.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

(03-08-2021, 04:12 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote: @Balam 
@Dark Jaguar 

Adriano is 85 cm at the shoulder which is much for a Jaguar since they are known for having short limbs. 
By the way, is a jaguar able to reach 90 cms at the shoulder in your opinion?

(03-08-2021, 11:24 PM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts I disagree that Lopez was bigger than Joker, imo Joker is easily the largest jaguar captured by a scientific organization and in recent records.

When he was captured last year he increased rather dramatically in total body length to 250 cm, knowing that the tail rarely ever grows past a certain age, he was not too far away from measuring 2 meters of body length, perhaps 185-190 during his second capture. This growth in length would also mean that his already outstanding chest girth measurement of 126 cm would have expanded even more, I wouldn't be surprised if he measured close to 130 cm in chest circumference or more. 

His weight was captured in the scale at 140 kg without him being fully lifted up, this means that it had a lot of velocity and he must have been much heavier than that. In the video of Lopez the biologists can be seen struggling to lift him up the ground but they managed to do it either way, with Joker it was not possible. I believe Joker is one of the rare 150+ kg jaguars.

To compare his measurements, here are some body measurements for African lions across different areas:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

The lion on the second graph had a weight of 177.5 kg, but his chest girth of 128 cm would be very similar to that of Joker, assuming Joker did not reach the 130 cm benchmark during his second capture, in which case he could've been even wider. The female at 145 kg too had a similar chest girth at 125 cm. The maximum value of chest girth for male lions of Kalahari was 126 cm as well, Joker in fact had larger measurements than all the lionesses from that sample and some males too, with the largest average of Rhodesian lions being closer to his measurements during the first capture.

Of course lions being taller some of the mass they pack will be spread across a larger frame, but Joker nonetheless compares and at times surpasses adult lions in areas where jaguar morphology is accentuated.

Another interesting point is that if you compare the total body length of Joker at 250 cm with the total body length of the lion and lioness from the second graph, and then subtract the tail length, Joker would still compare quite nicely in body length and may even be longer than the lioness slightly.

We don't know the methods of measurements for the lions but lions are usually measured following the curves of the body as can be exemplified by the Hobatere lions.

Joker is low to the ground but massive in all other areas, he has dimensions akin to a lion/tiger, and we know for a fact he weighed over 140 kg during his last capture. To me he is the clear record holder at the moment.

(03-08-2021, 11:43 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(03-08-2021, 11:24 PM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts I disagree that Lopez was bigger than Joker, imo Joker is easily the largest jaguar captured by a scientific organization and in recent records.

When he was captured last year he increased rather dramatically in total body length to 250 cm, knowing that the tail rarely ever grows past a certain age, he was not too far away from measuring 2 meters of body length, perhaps 185-190 during his second capture. This growth in length would also mean that his already outstanding chest girth measurement of 126 cm would have expanded even more, I wouldn't be surprised if he measured close to 130 cm in chest circumference or more. 

His weight was captured in the scale at 140 kg without him being fully lifted up, this means that it had a lot of velocity and he must have been much heavier than that. In the video of Lopez the biologists can be seen struggling to lift him up the ground but they managed to do it either way, with Joker it was not possible. I believe Joker is one of the rare 150+ kg jaguars.

To compare his measurements, here are some body measurements for African lions across different areas:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

The lion on the second graph had a weight of 177.5 kg, but his chest girth of 128 cm would be very similar to that of Joker, assuming Joker did not reach the 130 cm benchmark during his second capture, in which case he could've been even wider. The female at 145 kg too had a similar chest girth at 125 cm. The maximum value of chest girth for male lions of Kalahari was 126 cm as well, Joker in fact had larger measurements than all the lionesses from that sample and some males too, with the largest average of Rhodesian lions being closer to his measurements during the first capture.

Of course lions being taller some of the mass they pack will be spread across a larger frame, but Joker nonetheless compares and at times surpasses adult lions in areas where jaguar morphology is accentuated.

Another interesting point is that if you compare the total body length of Joker at 250 cm with the total body length of the lion and lioness from the second graph, and then subtract the tail length, Joker would still compare quite nicely in body length and may even be longer than the lioness slightly.

We don't know the methods of measurements for the lions but lions are usually measured following the curves of the body as can be exemplified by the Hobatere lions.

Joker is low to the ground but massive in all other areas, he has dimensions akin to a lion/tiger, and we know for a fact he weighed over 140 kg during his last capture. To me he is the clear record holder at the moment.

Were you able to get an actual body length on Joker for his second capture?

In regards to the measurements I've posted
Joker and Almeida's cat are realistically the same length and Almeida's Jaguar is actually shorter than Joker at the shoulder and with similar Neck Girths. It's the chest girth that seperates Joker but we must remember that Joker's chest girth isn't actually exact as Edu never flipped him over and wrapped the tape all the way around, he simply multiplied one side by 2 and we don't know if that makes a difference in total size or not. 

My guess is Joker is in the 130-140kg range unless his new capture produced some sizes that exceed what I've posted.
Can you post again where Edu or whoever captured joker specified his weight and body measurements?

Lopez is a 142kg Jaguar or more with no real bait taken during his capture, whether he's empty or not is unknown but he certainly wasn't full bellied.
We already know Adriano wasn't the biggest Jaguar in the North as Paulo told me years ago, Adriano was normal size but bulky so assuming at least Edno and Balam are larger than he with a few others as well, it's safe to say those guys are going to be 140kg jaguars as well. But again we'd need to know if we're comparing Adriano at empty or full as well since Almeida's Jaguar is specifically mentioned as empty so he could of also been 130kg+ with food content.