(11-29-2019, 03:06 PM)Shadow Wrote: My main point was to remind about overall situation and little gestures. Rolling on back can be submissive thing even when keeping 20 claws in between just in case. It´s one thing to submit, another one to make kind of suicide and lay flat there waiting to be bitten.

These things are complex and some people like to see (not you) in very black and white. Certain posture is only way to show submission and some other isn´t. With animals things are never that simple. Big cats as all animals are very interesting to watch and try to understand what they are doing. Sometimes submissive behavior ends fight or prevents it even to happen. Sometimes nothing is enough, when opponent is determined to "teach a lesson" or kill, no matter what.

Many times quite small gestures of submission are enough when two big cats meet. That´s one of those things making these animals so fascinating, there isn´t just one and only thing how they show their mood.

(11-29-2019, 03:21 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 03:06 PM)Shadow Wrote: My main point was to remind about overall situation and little gestures. Rolling on back can be submissive thing even when keeping 20 claws in between just in case. It´s one thing to submit, another one to make kind of suicide and lay flat there waiting to be bitten.

These things are complex and some people like to see (not you) in very black and white. Certain posture is only way to show submission and some other isn´t. With animals things are never that simple. Big cats as all animals are very interesting to watch and try to understand what they are doing. Sometimes submissive behavior ends fight or prevents it even to happen. Sometimes nothing is enough, when opponent is determined to "teach a lesson" or kill, no matter what.

Many times quite small gestures of submission are enough when two big cats meet. That´s one of those things making these animals so fascinating, there isn´t just one and only thing how they show their mood.

Yes, reading the description in @Rage2277's post I imagined it to have ended like this one (00:30).

But tigress are like completely different animals compared to males, with major behavioral differences during fighting that I have noted.

One is that the dominating animal often also crounches down before the submissive one instead of walking away like males do, no idea why.

Another is that they run around quite a lot, with some chasing & running away.

I have never seen a male tiger do anything like that, even subadults in face of dominant males. It's all very composed & tension is high.

(11-29-2019, 09:35 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 03:21 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 03:06 PM)Shadow Wrote: My main point was to remind about overall situation and little gestures. Rolling on back can be submissive thing even when keeping 20 claws in between just in case. It´s one thing to submit, another one to make kind of suicide and lay flat there waiting to be bitten.

These things are complex and some people like to see (not you) in very black and white. Certain posture is only way to show submission and some other isn´t. With animals things are never that simple. Big cats as all animals are very interesting to watch and try to understand what they are doing. Sometimes submissive behavior ends fight or prevents it even to happen. Sometimes nothing is enough, when opponent is determined to "teach a lesson" or kill, no matter what.

Many times quite small gestures of submission are enough when two big cats meet. That´s one of those things making these animals so fascinating, there isn´t just one and only thing how they show their mood.

Yes, reading the description in @Rage2277's post I imagined it to have ended like this one (00:30).

But tigress are like completely different animals compared to males, with major behavioral differences during fighting that I have noted.

One is that the dominating animal often also crounches down before the submissive one instead of walking away like males do, no idea why.

Another is that they run around quite a lot, with some chasing & running away.

I have never seen a male tiger do anything like that, even subadults in face of dominant males. It's all very composed & tension is high.

This video is one good example concerning situation where leopard rolls on his back showing submission same time as keeping guard up. A bit same as in that video of lions you shared. That lioness wasn´t keen to fight and tried to act in submissive way while of course it had no desire to be killed without a fight, if things would go to that point. Same with this leopard, it is obviously scared and try to do all it can to show, that it has no desire to attack. It wants just to go away alive.

Tension is always high, but it´s interesting that this person in posting of "rage2277" mentioned, that there have been several same kind of situations observed. Maybe we see one day photos and/or videos.

(11-29-2019, 11:02 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 09:35 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 03:21 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 03:06 PM)Shadow Wrote: My main point was to remind about overall situation and little gestures. Rolling on back can be submissive thing even when keeping 20 claws in between just in case. It´s one thing to submit, another one to make kind of suicide and lay flat there waiting to be bitten.

These things are complex and some people like to see (not you) in very black and white. Certain posture is only way to show submission and some other isn´t. With animals things are never that simple. Big cats as all animals are very interesting to watch and try to understand what they are doing. Sometimes submissive behavior ends fight or prevents it even to happen. Sometimes nothing is enough, when opponent is determined to "teach a lesson" or kill, no matter what.

Many times quite small gestures of submission are enough when two big cats meet. That´s one of those things making these animals so fascinating, there isn´t just one and only thing how they show their mood.

Yes, reading the description in @Rage2277's post I imagined it to have ended like this one (00:30).

But tigress are like completely different animals compared to males, with major behavioral differences during fighting that I have noted.

One is that the dominating animal often also crounches down before the submissive one instead of walking away like males do, no idea why.

Another is that they run around quite a lot, with some chasing & running away.

I have never seen a male tiger do anything like that, even subadults in face of dominant males. It's all very composed & tension is high.

This video is one good example concerning situation where leopard rolls on his back showing submission same time as keeping guard up. A bit same as in that video of lions you shared. That lioness wasn´t keen to fight and tried to act in submissive way while of course it had no desire to be killed without a fight, if things would go to that point. Same with this leopard, it is obviously scared and try to do all it can to show, that it has no desire to attack. It wants just to go away alive.

Tension is always high, but it´s interesting that this person in posting of @Rage2277 mentioned, that there have been several same kind of situations observed. Maybe we see one day photos and/or videos.

Edit: I just noticed, that it was a video in that posting, not a photo only. Pity that it wasn´t possible to see longer how that situation developed.

That's more of a defensive threatening than being submissive... And interspecific conflict besides. They are usually plenty interested at the begining. But the leopard's claws often tend to change their minds.
Submitting is more of an intraspecific thing though, among who understands each other's body language.

Great footage by the way, never seen a leopard sitting in open almost causally surrounded by whole lion pride. Please post a copy in the interspecific thread!

Quote:Edit: I just noticed, that it was a video in that posting, not a photo only. Pity that it wasn´t possible to see longer how that situation developed.

(11-29-2019, 11:21 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 11:02 PM)Rishi Wrote: That's more of a defensive threatening than being submissive... And interspecific conflict besides. They are usually plenty interested at the begining. But the leopard's claws often tend to change their minds.
Submitting is more of an intraspecific thing though, among who understands each other's body language.

Great footage by the way, never seen a leopard sitting in open almost causally surrounded by whole lion pride. Please post a copy in the interspecific thread!

Here is one video of tigers. This is also about it, that how do different people see things. For instance in this video it´s clear which tiger is submissive and which is dominant, imo. And it´s submissive tiger who lay down and spend time on his back too. 

Yes, it can be said, that it´s defending himself, that is self-evident. But it also show all the time submission. Submission isn´t same as wish to die. While some animals can roll on back in total submission, others can show submission same way, but keeping guard up, ready to fight if have to. 

I do agree with people thinking, that rolling on back is submissive gesture also among big cats, just not as clear as for instance among dogs. But in this video I see a very submissive tiger meeting dominant one.

(11-29-2019, 11:28 PM)Rishi Wrote:

Quote:Edit: I just noticed, that it was a video in that posting, not a photo only. Pity that it wasn´t possible to see longer how that situation developed.

(11-29-2019, 11:21 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 11:02 PM)Rishi Wrote: That's more of a defensive threatening than being submissive... And interspecific conflict besides. They are usually plenty interested at the begining. But the leopard's claws often tend to change their minds.
Submitting is more of an intraspecific thing though, among who understands each other's body language.

Great footage by the way, never seen a leopard sitting in open almost causally surrounded by whole lion pride. Please post a copy in the interspecific thread!

Here is one video of tigers. This is also about it, that how do different people see things. For instance in this video it´s clear which tiger is submissive and which is dominant, imo. And it´s submissive tiger who lay down and spend time on his back too. 

Yes, it can be said, that it´s defending himself, that is self-evident. But it also show all the time submission. Submission isn´t same as wish to die. While some animals can roll on back in total submission, others can show submission same way, but keeping guard up, ready to fight if have to. 

I do agree with people thinking, that rolling on back is submissive gesture also among big cats, just not as clear as for instance among dogs. But in this video I see a very submissive tiger meeting dominant one.

Both yours & @Rage2277's video are classic examples of submissive & defensive posturing in tigers that I was trying to convey. He & she crounches with head lowered till the last moment until the aggressor lunges in & then rolls over to claw off the assault by flailing with all four... Following which kept lying with claws raised threatening until attacker backed away.

Here's the thing. I am 99.99% sure that you won't ever find cats rolling on their backs in submission, unless there is a threat of an imminent physical assault that needs to be fought off, like in both above cases. They'll always bow or crounch.

(11-29-2019, 11:28 PM)Rishi Wrote:

Quote:Edit: I just noticed, that it was a video in that posting, not a photo only. Pity that it wasn´t possible to see longer how that situation developed.

(11-29-2019, 11:21 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 11:02 PM)Rishi Wrote: That's more of a defensive threatening than being submissive... And interspecific conflict besides. They are usually plenty interested at the begining. But the leopard's claws often tend to change their minds.
Submitting is more of an intraspecific thing though, among who understands each other's body language.

Great footage by the way, never seen a leopard sitting in open almost causally surrounded by whole lion pride. Please post a copy in the interspecific thread!

Here is one video of tigers. This is also about it, that how do different people see things. For instance in this video it´s clear which tiger is submissive and which is dominant, imo. And it´s submissive tiger who lay down and spend time on his back too. 

Yes, it can be said, that it´s defending himself, that is self-evident. But it also show all the time submission. Submission isn´t same as wish to die. While some animals can roll on back in total submission, others can show submission same way, but keeping guard up, ready to fight if have to. 

I do agree with people thinking, that rolling on back is submissive gesture also among big cats, just not as clear as for instance among dogs. But in this video I see a very submissive tiger meeting dominant one.

Both yours & @Rage2277's video are classic examples of submissive & defensive posturing in tigers that I was trying to convey. He & she crounches with head lowered till the last moment until the aggressor lunges in & then rolls over to claw off the assault by flailing with all four... Following which kept lying with claws raised threatening until attacker backed away.

Here's the thing. I am 99.99% sure that you won't ever find cats rolling on their backs in submission, unless there is a threat of an imminent physical assault that needs to be fought off, like in both above cases. They'll always bow or crounch.

(11-29-2019, 11:49 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 11:28 PM)Rishi Wrote: Both yours & @Rage2277's video are classic examples of submissive & defensive posturing in tigers that I was trying to convey. He & she crounches with head lowered till the last moment until the aggressor lunges in & then rolls over to claw off the assault by flailing with all four... Following which kept lying with claws raised threatening until attacker backed away.

Here's the thing. I am 99.99% sure that you won't ever find cats rolling on their backs in submission, unless there is a threat of an imminent physical assault that needs to be fought off, like in both above cases. They'll always bow or crounch.

And this is also a good example how differently same thing can be seen and taken. I don´t see any contradiction in it, that mentioning rolling on back as a submissive gesture. The one feeling to have upper hand doesn´t go on his back like the one showing submission. It´s done in a bit different way than for instance dogs and wolves do, but the same principle. You want to find a submissive big cat, watch which one lays down and goes on his/hers back, there he/she is.

(11-30-2019, 04:43 AM)Dennis Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 11:28 PM)Rishi Wrote: Both yours & @Rage2277's video are classic examples of submissive & defensive posturing in tigers that I was trying to convey. He & she crounches with head lowered till the last moment until the aggressor lunges in & then rolls over to claw off the assault by flailing with all four... Following which kept lying with claws raised threatening until attacker backed away.

Here's the thing. I am 99.99% sure that you won't ever find cats rolling on their backs in submission, unless there is a threat of an imminent physical assault that needs to be fought off, like in both above cases. They'll always bow or crounch.

I am pretty sure crouching is a defensive position, and lowering the head is definitely far from submission. There are even videos of tigers crouching down and lowering heads towards humans, and lowering the head seems to be a very common cat behavior when fighting. One source states lowering the head is aggression, not submission.

Quote:...you won't ever find cats rolling on their backs, unless there is a threat of an imminent physical assault that needs to be fought off...

(11-30-2019, 07:04 AM)Rishi Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 11:49 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 11:28 PM)Rishi Wrote: Both yours & @Rage2277's video are classic examples of submissive & defensive posturing in tigers that I was trying to convey. He & she crounches with head lowered till the last moment until the aggressor lunges in & then rolls over to claw off the assault by flailing with all four... Following which kept lying with claws raised threatening until attacker backed away.

Here's the thing. I am 99.99% sure that you won't ever find cats rolling on their backs in submission, unless there is a threat of an imminent physical assault that needs to be fought off, like in both above cases. They'll always bow or crounch.

And this is also a good example how differently same thing can be seen and taken. I don´t see any contradiction in it, that mentioning rolling on back as a submissive gesture. The one feeling to have upper hand doesn´t go on his back like the one showing submission. It´s done in a bit different way than for instance dogs and wolves do, but the same principle. You want to find a submissive big cat, watch which one lays down and goes on his/hers back, there he/she is.

(11-30-2019, 04:43 AM)Dennis Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 11:28 PM)Rishi Wrote: Both yours & @Rage2277's video are classic examples of submissive & defensive posturing in tigers that I was trying to convey. He & she crounches with head lowered till the last moment until the aggressor lunges in & then rolls over to claw off the assault by flailing with all four... Following which kept lying with claws raised threatening until attacker backed away.

Here's the thing. I am 99.99% sure that you won't ever find cats rolling on their backs in submission, unless there is a threat of an imminent physical assault that needs to be fought off, like in both above cases. They'll always bow or crounch.

I am pretty sure crouching is a defensive position, and lowering the head is definitely far from submission. There are even videos of tigers crouching down and lowering heads towards humans, and lowering the head seems to be a very common cat behavior when fighting. One source states lowering the head is aggression, not submission.

Not always, nor a simple one-liner... often the crouching individual is more aggressive & lashing out. I'd said what I had to in #357. 

Here's the Dublin zoo tigress being bullied again. 

Against wild tigress with mate but no actual aggression.

Quote:...you won't ever find cats rolling on their backs, unless there is a threat of an imminent physical assault that needs to be fought off...

(11-30-2019, 07:16 AM)Dennis Wrote: Why you always sending videos from Dublin zoo but ignoring this one from the zoo..

The tigress is crouching down but the male tiger to the right is the one who left alone the tigress, who is defensive

(11-30-2019, 07:04 AM)Rishi Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 11:49 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 11:28 PM)Rishi Wrote: Both yours & @Rage2277's video are classic examples of submissive & defensive posturing in tigers that I was trying to convey. He & she crounches with head lowered till the last moment until the aggressor lunges in & then rolls over to claw off the assault by flailing with all four... Following which kept lying with claws raised threatening until attacker backed away.

Here's the thing. I am 99.99% sure that you won't ever find cats rolling on their backs in submission, unless there is a threat of an imminent physical assault that needs to be fought off, like in both above cases. They'll always bow or crounch.

And this is also a good example how differently same thing can be seen and taken. I don´t see any contradiction in it, that mentioning rolling on back as a submissive gesture. The one feeling to have upper hand doesn´t go on his back like the one showing submission. It´s done in a bit different way than for instance dogs and wolves do, but the same principle. You want to find a submissive big cat, watch which one lays down and goes on his/hers back, there he/she is.

(11-30-2019, 04:43 AM)Dennis Wrote:

(11-29-2019, 11:28 PM)Rishi Wrote: Both yours & @Rage2277's video are classic examples of submissive & defensive posturing in tigers that I was trying to convey. He & she crounches with head lowered till the last moment until the aggressor lunges in & then rolls over to claw off the assault by flailing with all four... Following which kept lying with claws raised threatening until attacker backed away.

Here's the thing. I am 99.99% sure that you won't ever find cats rolling on their backs in submission, unless there is a threat of an imminent physical assault that needs to be fought off, like in both above cases. They'll always bow or crounch.

I am pretty sure crouching is a defensive position, and lowering the head is definitely far from submission. There are even videos of tigers crouching down and lowering heads towards humans, and lowering the head seems to be a very common cat behavior when fighting. One source states lowering the head is aggression, not submission.

Yes not always, nor a simple one-liner... often the crouching individual is more aggressive & lashing out. It's more a posturing of non-aggression than actual defensive stance. I'd said what I had to in #357. 

Here's the Dublin zoo tigress being bullied again. 

Against wild tigress with mate but no actual aggression.

Quote:...you won't ever find cats rolling on their backs, unless there is a threat of an imminent physical assault that needs to be fought off...

Buuuuuuuut, there are indeed cases where turning over is taken as cue by the winner.

(11-30-2019, 02:44 PM)Rishi Wrote: @Shadow the last part... The quotes got inserted wrong.