(02-08-2022, 04:56 AM)Styx38 Wrote: would this mean that Persians may also have the highest number of max sized wild Leopards in the world?

(02-08-2022, 04:51 AM)Pckts Wrote: will never buy his alleged weight. He didn't look that size then or now, he was reported multiple weights as well as disregarded by both Mohammad and Kambiz and his total length was shorter than the larger Persians used that all weighed less than 90kg.

(02-08-2022, 05:34 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: It seems so, for the moment. I checked several weights from Africa and Asia, and it seems that Iran leopards reach bigger masses in a regular basis than other populations

(02-08-2022, 05:46 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote: It's bad we lack data on Aberdare leopards isn't it. To me they are the only leopards that can rival if not even exceed the Persians in size.
We have only two records from there, both hunting records that might be reliable and both are 90+ kg males. The 92.5 kg male hunted by Tony france and the estimated 90-100 kg male. Which is a very large individual so it's probably lucky. Maybe those areas produce huge males as regular as persian ones? We'll never know. But we can say they look impressive.

This male below is dope. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
This male has by far the largest and WIDEST skull I've ever seen on a live leoaord

(02-08-2022, 05:22 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote:

(02-08-2022, 04:51 AM)Pckts Wrote: Spot patterns look a bit off between the two *Look directly beneath eye and go down*
Could be the camera resolution but they look different no?

Oh here it comes my favorite hobby. Identifying leopards based on spot pattern! Yes. They do compare. It's just that it's in different positions and the skin is stretched because of the collar in  the first image and it's more floppy in the second one as there's no collar :

*This image is copyright of its original author

It's Vin Diesel in both, there's no bigger evidence than this. 

I also compared its body spots to other images of him. They do compare.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

The most easily recognizable ones are that large rosette on its waist with a little spot inside of it. Making it a jaguar-like rosette. And the other one is the very visible amount of dots aligned on its front limb that create a vertical stripe. 

(02-08-2022, 04:51 AM)Pckts Wrote: regardless the weight claim is no different than the others who've claimed weights from 2nd hand sources that turned out to be false. 

This is a subjective estimate. I could say the same about hunting records. Hunting records are prone to exagerrate and from the same sources of 400 kg siberian tigers where were reliable hunting record. So just if some claims are prone to exagerrate (we are humans... That's our nature lol) doesn't mean that ALL claims are prone to exagerrate.

(02-08-2022, 04:51 AM)Pckts Wrote: Also, he does look better when he's full bellied compared to the images I posted

No evidence that it was full belly. That was in his prime and the other ones past his prime. This is his last sighting :

*This image is copyright of its original author

Old and skinny, before death. So the image you posted first don't depict him in his prime. He does compare to Mawenzi in his prime, if not even larger. Oh well. This is just subjective as we'll never know 

(02-08-2022, 04:51 AM)Pckts Wrote: He didn't look that size then or now, he was reported multiple weights as well as disregarded by both Mohammad and Kambiz and his total length was shorter than the larger

(02-08-2022, 05:36 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote:

(02-08-2022, 04:51 AM)Pckts Wrote: will never buy his alleged weight. He didn't look that size then or now, he was reported multiple weights as well as disregarded by both Mohammad and Kambiz and his total length was shorter than the larger Persians used that all weighed less than 90kg.

You're free to believe it was not as I've also shown you in the size comparisons thread that it exactly was about the same size as that 94 kg Jaguar.

Anyways the cat is confirmed by the email of the vet that Balam sent on modern weights and measurements of wild leopards. As much as it's confirmed on here

*This image is copyright of its original author

Now if you find it too small at first sight to be 95 kg, what about this male? 

First. Guess estimate its weight. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Done? I bet you guessestimated 60 kg at best. Well guéss what for how small it looks It's weight is 85 kgs! 

*This image is copyright of its original author

So you see, a large frame is not always needed

Animals of same species are never perfect clones of each other. 
It's pretty common that we see animals being at similar height or lengths and weight but some have longer fingers or larger feet or have larger skulls. Some animals are taller and more lanky while others carry more weight around. One example is that a Namibian leopard was 262 cm in TBL and an Indian one was about 261 cm in TBL. 
The same size? Not if I told you that the Namibian one weighed 96.5 kgs and the Indian one weighed 78 kgs, a negligible difference.

Now regarding size comparison

85 kgs vs 95 kgz

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Whether to me it does look fair. You may still disagree. It's your opinion I ain't going on debate with you. I do respect your opinion although I believe it's very clear how the 95 kg is reliable

(02-08-2022, 05:52 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(02-08-2022, 05:46 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote: It's bad we lack data on Aberdare leopards isn't it. To me they are the only leopards that can rival if not even exceed the Persians in size.
We have only two records from there, both hunting records that might be reliable and both are 90+ kg males. The 92.5 kg male hunted by Tony france and the estimated 90-100 kg male. Which is a very large individual so it's probably lucky. Maybe those areas produce huge males as regular as persian ones? We'll never know. But we can say they look impressive.

This male below is dope. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
This male has by far the largest and WIDEST skull I've ever seen on a live leoaord

It looks like a jaguar, honestly. Also leopards in the Congo area, where there are no lions, are also reputed to be of great size.

Other population is that of Sri Lanka, but I don't remember specimens as massive as these males from Aberdares, Congo and Iran. Maybe other people may present information from other areas.

I think that the difference is more about mass than body size. I checked all the sizes on the Indian leopards and I doubth that any big African or Iran leopard can surpass those lengths "between pegs". So is just about massiveness probably.

(02-08-2022, 02:31 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(02-08-2022, 02:12 AM)Luipaard Wrote: @Pckts@guate 

Quote:Yeah, considering that is exactly what I wrote. Neither specimen looks to be anything special to me.

So your answer is yes to my question (them being average-sized)?

Quote:In regards to the male I posted "M3", we all know the measurements claim was over the curves as well as him being between 4-6 years old in 2015 not to mention him having a longer BL than M2 or M1. He's a good sized male and said to be 70kg

Were the others measured differently then? I suppose not. M3 was longer, period. Heck, even M2 was almost identical to M4 but they didn't weigh him. Chances are he was as big as M4 (75kg). They stated M3 to be the biggest they had caught and again on paper the heaviest one was M4 with 75kg so he's certainly not 70kg.

Quote:Bickering over it saying "at least 70kg" means nothing, 70/75kg does it really matter?

It does matter since you tag M3 with a 70kg label whereas he's not. They didn't measure him according to the study GPS collars reveal trans-boundary movements by Persian leopards in Iran. Then again they claim he was the biggest male they caught in the area so he certainly weighs more than 75kg.

Quote:He's not near 100kg and looks more impressive to me than either of the Leopards posted.

First you said he was as impressive as the males LoveAnimals posted and now M3 suddenly becomes more impressive?

Quote:Not to mention if you're saying one comes from the same place and they said M3 was the largest in that region, how can you say the other is more impressive?

The one from the Youtube video is too from Tandoureh National park yes, just like M3, M4, ... On paper M4 is/was the largest in that region although again M3 was claimed to be the largest. I explained why the 'Youtube one' is more impressive; the adult wild boar kill says enough (i.e. perspective) IMO plus he looks bigger (e.g. ears are smaller relative to his head). Enough indicators to assume he's bigger than M3 which according to you is slightly above the average for Iranian males (66kg vs 70kg). Weird for a good sized Persian male to just weigh 70kg don't you think?

Quote:Lastly, the study you quote didn't measure any of their own cats specific to that study, it's just a collection of data. The idea that 1/5 Leopards measured reached more than 90kg is misleading.

This is why I explicitly said it was the most randomly selection there is since they didn't care about specific populations. You know very well by now that they're bigger in Northern Iran and smaller elsewhere (especially Southern/Central Iran). The probability of a +90kg Persian male is much higher in Northern Iran than elsewhere. There are circa 550 and 850 Persian leopards in Iran. Of course not 1/5 are 90kg since it includes males, females and young ones. But in Northern Iran I can guarantee you that indeed 1/5 of the males will be +90kg.

Quote:Not to mention Mohammad Farhadinia specifically states that males in the North in their prime weigh around 70kg

Pretty sure he's talking about averages just like those 4 prime males from Phinda Game Reserve (KwaZulu-Natal province in South Africa) weighed 72kg. I seriously doubt prime males from Northern Iran weigh just 70kg which is slightly more than de general average weight for Iranian males.

Quote:and Kambiz states the largest male he knows of was 88kg from the Caspian Hyrcanian to go along with the amputated leopard. Farhadinia also states the heaviest males were all under 90kg, between 75-88kg.

Again we got multiple males weighing more than 90kg despite the small sample and the weights being gathered from a whole country rather than a specific population. They literally gathered 0,06% (850 individuals at max) of the Persian leopard weights in Iran and even then 4 males weighed +90kg. It's an extremely small sample + a random selection considering weight data was gathered across the whole country of Iran. In other words, the figures would be more impressive if they were solely from Northern Iran. It would've been the equivalent of Pantanal jaguars. Those jaguars are the biggest in the world and at the same time the most studied one as well. All we need is more specific data regarding Northern Iranian leopard. Unfortunately we lack this data and even then +80kg males appear more common in Northern Iran.

Quote:So in closing, claiming those males as 90/100kg Males is most likely an exaggeration.

Maybe, but what you did is exactly the opposite. You called them nothing special after all. That's called downgrading.

"But in Northern Iran I can guarantee you that indeed 1/5 of the males will be +90kg."

No you cant, you have one cat at 91kg's and all others beneath that weight. What you can pretty much guarantee is that more often than not Leopards weighed from the north are going to be less than 90kg's and that's it.

Quote:No you cant, you have one cat at 91kg's and all others beneath that weight. What you can pretty much guarantee is that more often than not Leopards weighed from the north are going to be less than 90kg's and that's it.

(02-08-2022, 05:36 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote:

(02-08-2022, 04:51 AM)Pckts Wrote: will never buy his alleged weight. He didn't look that size then or now, he was reported multiple weights as well as disregarded by both Mohammad and Kambiz and his total length was shorter than the larger Persians used that all weighed less than 90kg.

You're free to believe it was not as I've also shown you in the size comparisons thread that it exactly was about the same size as that 94 kg Jaguar.

Anyways the cat is confirmed by the email of the vet that Balam sent on modern weights and measurements of wild leopards. As much as it's confirmed on here

*This image is copyright of its original author

Now if you find it too small at first sight to be 95 kg, what about this male? 

First. Guess estimate its weight. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Done? I bet you guessestimated 60 kg at best. Well guéss what for how small it looks It's weight is 85 kgs! 

*This image is copyright of its original author

So you see, a large frame is not always needed

Animals of same species are never perfect clones of each other. 
It's pretty common that we see animals being at similar height or lengths and weight but some have longer fingers or larger feet or have larger skulls. Some animals are taller and more lanky while others carry more weight around. One example is that a Namibian leopard was 262 cm in TBL and an Indian one was about 261 cm in TBL. 
The same size? Not if I told you that the Namibian one weighed 96.5 kgs and the Indian one weighed 78 kgs, a negligible difference.

Now regarding size comparison

85 kgs vs 95 kgz

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Whether to me it does look fair. You may still disagree. It's your opinion I ain't going on debate with you. I do respect your opinion although I believe it's very clear how the 95 kg is reliable

(02-08-2022, 10:55 PM)LoveAnimals Wrote: ^^ that was pretty well explained. No one of course is trying to make 90+ kg leopards look more frequent than they truly are as everybody agrees that a 90-96 kg (estimating also 100+ kg males) leopard is going to be as freak as a 270+ kg Lion/Tiger, 150+ kg Jaguar and so on,therefore being rare.

The only initial statement was estimating the body size of those enormous northern males and to me when comparing their build to the so called 90-100+ cougars of Patagonia they look perfectly comparable, not to mention how massive and bulky they look at least visually when compared to a 80+ kg pusher male (Mawenzi) . So to me (and a lot of others from other platforms including Mammalia server, which is also filled with researchers and qualified people) estimating these animals to be between 90-100 kg is fair.
Estimating them to be average is overrating how average leopards look like, truly. It would be like saying Waghdoh, Umarpani or Kingfisher are average sized Bengal tigers, or that Balam /Edno Jaguars are average Pantanal males (would love them to be average tho). 

We should also remember that the largest "reliably" leopard recorded is just 3.5 kg far from the 100 kg barrer, and it comes from a population that averages definitely less than Northern males in an era where leopards are endangered, considering that their numbers in some parts of Namibia are in a big decline because poaching and hunting is still barbarically legal there. So if we are still able to record 90+males from an endangered population well then imagine when their numbers were at top. 

You're all telling me that during the whole leopard historical reign, with the billions of individuals that have existed when their numbers were very high and not affected by human invasive impact no leopard was ever able to be at least 3+ kg heavier than that Namibian male? Considering there are subspecies that average much higher than Namibian leopards and that we have literally nothing about Aberdare leopards but only two records of two males that already push over 90 kgs? 

When looking at the material I guess anyone doubting the existence of 100+ kg leopard is rather uneducated or lacks commonsense logic.

As much as people that doubt 160+ kg Pantanal Jaguars to have existed through their historical reign or even now but haven't been captured yet

Quote:Not to mention one of the cats mentioned is already considered smaller than M3 which I didn't even know at the time when I said he was more impressive. Adding to the fact that he's been captured and said to be in the 70kg range

(02-09-2022, 01:06 AM)Luipaard Wrote: @Pckts 

Quote:Not to mention one of the cats mentioned is already considered smaller than M3 which I didn't even know at the time when I said he was more impressive. Adding to the fact that he's been captured and said to be in the 70kg range

You lost me here. Which male mentioned is considered smaller than Borna/M3?

(02-09-2022, 01:49 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(02-09-2022, 01:06 AM)Luipaard Wrote: @Pckts 

Quote:Not to mention one of the cats mentioned is already considered smaller than M3 which I didn't even know at the time when I said he was more impressive. Adding to the fact that he's been captured and said to be in the 70kg range

You lost me here. Which male mentioned is considered smaller than Borna/M3?

The one with the Boar since he's from the same Location and M3 is the largest captured in the region. 
I probably misread in regards to M3 being larger than this male, I think you're probably speaking on M3 being the largest of the ones actually captured?
Regardless, you guys are making way too many assumptions based off this video. I just watched it again and numerous issues occur.
For one, he's being filmed from 100s of meters away, he's being zoomed in on just to get a good glimpse

Next is the fact that the boar is completely devoured and in front of the Leopard so comparing him to that Boar is pointless. 
Trying to make an assertion that this male is somehow larger than the ones actually captured based off of this video is impossible especially since his muscle composition isn't anything special in comparison.

 Also, you asked how M3 would be less than M4 if M3's body dimensions are larger?
There are numerous ways, shoulder height differences which of course isn't specified, chest girth, limb and neck girth as well as food content. Of course since none of those are described there is no way to know, all we can go off of is the mention of his weight by the capturing facility. This of course is the same issue seen in any big cat, and it's why the longest cat isn't always the heaviest.

Quote:The one with the Boar since he's from the same Location and M3 is the largest captured in the region. I probably misread in regards to M3 being larger than this male, I think you're probably speaking on M3 being the largest of the ones actually captured?

Quote:He was the largest leopard we investigated there and was famous among visitors to the park due to the stunning pictures so many were able to take of him.

Quote:Regardless, you guys are making way too many assumptions based off this video. I just watched it again and numerous issues occur. For one, he's being filmed from 100s of meters away, he's being zoomed in on just to get a good glimpse

Next is the fact that the boar is completely devoured and in front of the Leopard so comparing him to that Boar is pointless.

Quote:Trying to make an assertion that this male is somehow larger than the ones actually captured based off of this video is impossible especially since his muscle composition isn't anything special in comparison.

Quote:Also, you asked how M3 would be less than M4 if M3's body dimensions are larger? There are numerous ways, shoulder height differences which of course isn't specified, chest girth, limb and neck girth as well as food content. Of course since none of those are described there is no way to know, all we can go off of is the mention of his weight by the capturing facility. This of course is the same issue seen in any big cat, and it's why the longest cat isn't always the heaviest.

(02-09-2022, 01:49 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(02-09-2022, 01:06 AM)Luipaard Wrote: @Pckts 

Quote:Not to mention one of the cats mentioned is already considered smaller than M3 which I didn't even know at the time when I said he was more impressive. Adding to the fact that he's been captured and said to be in the 70kg range

You lost me here. Which male mentioned is considered smaller than Borna/M3?

The one with the Boar since he's from the same Location and M3 is the largest captured in the region. 
I probably misread in regards to M3 being larger than this male, I think you're probably speaking on M3 being the largest of the ones actually captured?
Regardless, you guys are making way too many assumptions based off this video. I just watched it again and numerous issues occur.
For one, he's being filmed from 100s of meters away, he's being zoomed in on just to get a good glimpse

Next is the fact that the boar is completely devoured and in front of the Leopard so comparing him to that Boar is pointless. 
Trying to make an assertion that this male is somehow larger than the ones actually captured based off of this video is impossible especially since his muscle composition isn't anything special in comparison.

 Also, you asked how M3 would be less than M4 if M3's body dimensions are larger?
There are numerous ways, shoulder height differences which of course isn't specified, chest girth, limb and neck girth as well as food content. Of course since none of those are described there is no way to know, all we can go off of is the mention of his weight by the capturing facility. This of course is the same issue seen in any big cat, and it's why the longest cat isn't always the heaviest.

(02-08-2022, 11:24 PM)Pckts Wrote: You may not be aware but again this Leopard is now claimed to be 115kg again.
And in no way does it compare to a 115kg Jaguar. 

(02-08-2022, 11:24 PM)Pckts Wrote: There is a big difference between showing Mvumba at 85kg compared to this male right? Visual or not, Mvumba looks like a much smaller cat and in fact, he is. He's 55 lbs smaller than Brutus in each capture.

(02-08-2022, 11:32 PM)Pckts Wrote: If your claim is that Persians can get to 100kg but it's extremely rare, that's fine, no one is debating that

(02-08-2022, 11:32 PM)Pckts Wrote: Not to mention one of the cats mentioned is already considered smaller than M3 which I didn't even know at the time when I said he was more impressive.

(02-08-2022, 11:32 PM)Pckts Wrote: But if your claim is that those two cats you showed are no doubt 90-100kg's based off a single fleeting image, that's a very different debate.

(02-09-2022, 02:27 AM)Twico5 Wrote: guess it kind of resembles the male leopard in that video but we can’t be sure unless we see matching spot patterns and I definitely have seen other tandoureh male leopards that look similar