(09-06-2020, 07:48 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:

(09-06-2020, 05:12 AM)Balam Wrote: Ruxu's weight according to the Jaguar ID project:

*This image is copyright of its original author

@Dark Jaguar this is why I wanted you to double check with Tortoledo.

@Balam

That Jaguar ID Project size is way too big for him, that 156 kg is very strange, I am gonna need them to give more details on this capture and weight and also Panthera are the ones who really captures the jaguars. Maybe some other vets captured him before but I don't think thats the case.

Tortato mentioned to me answering my question the 3 largest jaguars ever captured by Panthera.org so far were Lopez 148 kg, M02 130 kg and Adriano 130 kg and only one male weighed bellow 100 kg.

And also in case he tells me the size of Gage male he could be in the 120's kg range or maybe he could be a third jaguar weighing 130 kg. Hopefully I'll find out soon Gage's size.


Also I've been seen a few comparisons of Adriano and Sossego male who also weighed 130 kg and I see they're both around the same frame overall.


About the wild horse predation, I always had the thought that jaguars could get the job done on wild horses. nothing surprising just the final confirmation.

(09-07-2020, 04:12 AM)Balam Wrote: I was doing some research on tiger killing of gaur, I decided it made sense to make one last post concerning stomach content following my email exchange with Hoogesteijn. This will hopefully help us get a better idea of what to look for when deciding if an animal is gorged or not when captured and pictures of said captures are available.

Here is a picture of a tigress that had killed a gaur and consumed a lot of meat to the point of limit. From the side angle one can see that the midsection of cats expands not only vertically but also horizontally, like a balloon, when actually gorged:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Jaguars are said to be able to consume up to 25 kg of meat in one single seating, which would create a similar look in their mid-section as 20-25 kg represent 1/6th of the mass of an extremely large male and one a fifth of an average male of 115 kg.

When we look at the pictures of the captures from Lopez, one can see that his stomach does not protrude forward as he lays on the ground, it is flat. It does lay downwards, but this is to be expected of jaguars who have wide vertical sections with short limbs:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Compare his mid-section to that of an actually gorged felid as the tigress above, and it's pretty clear he was empty, just like the Jaguar ID stated.

Asesino, the large male jaguar hunted by Siemel quoted as having weighed 158 kg, on the other hand, does show some stomach content as its stomach is expanded on the side:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Looking at the jaguar's proportions, I estimate 5-7 kg of stomach content inside of him, as he was far from gorged, but not empty either. My guess is that Asesino probably weighed in between 150-152 kg empty, which is around the maximum size that Hoogesteijn stated for Pantanal males, and is around the same size range as Lopez, and estimated large jaguars like Edno or Joker who may wader in the range as well.

Here is a picture of the head of Asesino, clearly he was a huge individual, a prime example of the size potential of Pantanal jaguars:

*This image is copyright of its original author

While agree that we should always strive to know as many details as possible of the state of an animal when it was weighed, we shouldn't be quick to dismiss very high values as "gorged individuals", not very low values (as is the case with Jairzao) as individuals in dire state. It's best to have an open mind and look at it from an objective perspective. Just like humans, there are several factors that contribute to how much an animal grows and we should keep them in mind when analyzing them.

(09-07-2020, 04:50 AM)Balam Wrote:

(09-07-2020, 04:37 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:

(09-07-2020, 04:12 AM)Balam Wrote: I was doing some research on tiger killing of gaur, I decided it made sense to make one last post concerning stomach content following my email exchange with Hoogesteijn. This will hopefully help us get a better idea of what to look for when deciding if an animal is gorged or not when captured and pictures of said captures are available.

Here is a picture of a tigress that had killed a gaur and consumed a lot of meat to the point of limit. From the side angle one can see that the midsection of cats expands not only vertically but also horizontally, like a balloon, when actually gorged:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Jaguars are said to be able to consume up to 25 kg of meat in one single seating, which would create a similar look in their mid-section as 20-25 kg represent 1/6th of the mass of an extremely large male and one a fifth of an average male of 115 kg.

When we look at the pictures of the captures from Lopez, one can see that his stomach does not protrude forward as he lays on the ground, it is flat. It does lay downwards, but this is to be expected of jaguars who have wide vertical sections with short limbs:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Compare his mid-section to that of an actually gorged felid as the tigress above, and it's pretty clear he was empty, just like the Jaguar ID stated.

Asesino, the large male jaguar hunted by Siemel quoted as having weighed 158 kg, on the other hand, does show some stomach content as its stomach is expanded on the side:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Looking at the jaguar's proportions, I estimate 5-7 kg of stomach content inside of him, as he was far from gorged, but not empty either. My guess is that Asesino probably weighed in between 150-152 kg empty, which is around the maximum size that Hoogesteijn stated for Pantanal males, and is around the same size range as Lopez, and estimated large jaguars like Edno or Joker who may wader in the range as well.

Here is a picture of the head of Asesino, clearly he was a huge individual, a prime example of the size potential of Pantanal jaguars:

*This image is copyright of its original author

While agree that we should always strive to know as many details as possible of the state of an animal when it was weighed, we shouldn't be quick to dismiss very high values as "gorged individuals", not very low values (as is the case with Jairzao) as individuals in dire state. It's best to have an open mind and look at it from an objective perspective. Just like humans, there are several factors that contribute to how much an animal grows and we should keep them in mind when analyzing them.

Very interesting point on stomach content.


By the way there are other adjustments to be done on the table. when they are all done let me know.

It's done, I'll post the updated table once you provide the new weights so it's complete. Let me know when you're ready.

(09-22-2020, 05:09 AM)Balam Wrote: I have updated the chart, so the sample is 59, and the new average 111.85, which is a significant drop but was to be expected as many of the new records involve smaller males. But this also comes to prove my point regarding averages, they are never set in stone and it's almost impossible to have a specific value remain constant for a specific population as it will all be dependant on the sample that you include. If huge males like Joker, Edno, or Balam were added, the average would go back up again, but what's really important about these kinds of tables is to collect as much data as possible to get a better record of the animals in question.