(01-31-2015, 12:29 PM)peter Wrote: ASIAN LIONS THEN AND NOW

Over the years, I've read many posts about Asian lions. It seems many think lions were unknown in Asia in the past. Many also think African lions were introduced to India by local rulers. I don't agree.  

In AVA (in the tiger thread), I posted more than once on a book written by J.F. Brandt ('Untersuchungen über die Verbreituing des Tigers und seine Beziehungen zur Menschheit', St. Petersburg, 1856). For his book, Brandt read just about anything written on the two big cats in Asia. To keep it short: there's no question whatsoever that lions had been known in Asia Minor, parts of India and the region north-west of India (up to north-east of Kabul in Afghanistan) for a long time.


WHERE LIONS AND TIGERS MET
 
Asia Minor (apart from parts of Central India) probably was the only place where tigers and lions lived in close proximity for a long time. I'm referring to the region just south of Georgia all the way down to the deserts to the south. Same for the region between Georgia and the Indus River to the east. Although both big cats lived in close proximity, Brandt didn't find a shred of evidence of interaction anywhere. Lions occupied open terrain and tigers (as well as bears) preferred elevated and forested parts of the same region.

Tigers living in Asia Minor belonged to Panthera tigris virgata. In most books and reports, they were described as somewhat smaller and darker (the stripes often were brownish) than those living in the northern part (the Caspian and the region east and north-east of the Caspian). They were also described as very wild at heart. Not suited for captivity. Those out for cubs usually had a rough time when they had found and taken cubs. There are many stories about tigresses entering villages and attacking villagers. The bond between tigresses and their cubs was well known, if not legendary.


INDIAN LIONS

It could be some local Indian rulers imported African lions at some stage and it could be some of these mixed with the local lions, but Brandt is very clear about lions in south-west Asia: they were there well before humans began writing about them. I also think they were not pushed out of India by tigers. Asian lions were exterminated by humans when these began to multiply and fire-arms and poison became available. The reason is they were much more visible and, therefore, vulnarable.


THE FUTURE OF INDIAN LIONS

Based on what I read in Brandt's book, lions, I think, could be re-introduced in most wild parts of Asia Minor. The problem, of course, is the region is unstable. Eastern Turkey, parts of southern Georgia and northern Irak, Iran and some parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan, however, could be suited. For now. My choice, strange as it may sound, would be the region in eastern Iran, north-western Pakistan and east and south-east Afghanistan. Barren and elevated it is, but largely deserted. We'd have to meet with some of the local warlords, of course. If there are, as rumours suggest, any Caspian tigers left, they would be in that part of Asia. Some of the former Sovjet Republics (in the extreme south of the former Sovjet-Union) could be suited as well. Things are a bit slow over there. Lions could boost tourism. But I would want to see a few Caspian tigers as well. 

(03-28-2015, 03:54 AM)Krillow Wrote: I think Asian lions would thrive throughout India.  Their main threat being humans, and crossing into civilization.  I think tigers, and lions can coexist no problem.  Of course occasional conflicts may arrise.  That's the case with every animals though.  Sloth bears, rhinos, elephants, tigers.   Natural conflicts occur. Historically tigers, and lions coexisted in India, the way it should be.  If not for humans, and poaching.  And I do think that tigers, and lions would stay our of each others way for the most part.  Tigers wouldn't pose a risk to relocating the lions, but like with all animals a rare conflict may happen.

(06-06-2015, 05:49 AM)Brehm Wrote:

Roflcopters\ dateline='\'1427536717' Wrote:

Krillow\ dateline='\'1427496878' Wrote: I think Asian lions would thrive throughout India.  Their main threat being humans, and crossing into civilization.  I think tigers, and lions can coexist no problem.  Of course occasional conflicts may arrise.  That's the case with every animals though.  Sloth bears, rhinos, elephants, tigers.   Natural conflicts occur. Historically tigers, and lions coexisted in India, the way it should be.  If not for humans, and poaching.  And I do think that tigers, and lions would stay our of each others way for the most part.  Tigers wouldn't pose a risk to relocating the lions, but like with all animals a rare conflict may happen.



 

Tigers and Lions have never co-existed in the past and nor will they ever in the near future, also if you did your research on Asiatic Lions properly. you'd know that there's no place besides Gir Forest for them in India. Everywhere else is far too close to tiger territories and that is going to be chaotic for not only the conversationists but the species themselves. Ultimately, one cat will greatly suffer. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

some of the Tiger Reserves shown on the Map of India, tell me exactly where the lions would go for relocation. Also, the area north of Corbett is the Terai Arc Landscape with a large population of tigers in the forests. 





 

 

 

I haven't read it anywhere yet, so i'm gonna express my thougts and idea. Not every tiger reserve is blessed with a healty population of tigers, it would make sense, to analyze some of those areas and consider them as a potential relocating place for lions. To become concrete,  i think the best option would be Sariska. Yes, it sounds strange, but after thinking about the pro's and con's, the only points which speaks against this idea are the facts, that it is one of the first tiger reserves (and therefore a matter of "pride") and (of course) political issues. The latter is  anyway a problem which can't be solved quickly (especially now because of Prime M. Modi).
But the tiger - lion conflict, could be avoided in a noble way. Passing Sariska to lions, while in the same time exchanging Kuno completely to tigers would be a fair deal:

- Lions would find a new home, with a healty prey base and a territory big enough to expand (for the beginning) 

- Tigers could start occupiyng Kuno Palpur in bigger numbers (if the population in Ranthambore should top the limit of it's optimum size) and use it frequently as corridor to Ranthambore. With approximately 1200 km² Kuno offers enough space to roam around for dozen's of tigers. Combined with the ca 400 km² of Ranthambore, it really could be a future place for a healthy tiger population. Big places with corridors to expand is something, what tigers obviously need , the Kuno - Ranthambore complex could be one of it in the long run in my opinion.

I mean, tigers were whiped out of Sarisa around 10 years ago, how many are there at the moment after relocation? 4-5? They can be captured and moved to Kuno. Sariska had his chance as tiger reserve, it is doubfull, that it will ever again become a place for a healthy tiger population and the park staff + local government will still be remembered as those, who let the tigers getting poached. If justified or not, is another question. "Sariska Lion's Sanctuary" could bring some new energy, motivation and consistency. It can be called a new chance, therefore.
And "Kuno Tiger Reserve" sounds anway much better [img]images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Just my thought's, i know it may sound's weird after the first read, but what do you guys think about it honestly, after the first round of laughing?[img]images/smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Brehm

(09-06-2016, 11:43 PM)Ravisingh Wrote:

(09-06-2016, 10:01 PM)Pckts Wrote: If you read through the whole thread you should be able to get some answers to the questions you're asking.

I used to agree with valmik but probably not so much anymore. I have pretty much defended lions in being as adaptable as any big cat. (See the Congo lion thread)

But still, the lack of hunting records or stories of Asiatic lions being hunted compared to tigers from times past beg some questions. 
Why aren't they as documented nor as many individuals measured? 

In regards to tigers of the Sunderbans, let's remove the fact that they live in the largest mangrove system in the world and suffer massive amounts of deforestation, tigers show a much wider variety of size throughout sub species compared to lions which generally don't have such size disparities between subspecies.

simply coz record keeping culture was bought in india by britishers . prior to that there were very almost no such records of animal sizes and appearence were kept by hindu aur mugals. but by the time britishers came to india lions were already very few left and were also killed within some years after british colonisations as they we most easy to find and hunt many in a single day. record of those lions were kept as mentioned by apollo in his reply.then came the tiger and finding it in dense jungles and killing one by one and keeping a long term record . what you call records are of recent history of india that is late mugal and british period when tiger was the only option to track and hunt after quick demise of lions from plains.
                                           in ancient culture of india lion has always dominated tiger
just because they were abundent in open and tiger sighting were rare.
see national emblem of india which has four heads of lions taken from maurya empires king ashoka.

(09-07-2016, 11:41 PM)Ravisingh Wrote: most difficult thing in lion reintroduction to kunno is the difference between maldari people of gujrat and natives of madhya pardesh.
1. maldaries have sticks to defend them from lions whereas kunno people have firearms (decoit region) to defend against tiger.
2. lions have a nature of coming close to maldaries coz they know these people won't harm them and visa-versa(see documentary: wandering lions of india) whereas people of kunno have rarely see a tiger so both people and tiger fear each other and avoid each other from a long distance.
                                                   so what happens when lions are realesed in kunno ..
they will not fear of people and wander like they do in gir. and people will either poison them for cattle lifting aur lions will be provoked by people due to their
fear and will result in conflict(killing of lions).
                                       keeping last lions of asia with minimum genetic variations in a single forest would definatly result in sudden extinction of lions by some disease.
                                   so only solution is educating every single kunno person about
lion behaviour and how different they are from tigers and showing them how people intrect with lions in gir.

(09-06-2016, 10:53 PM)Apollo Wrote: Nice posts @Ravisingh

I like to add few info and points


1) The lion's impact on ancient history, culture and art is significant. The major civlizations from vedic to biblical times originated in lands ruled by lions. If you take vedas and epics like Ramayana, Mahabharatha all were written in Sanskrit. Sanskrit never originated in India. These are written by Aryans who were migrated to India from Europe and Persia. In their culture Lions played an integral part. 


2) Indus valley civilization originated in the North western region of the Indian subcontinent, which is lion country. The Asiatic Lion (Panthera leo persica) roamed over a swathe of Asia, from Turkey in the west to Bihar in the east, and from the Caucusus in the north to the Narmada river in the south. In the Indian subcontinent, the lion lorded over Punjab (Pakistan and India), Sindh, Baluchistan, Haryana, Delhi, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, Bihar and Jharkhand. This is where aryans settled, ruled and then started conquering other parts of India. These are the areas where sankrit thrived. For these people lions are the King. The lion's impact on South Asian history, culture and art is significant. Mahesh Rangarajan notes in his paper 'From princely symbol to conservation icon: A political history of the lion in India': "It (the lion) was perhaps only rivalled in its power over the human imagination in India by the tiger." Adds Divyabhanusinh Chavda, author of The Story of Asia's Lions: "In the Vedic period, you had Narasimha ("Man-Lion"), the fourth of the Dashavatara of Lord Vishnu. The Buddha was known as 'Shakya Simha', the Lion of the Shakyas. His first sermon at Sarnath has been likened to (and is known as) by Buddhists as 'Simhanada' (Lion Roar). The lion is also the symbol of Mahavira. And we, of course, know of Emperor Ashoka's association with the lion." According to legend, 2,500 years ago, Vijaya, a disinherited Indian prince migrated to the island of Lanka with 700 followers. Vijaya's grandfather was a lion. His descendants, the Sinhala ('Lion people'), are today the majority ethnic group on the island, the flag of which is emblazoned with a lion too. 


3) When these people migrated and started ruling other parts of the Indian sub-continent, they started spreading there culture. From 500 AD, Rajput princes across India started adopting the title Simha instead of the classical Varman. Today, we know this surname as 'Singh', most commonly associated with Rajputs and Sikhs. Lions find constant reference in the Delhi Sultanate and Mughal periods too. Sher Shah Suri, the Afghan warlord from Bihar who dethroned Humayun, reportedly acquired the name 'Sher' after killing a lion with his bare hands. The Mughals, Persianised Turko-Mongols from Central Asia, used the regal Persian Sher-o-Khurshid ('Lion and Sun') as their personal coat-of-arms. 


4) Lions largely inhabited dry, tree-covered Savannah and low-scrub jungle, this is where people settlements were mostly found. Asiatic lions were not a man-eater (in-general), they shared the land with humans in India. Spotting lions is far easy and people respected there strength and the pride style of living. Bengal Tiger which inhabited mature-tree forests, lived in dense forests. These areas are not so suitable for human settlements. The most important thing here is, it is very very hard to spot a tiger, even in these present days most of the villagers in the outskirts of the tiger reserve never seen a tiger. Bengal tigers are notorious man-eaters, people feared them.



Regarding Indian Lion Hunting 

1) Colonel James Skinner (1778 -1841), the famous founder of Skinner's Horse and builder of Delhi's St James' Church, is recorded as shooting lions on horseback. Another officer, Andrew Fraser killed 84 lions 


2) In 1810, a General Mundy shot a lion near Hansi (modern Haryana). In the first half of the 1800s, British soldiers stationed at a cantonment in Deesa (North Gujarat) are recorded as spearing lions. And the all-time record in lion hunting in India goes to George Acland Smith, an officer who shot 300 lions near Delhi in 1857. 


3) Soldiers of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, the Sikh sovereign of the Punjab, are recorded killing lions with bayonets in Lahore in the 1830s. In Patiala, hunting lions was an annual affair in which "400 horsemen beat vast plains teeming with antelope and Nilgai. 

All this killing eventually did its job. Region after region recorded local extinctions: Bahawalpur (1800), Palamau (1814), Haryana, Baroda and Ahmedabad (1830), Sindh (1842) and Gwalior (1872). 

By 1890, when Prince Victor Albert visited India, the only place where he could find lions was the Gir forest in Kathiawar, where politics between three feuding princely states (Junagadh, Bhavnagar and Baroda) and the British Government in Bombay ensured safety for lions. Later, the Nawabs of Junagadh took on the task of preserving lions in Gir, where they survive till today.

(09-07-2016, 10:44 PM)Apollo Wrote:

(09-07-2016, 09:12 PM)brotherbear Wrote:

(09-07-2016, 10:53 AM)Ravisingh Wrote: Tigers can not displace lions from open forests coz they live in pride and lion could not displace tigers coz they are big and dangerous and live in dense forests where lions do not feel comfortable...so it was a natural balance I thing..lions occupied open areas and tigers occupied forested patchs and both avoided each other.

According to pckts at "Primates and Predator Interactions" post #34, lions have no trouble in adapting to a forest environment. This would mean that, except for the open grasslands, lions and tigers might occupy the same terrain.

Lions can adapt to forest environment and tigers can adapt to open grasslands provided if there is a good prey base and no any bigger apex predator (more adapted to that particular environment) to challenge them.
A good example is tigers in present time have adapted and successful in living in the open grasslands of central and northwest India due to the absence of lions.

Ancient India is a much different place, lions entering dense forests will have to face the more adapted and bigger tigers. Tigers entering open grasslands will have to face the more adapted pride of lions.
So the more logical decision is to avoid such confrontations.

(01-29-2017, 11:04 AM)Wolverine Wrote:

(01-21-2017, 10:11 AM)Bronco Wrote: No matter what you do this entire Asiatic lion reintroduction thing is just beating a dead horse.

I suggest the only option left is Government of Madhya Pradesh to send special forces under cover with secret mission to catch and still night time a dozen of Gir lions from those idiots and bring them in MP.... I am not sure is this a joke or not... Actually such kind of secret mission probably will not violate federal laws, the government of Gujarat is the one violating federal laws by not following the verdict of Indian Supreme Court.

(01-30-2017, 08:59 AM)Wolverine Wrote:

(01-29-2017, 09:18 PM)Rishi Wrote: Although old news, this seems to be the best option right now..
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Lions not in, Madhya Pradesh moves to populate Kuno with tigers
BHOPAL Updated: Feb 25, 2016 19:02 IST

*This image is copyright of its original author

Neeraj Santoshi 
Hindustan Times

*This image is copyright of its original author

Javadekar said the entire programme of translocating Gir lions to MP will take 25 years to complete.(File photo)

The Madhya Pradesh government is considering introducing tigers in the Kuno-Palpur wildlife sanctuary instead of waiting for the Gujarat government to translocate lions, says a note on the website of the state forest department.
The note in the sub-link titled “Special Conservation Initiatives” said: “If the stalemate is not resolved expeditiously, the state (government) may have to consider introducing tigers in the sanctuary as wasting such a prime a habitat is not in the interest of conservation of wildlife in the state…”.
“The government of Madhya Pradesh is very keen to have the lions at the earliest as the state has done everything expected from it, including the relocation of 1,545 poor families, to help conserve this national heritage…”, the note said.
In December last year, the union ministry of forest and environment cleared its stand on the state’s demand to translocate lions from the Gir National Park in Gujarat to the Kuno-Palpur Wildlife Sanctuary.
In a written reply in the Lok Sabha, Union forest and environment minister Prakash Javadekar said translocation of lions from Gujarat to Madhya Pradesh was a “long-term action” and will take more than 25 years.
The note points out that though the state government has asked the Centre to transfer a pride of lions from Gujarat at the earliest, “the government of Gujarat is somehow not inclined to provide the animals for starting the lion population in Kuno and the Centre is now seriously considering the option of using zoo bred animals of certified Asiatic lineage to start the new lion population…”
Narendra Kumar, principal chief conservator of forests, said the suggestion to introduce tigers in Kuno-Palpur came from the National Tiger Conservation Authority after a team visited the sanctuary to study prey base.
On the Centre’s argument that the re-introduction project will take 25 years, Kumar said: “We can’t wait for such a long time. The habitat has been readied for a carnivore and we will have to do something there. However, the government is yet to discuss about the NTCA suggestion.”
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The purpose of lion translocation was to create independent populations & that can be served without taking them out of the state..for the time being.

*This image is copyright of its original author

The state of Gujrat has multiple sites like Kutchh, forests of Aravalli foothills & Narmada Basin, Wastelands West of Bhuj etc. that can (probably did) house lions & should be favoured over far-off/ controversial Kuno.

"The Madhya Pradesh government is considering introducing tigers in the Kuno-Palpur wildlife sanctuary instead of waiting for the Gujarat government to translocate lions"
- that would be a grave mistake and fulfilment of  all dreams of Gujaratis, that's what they exactly want and wish to happen.

“The government of Madhya Pradesh has done everything expected from it, including the relocation of 1,545 poor families, to help conserve this national heritage…”
- 1545 families probably mean around 10 to 15 thousand people whish is a huge effort. For comparison government of Gujarat is incapable to
relocate even a 2500 people from Gir forest... They talk about "success and merit in lion conservation" but their "success" is based only to the fact that lions and their derivates thanks of God are not used in Chinese medicine and Chinese pharmacy and as a result poaching pressure on lion is insignificant with comparison to tiger poaching.

I have to confess that despite of my great love to India and her great people I start to fill some form of "Gujarato-phobia" and probably same is happening with many lion lovers through the world.

(12-07-2017, 08:31 AM)Wolverine Wrote:

(12-07-2017, 07:21 AM)epaiva Wrote: Kuno would be the only part in the world where you can find Lions and Tigers.

Absolutely. Kuno potentially could become the most interesting wildlife place in the planet, it could even overshadow Serengeti and Yellowstown. If Indians are enough wise they should understand this, even big Indian tourist business should join this idea. If first lions are introduced there and than a few tigers allowed to join from the north I am sure that all big international nature TV channels - Discovery, National Geographic, Animal planet etc will go to Kuno. Its a unique economic opportunity for India.

(12-07-2017, 09:41 AM)Wolverine Wrote:

(12-07-2017, 09:15 AM)Rishi Wrote: @Wolverine I on the other hand think it's a pretty sensible solution. A lot of money has gone into the resettlement of villagers & developing prey base.
Lack of predators for long, might cause serious problem now.

Introducing tigresses would mean that the Ranthambore spillover tigers that visit Kuno-Palpur would settle down there & in time their progeny would heal Ranthambore's genetic depression. It is a 5000km² landscape, with lots of potential..

Madhya Pradesh was contemplating rewilding zoo-bred lions anyway. Apparently Gujarat was planning to get rid of it worst inbred specimens with genetic deformities, by giving them to MP...
(I'm very happy with how long it took me to find a genetically deformed lion)

*This image is copyright of its original author

I disagree my friend. Saving of entire subspecie - Asiatic lion or Panthera leo persica is much more important task for science than helping to improve the gene pool of smallish Ranthambor tiger population (the genes of Ranthambore tigers could be freshed artificially also by importing there a tigers from other parks). Tiger is my favourite animal, but I think there are plenty of places all over of India where tigers could live, but there is only one potential new good habitat for Asiatic lions and that's Kuno wildlife sanctuary. It should be not lost. Basically you accept the position of Gijarati nationalists, their dream is tigers to colonise entire Kuno, I think some of them even plot secretly to throw a couple of tigers in Kuno and hence to destroy all Asiatic Lion reintroduction project.

(11-16-2018, 10:54 PM)Sanju Wrote:

(01-29-2017, 11:04 AM)Wolverine Wrote:

(01-21-2017, 10:11 AM)Bronco Wrote: No matter what you do this entire Asiatic lion reintroduction thing is just beating a dead horse.

I suggest the only option left is Government of Madhya Pradesh to send special forces under cover with secret mission to catch and still night time a dozen of Gir lions from those idiots and bring them in MP.... I am not sure is this a joke or not... Actually such kind of secret mission probably will not violate federal laws, the government of Gujarat is the one violating federal laws by not following the verdict of Indian Supreme Court.

lol, yes that's what i too sometimes think. lol.

(11-27-2018, 05:19 PM)Rishi Wrote:  





Better to first break their monopoly by rewilding zoo lions (hundreds to choose from outside Gujarat) 

(11-28-2018, 09:57 AM)Wolverine Wrote: So if plan A doesn't work obviously is time to be put in action plan B (captive lions).

(11-28-2018, 07:12 AM)Wolverine Wrote:

(11-27-2018, 05:19 PM)Rishi Wrote:  





Better to first break their monopoly by rewilding zoo lions (hundreds to choose from outside Gujarat) 

Why in your opinion MP authorities are still reluctant in rewilding a zoo lions? For now I cant see any serious steps and plans in this direction.