(08-09-2020, 05:37 PM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 03:49 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 10:45 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 10:06 AM)Richardrli Wrote: OK so we’ve all seen the big specimens from the Pantanal, but let’s not forget the small specimens as well considering they’re also a part of the population. My question then naturally is how often are the males there are actually under 100kg? And what is a small size range for females?

@Richardrli

Nobody is forgeting the small Pantanal male jaguars here, I make sure to add every individual to the table regardless of sizes.

From the table - As you can see in the table out of 51 Pantanal males only 5 are bellow 100 kg and 3 of those males ages are unknown ( there's a possibility they could not be adult males ).

From Panthera - Fernando Tortato told me from all male jaguars captured by Panthera org only one male weighed bellow 100 kg and he said Pantanal jaguars are really big, go to the Jaguar thread to see more details.

It just proves what I have mentioned a while ago from each small male jaguar in Pantanal  ( which is rare to happen nowadays ) there are other 4 large males or more.

So in modern days a small adult Pantanal male of 100 kg is rare to see. They're larger than you imagine.

About the females considering a large pantanal female surpass the 90 kg range and one have been registered weighing 110 kg, a 76 kg adult modern Pantanal female would be very small if you ask me.

Also Wild Cerrado male jaguars nowadays normally reach and surpass the 110 kg range, so for the Pantanal males to normally be above 100 kg is a piece of cake.

I said it the minute I came back from the Pantanal. The 100kg average used by almeida was during the heart of the Jaguar slaughter. But it wasn't just Jaguars being slaughtered but Caiman by the millions were being slaughtered each year as well. Once protections were put in place for the Jaguar and Caiman their numbers recovered. Once they had ample prey and moderate protection we saw them grow in size. Then comes the sub population of the pantanala *north and south* both of which offer slight variations of prey. 
I still believe the North is going to offer the largest of Jaguars but the South can certainly match it.
Same with Los llanos if they can offer the same protections again.
Paulo was the one who told me about Fernando Tortato and also taught me about many other Jaguars he and Paul Donahue have ID'd over the years. No offense to anyone at Panthera but none of them know as much about Jaguars in the Pantanal as people like Paulo and Paul. Not saying they aren't experts either because they absolutely are but
Panthera is there for research and generally it's about a specific category *they're in the north looking for corridors* 
But Paul and Paulo live there during tourist season, they spend every waking moment with these Jaguars. And it was Paulo who told me how the mighty Adriano was not nearly the largest Jaguar in the North and not only wasn't he in the top class but there were also quite a few who were near his size who'd be considered normal male Pantanal Jaguars. "Adriano is a bulky guy but average in frame" is what he said. "There are a few that are much larger than he is and many around his size."
From there I knew that 100kg Jaguars aren't going to last in this highly competitive "wild west" territory for long. 
The outlier to this was Marley, he was a small Jaguar who not only was born in the Northern Pantanal but never got kicked out. Paulo said he was a small guy with a fearless attitude but then it turned out that even he, the "small guy" was 120kg. For me that pretty much sealed the deal.
100kg Jaguars aren't lasting long in these highly competitive territories. They will be pushed out to the fringes and only after they grow in size and experience are they able to come back and possibly knock off one of the territory males and take their spot for a short time. I'd argue that their reigns may be some of the shortest amongst big cats but they make the most of it and are the apex of their species without question.

These large jaguars you saw there just proves my point from my post above even more, they're large animals indeed and nobody can deny that.

I get Paulo's experience on wild jaguars as well as visually sizing up the jaguars and knowing who might be larger than the other but thats not 100% accurately enough on the topic here, only the real captures and weighing them will seal the deal which Panthera could provide us.

Panthera is there for research but they're the ones who captures and verify the animals in that region ( and Central Pantanal ) and we get to see how large they really are which is the focus of the topic here.


And its great to know there are a few males much larger than 130 kg Adriano and I personally believe there are much more males much larger than Adriano throughout the whole Pantanal wetlands and not to mention the other massive male larger than Adriano I posted in the size comparison the other day one next to the other, he could be in the 140's kg easily.

And also don't forget the Central Pantanal jaguars but after what I was told that the pantanal jaguars from the 3 areas North/Central/South are the same sizewise with only different variety of preys I am not that separating sizes differences from the 3 areas as much as I used to anymore, only in case to say where the individual is from, I am saying more Pantanal in general.


About the males getting kick out they will and this male bellow I already posted a while ago in the jaguars thread he happened to show up in the Cárceres area in the entrance of Pantanal probably got kicked out of the central competitive area and could be gaining confidence. Many of these local residents have never seen a wild jaguar around there before.

Do you know if Paulo and Paul got more videos of wild jaguars interactions like the fight of Juru and Balam ( most likey recorded by one of them )?? living there they must have a few of these sort of videos.



And to wrap up yes that 100 kg pantanal male average is already buried.

This 100 kg average is more leaning towards the Cerrado male jaguars nowadays. Can't wait to get to know more individuals, still trying to figure out Rogério size and keep in mind that Leandro let slide Rogério is in the 100's kg range in one video about Tiago cerrado male.

(08-09-2020, 10:32 AM)Balam Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 10:06 AM)Richardrli Wrote: OK so we’ve all seen the big specimens from the Pantanal, but let’s not forget the small specimens as well considering they’re also a part of the population. My question then naturally is how often are the males there are actually under 100kg? And what is a small size range for females?

I'm reposting the full list of measurements we have gathered here:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Clearly males under 100 kg in their prime (not old or sub-adults) are rare, a prime male from Pantanal should be above 110 kg more often than not. We aren't posting these large jaguars because they are large, we simply post the data we receive, and it so happens that in most cases the individuals surpass 100 kg in weight. Nobody is ignoring smaller specimens of the population, they're just not as common as you might think.

(12-24-2019, 07:47 AM)chui_ Wrote:

(12-24-2019, 06:28 AM)Pckts Wrote: First off, what do you think "empty" means?
Do you think he's talking about at maximum or a cat at least that size with no additional weight added from food, which of course would make it heavier than the 130kg estimate?
This of course is why you partially quoted him leaving out the "empty" part.

I don’t get your point.

Of course his estimate for that jaguar’s weight would be with empty stomach. Why would you estimate the weight of an animal including stomach content?

Stomach content is relevant for actual recorded weights because a scale doesn’t know how much of the weight it is registering is just meat in the belly of the animal. So we need to consider stomach content in that context not with estimates.

Quote:Now in regards to larger Jaguars, Almeida quotes the at least 130kg Jaguar, Rafeal's 148kg jaguar, 120kg Jaguar and another being larger than 119kg empty Jaguar. Not to mention skulls scoring more than 21"

Again what’s your point? That there are jaguars bigger than the ones Almeida himself recorded? Of course there are, I never said there aren’t.

From Almeida’s own firsthand experience with 46 adult male Pantanal jaguars, only one was estimated at about 130kg. The point is Almeida’s own data provides us with a very reliable concise homogeneous sample which allows us to make some extrapolations. Him making reference to other big jaguars he’s heard of is besides the point.

Quote:The empty 315lb Jaguar again is far closer to empty than otherwise and unless you dissect it than how can you know for sure? The facts certainly suggest it being closer to empty than full, right?

Being closer to empty than full is not empty. That should be straightforward.

Quote:In regards to the 40 individuals quoted by you to be from the "northern pantanal" I dont recall that and I know that he hunted all over the pantanal- from Brazil to Bolivia so I'll confirm that as well.

It’s been a while since I’ve read through his books in detail but I recall reading that he hunted mostly in the northern Pantanal. Maybe you can check that.

Quote:So I suggest you leave your pompous attitude at the door, your preconceived notions on Jaguar size have been shown to be dated, you dont even acknowledge the fact that Jaguars now a days have significantly surpassed Almeidas Jaguars. Why is that, I'm curious?

I find it hard to believe these jaguars have increased in size by 30% (from 100 to 130kg) over the last few decades. The Pantanal jaguars have always enjoyed abundant prey, both natural prey and plenty of easy to kill cattle (much bigger than any natural prey!) so this sudden increase in size seems a bit far fetched.  You guys have posted a few weights and estimates from social media of some big males and are making conclusions, I’ll be convinced when I see properly published data (preferably with some info on stomach content).

6 males captured in the southern Pantanal between 2003 and 2004 averaged 99.7kg, very similar to Almeida's figure.

From the 2006 paper:"Spatial organization and food habits of jaguars (Panthera onca) in a floodplain forest" 

*This image is copyright of its original author

(08-11-2020, 03:02 PM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: How large are the jaguars in Costa Rica?

(08-11-2020, 05:55 PM)Balam Wrote: @Dark Jaguar awesome, that new weight is good because it shows a barely adult male at already 100 kg of weight, he's definitely gonna be bigger once he reaches his prime at around 6 years of age. If he's 2 years old that'd put him even as a sub-adult, 100 kg is impressive for that. I'll update the table this weekend when I have more free time.

(08-04-2020, 05:28 AM)peter Wrote:

(08-04-2020, 03:35 AM)Balam Wrote: From the jaguar directory thread, I posted a story on a Chaco jaguar who's pugmark width measured 10 cm, and I have felt is the same pugmark that measured close to 15 cm in length that I posted some time ago. @peter I wanted to ask you, based on the knowledge you have of the paw sizes of tigresses and small tigers, would a pugmark of a similar dimension compare? I've been under the assumption that tigresses usually have pugmarks of 10-12 cm in width. It would be interesting to draw the parallel because Chaco jaguars have been compared in the past to Sumatran tigers by hunters and comparing them to the data that we do have on tigers would give us a better idea of their size potential. Chaco jaguars are severely understudied and highly threatened.

BALAM (Onca?)

a - Difference between heel width and a pugmark
 
Before answering the question, I decided for a few words on the difference between a print (pugmark) and the heel width. In this photograph (pugmark of a male Amur tiger first posted by Rage), you can see the difference between a complete print and the heel width: 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Here's the tiger who left the print:

*This image is copyright of its original author

   
b - Heel width of wild Amur tigers

In wild Amur tigresses, the heel width ranges between 8,0-10,0 cm. In adult wild male Amur tigers, it ranges between 10,5-12,8 cm. 

The heel width in exceptional males can reach 13,5 cm. According to Tigerluver, a male width a heel width of 13,5 cm. ranges between 259-339 kg. One captive male Amur tiger in a UK zoo just over 600 pounds (272,16 kg.) had a heel width of 14,1 cm.

I don't remember if it's this tiger, but I do know he was just over 600 pounds as well:

*This image is copyright of its original author

c - Further reading

A few months ago, I posted extensively on the relation between heel width and weight in wild Amur tigers in the tiger extinction thread (posts 2,467-2,481 and post 2,492). Heel width, to keep it short, is one of the best indicators of weight in wild big cats (and brown bears). 

d - A wild male Amur tiger with a heel width of 13,5 cm.

For different reasons (discussed in the tiger extinction thread), researchers today are hesitant to dart healthy wild male Amur tigers. This means we have no option but to use data collected before, say, 2013. The heaviest weighed was a young adult male of 212 kg., but he still had some growing to do and chances are some individuals recently seen well exceed that mark. The male below had a heel width of 13,5 cm. 

Watch the short and very robust fore-limbs and the deep chest. I know the snow accounts for some loss of length, but it's clear this male is as robust as they come:     

*This image is copyright of its original author

 

Although the conditions in the southern and southeastern part seem to be a bit better, the northern part of Sichote-Alin seems to produce the largest males.  

e - A few pictures

Tracking a male Amur tiger. When this photograp was taken, not one of the captured males exceeded 205 kg. in weight:  

*This image is copyright of its original author

Based on what I have (old and new information), I'd say tigers living just south of the Himalayas could be the largest wild big cats today (averages). This photograph (taken in Rajaji) was first posted by Roflcopters. I do not doubt some males in that part of India are close to 650 pounds (294,84 kg.):

*This image is copyright of its original author

 

Here's one from Bengt Berg (northern India, close to Bhutan). The heaviest tiger he shot was 565 pounds. He didn't shoot the male that left the print below in order to allow him to pass on his genes. Berg saw the 565-pound male and the Bhutan tiger from very close range. The tiger he didn't shoot was quite a bit bigger (well over 600 pounds). 

Although known as the 'Killer of Man', the giant from Bhutan hunted male wild buffalos only. Every buffalo he killed was found with his enormous horns sticking in the ground. Berg was very impressed and wrote he must have been immensely powerful:

*This image is copyright of its original author

f - Chaco jaguars

The table you and Dark Jaguar posted in this thread says wild male jaguars in the southern part of Brazil are very robust for their length. Same for the photographs i saw. Weightwise, the heaviest no doubt compare to the largest Amur tigresses. As these range between 8,0-10,0 cm. in heel width, it's very likely the Chaco male with a heel width of 10,0 cm. was about as heavy as the heaviest tigress. 

What's heavy in wild Amur tigresses today? There's not much information, but the heaviest captured in the period 1992-2012 ranged between 125-130 kg. In that period, the heaviest males ranged between 200-212 kg. 

About 50-100 years ago, when Amur tigers were on their way out, individuals well exceeding that mark (males and females), have been shot. One of the largest females I know of, although still youngish, was 367 pounds (166,47 kg.). 

As a result of the population bottleneck of the thirties, forties and fifties of the last century, Amur tigers today are a bit smaller. Individual variation also has been affected. But the Russians are very serious about protection and the number of tigers is increasing all the time. As the conditions have improved as well, chances are wild Amur tigers will produce more large individuals in the near future. 

Back to jaguars. When measuring skulls, I noticed that skulls from jaguars shot in the southwestern part of South America were larger (and more robust) than those of jaguars shot in the northern part. I saw a large skull from Argentina and a few large skulls from Bolivia. Those who hunted them (referring to a few people I met) confirmed jaguars in the southwestern part of South America, apart from a few exceptions (like the jaguar recently poached in Surinam), are bigger than their relatives living in the northern part. 

Same for pumas, so it seems. Some males and females seen in Patagonia and the southern part of Chili seem to be in a different league. Weight- and lengthwise, large pumas in Canada and the northwestern part of the USA compare, but the Patagonians seem to have bigger, more rounded and more robust skulls.   

I hope you'll be able to find out a bit more about jaguars living in the northern part of Argentina. My guess is they more or less compare to Pantanal jaguars. Same for Bolivia. Anything known about Paraguay?

To finish the post, two pictures. This male definitely compares to a large male Sumatran tiger:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Skull of a male rainforest leopard (central part of western Africa, left) and a male jaguar from Bolivia (right). The skull of the leopard is flatter, but not much shorter (just over 1 inch). The upper canines of the leopard are missing, but my guess is they would have compared for length. The main difference between both skulls is the jaguar skull is more elevated and more robust (heavier). Photograph taken by 'Wanderfalke' in the Staatliches Museum für Naturkunde Stuttgart, 2012. 

The largest leopard skulls can exceed 280 mm. in greatest total length, whereas large jaguar skulls exceed 300,00 mm. Although generally a bit shorter, large jaguar skulls compare to skulls of male Sumatran tigers in quite many respects. One of the largest jaguar I know is (was) in the Netherlands. Unfortunately, the owner of the skull got cold feet just before we were supposed to meet:  

*This image is copyright of its original author

(08-24-2020, 04:27 AM)Balam Wrote: Edno is estimated to be at least 150 kg by the Jaguar ID Project, they also told me that Juru was actually never captured so I'm going to have to delete him from our table, sadly.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Actually, @Dark Jaguar can you confirm with your contact at Panthera if Juru was ever captured?