(04-23-2019, 02:12 PM)Shadow Wrote: While jaguar and leopard is in reality no contest, jaguars are simply bigger, I find puma - leopard situation much more interesting. In many occasions it is said, that puma is nro 5 what comes to sizes of big cats, but then again when looking at weights mentioned in many sites and articles it looks like that leopards are after all smaller(?). For instance in this article is said, that male pumas can weight 250 lbs and even more.

https://sciencing.com/differences-puma-cougar-mountain-lion-8514376.html

It would be interesting to know, that to what is based claim, that leopards would be bigger if this article has valid information. After all for male leopard 90 kg is on upper limit when looking overall information about them.

Quote:While jaguar and leopard is in reality no contest, jaguars are simply bigger, I find puma - leopard situation much more interesting

(04-23-2019, 03:13 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(04-23-2019, 02:12 PM)Shadow Wrote: While jaguar and leopard is in reality no contest, jaguars are simply bigger, I find puma - leopard situation much more interesting. In many occasions it is said, that puma is nro 5 what comes to sizes of big cats, but then again when looking at weights mentioned in many sites and articles it looks like that leopards are after all smaller(?). For instance in this article is said, that male pumas can weight 250 lbs and even more.

https://sciencing.com/differences-puma-cougar-mountain-lion-8514376.html

It would be interesting to know, that to what is based claim, that leopards would be bigger if this article has valid information. After all for male leopard 90 kg is on upper limit when looking overall information about them.

Quote:While jaguar and leopard is in reality no contest, jaguars are simply bigger, I find puma - leopard situation much more interesting

These three big cats overlap in size.

Mature adult male jaguar from the Amazon (n1) 
Length: 134.5cm 
Head: 63.5cm 
Neck: 55.9cm 
Chest: 92.1cm 

Adult female jaguars from the Pantanal (unspecified number) 
Length: 133.4cm (n4) 
Head: 60.5cm 
Neck: 54.5cm 
Chest: 91.4cm

Mature Adult male leopards from South Africa (n4) 
Length: 130.5cm 
Head: 59.1cm 
Neck: 58.4cm 
Chest: 86.6cm 

Adult male cougars from Canada (n7) 
Length: 139cm (probably over curves, therefore around 129cm straight) 
Head: 52cm 
Neck: 43cm 
Chest: 81cm

Bear in mind that we're comparing 2 larger jaguar subspecies and a large cougar subspecies with a mediocre leopard subspecies. A Persian or Central African male leopard would come out on top. Probably rivaling an average Pantanal male jaguar.



Also, here's a picture of a male leopard from Taï national park in Ivory Coast, estimated at 3-5 years old.

*This image is copyright of its original author

He was captured and weighed 56kg. He had a 54cm neck girth, and measured 138cm in body length (probably over the curves). 

Although nothing extraordinary in overall size, his neck girth is impressive for his size and suggests his head girth would've easily been around 56cm or more. For comparison, the average measurements of 5 mature adult male jaguars captured by Rabinowitz in Belize were: 

Weight:55.8kg
Body length: 133.6cm
Head girth: 56.4cm

So this leopards proportions appear similar to male jaguars of equal size.girth. So his proportions appear similar to male jaguars of equal size.

(04-23-2019, 03:30 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(04-23-2019, 03:13 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(04-23-2019, 02:12 PM)Shadow Wrote: While jaguar and leopard is in reality no contest, jaguars are simply bigger, I find puma - leopard situation much more interesting. In many occasions it is said, that puma is nro 5 what comes to sizes of big cats, but then again when looking at weights mentioned in many sites and articles it looks like that leopards are after all smaller(?). For instance in this article is said, that male pumas can weight 250 lbs and even more.

https://sciencing.com/differences-puma-cougar-mountain-lion-8514376.html

It would be interesting to know, that to what is based claim, that leopards would be bigger if this article has valid information. After all for male leopard 90 kg is on upper limit when looking overall information about them.

Quote:While jaguar and leopard is in reality no contest, jaguars are simply bigger, I find puma - leopard situation much more interesting

These three big cats overlap in size.

Mature adult male jaguar from the Amazon (n1) 
Length: 134.5cm 
Head: 63.5cm 
Neck: 55.9cm 
Chest: 92.1cm 

Adult female jaguars from the Pantanal (unspecified number) 
Length: 133.4cm (n4) 
Head: 60.5cm 
Neck: 54.5cm 
Chest: 91.4cm

Mature Adult male leopards from South Africa (n4) 
Length: 130.5cm 
Head: 59.1cm 
Neck: 58.4cm 
Chest: 86.6cm 

Adult male cougars from Canada (n7) 
Length: 139cm (probably over curves, therefore around 129cm straight) 
Head: 52cm 
Neck: 43cm 
Chest: 81cm

Bear in mind that we're comparing 2 larger jaguar subspecies and a large cougar subspecies with a mediocre leopard subspecies. A Persian or Central African male leopard would come out on top. Probably rivaling an average Pantanal male jaguar.



Also, here's a picture of a male leopard from Taï national park in Ivory Coast, estimated at 3-5 years old.

*This image is copyright of its original author

He was captured and weighed 56kg. He had a 54cm neck girth, and measured 138cm in body length (probably over the curves). 

Although nothing extraordinary in overall size, his neck girth is impressive for his size and suggests his head girth would've easily been around 56cm or more. For comparison, the average measurements of 5 mature adult male jaguars captured by Rabinowitz in Belize were: 

Weight:55.8kg
Body length: 133.6cm
Head girth: 56.4cm

So this leopards proportions appear similar to male jaguars of equal size.girth. So his proportions appear similar to male jaguars of equal size.

I am not interested about overlapping in this, but about leopards and pumas. Jaguars are clearly bigger than these two and that is common knowledge.

But when we are talking about leopards and pumas, there isn´t only overlapping, smallest and biggest are all in about same sizes. But then again there are in many places mentioned weights of pumas, which look like to be a bit heavier than leopards.

Your agenda with leopards compared to jaguars is quite worn out. Everyone knows, that leopards aren´t gaining same weights as big jaguars and that is the reason why jaguars have status to be the third largest big cat in the world. It is no contest and you just waste your time if you try to convince someone here to think otherwise. 

Someone has said somewhere, choose your battles. So if you want to debate about something and hope to be successful, it is not good to pick up hopeless case :)

Quote:I am not interested about overlapping in this, but about leopards and pumas. Jaguars are clearly bigger than these two and that is common knowledge.

Quote:But when we are talking about leopards and pumas, there isn´t only overlapping, smallest and biggest are all in about same sizes. But then again there are in many places mentioned weights of pumas, which look like to be a bit heavier than leopards.

Quote:Your agenda with leopards compared to jaguars is quite worn out. Everyone knows, that leopards aren´t gaining same weights as big jaguars and that is the reason why jaguars have status to be the third largest big cat in the world.

Quote:It is no contest and you just waste your time if you try to convince someone here to think otherwise. Someone has said somewhere, choose your battles. So if you want to debate about something and hope to be successful, it is not good to pick up hopeless case :)

(04-23-2019, 03:42 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(04-23-2019, 03:30 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(04-23-2019, 03:13 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(04-23-2019, 02:12 PM)Shadow Wrote: While jaguar and leopard is in reality no contest, jaguars are simply bigger, I find puma - leopard situation much more interesting. In many occasions it is said, that puma is nro 5 what comes to sizes of big cats, but then again when looking at weights mentioned in many sites and articles it looks like that leopards are after all smaller(?). For instance in this article is said, that male pumas can weight 250 lbs and even more.

https://sciencing.com/differences-puma-cougar-mountain-lion-8514376.html

It would be interesting to know, that to what is based claim, that leopards would be bigger if this article has valid information. After all for male leopard 90 kg is on upper limit when looking overall information about them.

Quote:While jaguar and leopard is in reality no contest, jaguars are simply bigger, I find puma - leopard situation much more interesting

These three big cats overlap in size.

Mature adult male jaguar from the Amazon (n1) 
Length: 134.5cm 
Head: 63.5cm 
Neck: 55.9cm 
Chest: 92.1cm 

Adult female jaguars from the Pantanal (unspecified number) 
Length: 133.4cm (n4) 
Head: 60.5cm 
Neck: 54.5cm 
Chest: 91.4cm

Mature Adult male leopards from South Africa (n4) 
Length: 130.5cm 
Head: 59.1cm 
Neck: 58.4cm 
Chest: 86.6cm 

Adult male cougars from Canada (n7) 
Length: 139cm (probably over curves, therefore around 129cm straight) 
Head: 52cm 
Neck: 43cm 
Chest: 81cm

Bear in mind that we're comparing 2 larger jaguar subspecies and a large cougar subspecies with a mediocre leopard subspecies. A Persian or Central African male leopard would come out on top. Probably rivaling an average Pantanal male jaguar.



Also, here's a picture of a male leopard from Taï national park in Ivory Coast, estimated at 3-5 years old.

*This image is copyright of its original author

He was captured and weighed 56kg. He had a 54cm neck girth, and measured 138cm in body length (probably over the curves). 

Although nothing extraordinary in overall size, his neck girth is impressive for his size and suggests his head girth would've easily been around 56cm or more. For comparison, the average measurements of 5 mature adult male jaguars captured by Rabinowitz in Belize were: 

Weight:55.8kg
Body length: 133.6cm
Head girth: 56.4cm

So this leopards proportions appear similar to male jaguars of equal size.girth. So his proportions appear similar to male jaguars of equal size.

I am not interested about overlapping in this, but about leopards and pumas. Jaguars are clearly bigger than these two and that is common knowledge.

But when we are talking about leopards and pumas, there isn´t only overlapping, smallest and biggest are all in about same sizes. But then again there are in many places mentioned weights of pumas, which look like to be a bit heavier than leopards.

Your agenda with leopards compared to jaguars is quite worn out. Everyone knows, that leopards aren´t gaining same weights as big jaguars and that is the reason why jaguars have status to be the third largest big cat in the world. It is no contest and you just waste your time if you try to convince someone here to think otherwise. 

Someone has said somewhere, choose your battles. So if you want to debate about something and hope to be successful, it is not good to pick up hopeless case :)

Quote:I am not interested about overlapping in this, but about leopards and pumas. Jaguars are clearly bigger than these two and that is common knowledge.

I never said otherwise. But you ignoring or not bothering that there is overlapping between them is up to you.

Quote:But when we are talking about leopards and pumas, there isn´t only overlapping, smallest and biggest are all in about same sizes. But then again there are in many places mentioned weights of pumas, which look like to be a bit heavier than leopards.

Take another look at the measurements I just shared. The leopard has clearly a far bigger skull and massive neck compared to the cougar. Overall the cougar is differently proportioned than the 2 pantherine cats. The difference in neck and chest girth is also indicated by a few other samples and this is also the impression you get from photographs, cougars of either sex generally do not appear as compact in build as jaguars and male leopards which often appear more deep chested and with a more massive head/neck area. Instead, the cougar appears to be a leggier animal with more of its weight probably coming from the limbs which often do look quite muscular.

Quote:Your agenda with leopards compared to jaguars is quite worn out. Everyone knows, that leopards aren´t gaining same weights as big jaguars and that is the reason why jaguars have status to be the third largest big cat in the world.

Again, I never said otherwise. Also my agenda? All I do is show people with PROOF that there is overlapping. The jaguar is the bigger overall which is indeed why it's the third largest cat.

Quote:It is no contest and you just waste your time if you try to convince someone here to think otherwise. Someone has said somewhere, choose your battles. So if you want to debate about something and hope to be successful, it is not good to pick up hopeless case :)

It's not even a debate. It's a FACT. Also, I don't have to convince anyone. I'm just glad that there's a forum where I can share this knowledge. Too bad you're being hostile towards me.

(04-25-2019, 02:37 PM)Shadow Wrote: This is for Luipaard concerning thread rainforest leopards:


I was just checking, that I remembered right some charts. Sometimes it is easier to take one detail at the time. I find those skull measurements interesting just in that way, that what differences there are when compared to other leopards. Comparing to jaguars based on skull size, like it would mean something in overall sizes is much more complicated matter and I haven´t found your reasoning convincing in it. When looking at heads of jaguars and leopards, there just is that difference, I haven´t seen any leopard with as robust head as jaguars have. But of course jaguars are famous of their bite and they for sure look like to have muscle structure made for it.

A bit same as if you look at German shepherd and rottweiler. I am not sure about skull sizes, but it takes one look to know, which one has more robust muscles in head and jaws. So if you are trying to use length and width of skulls of leopards as some argument in it, that almost same skull size of leopard would mean about same body weight as jaguar has... then I have to say, that I haven´t yet found you convincing. But if you just use those skull measurements in comparison to other leopards, then it is a different thing.

Quote:I haven´t seen any leopard with as robust head as jaguars have.

Quote:So if you are trying to use length and width of skulls of leopards as some argument in it, that almost same skull size of leopard would mean about same body weight as jaguar has...

Quote:But if you just use those skull measurements in comparison to other leopards, then it is a different thing.

(04-25-2019, 03:35 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(04-25-2019, 02:37 PM)Shadow Wrote: This is for Luipaard concerning thread rainforest leopards:


I was just checking, that I remembered right some charts. Sometimes it is easier to take one detail at the time. I find those skull measurements interesting just in that way, that what differences there are when compared to other leopards. Comparing to jaguars based on skull size, like it would mean something in overall sizes is much more complicated matter and I haven´t found your reasoning convincing in it. When looking at heads of jaguars and leopards, there just is that difference, I haven´t seen any leopard with as robust head as jaguars have. But of course jaguars are famous of their bite and they for sure look like to have muscle structure made for it.

A bit same as if you look at German shepherd and rottweiler. I am not sure about skull sizes, but it takes one look to know, which one has more robust muscles in head and jaws. So if you are trying to use length and width of skulls of leopards as some argument in it, that almost same skull size of leopard would mean about same body weight as jaguar has... then I have to say, that I haven´t yet found you convincing. But if you just use those skull measurements in comparison to other leopards, then it is a different thing.

Quote:I haven´t seen any leopard with as robust head as jaguars have.

Correct, but as I've showed already, Central African males have a more robust head than a South African leopard. These leopards have skulls closer to jaguars than any other leopard subspecies (bar Persians).

Quote:So if you are trying to use length and width of skulls of leopards as some argument in it, that almost same skull size of leopard would mean about same body weight as jaguar has...

No I just use this comparison to show that Central African leopards are larger than their South African counterpart. Isn't it interesting that their average skull size is about the same of Amazon jaguars (80kg) and Pantanal jaguaresses (78kg)? I find that interesting and proves to me that Central African males PROBABLY average around the same size. If some particular South African males average 70kg, why can't a more robust and larger subspecies like the Central African leopard average higher? There are a lot of indicators that this is the case.

Quote:But if you just use those skull measurements in comparison to other leopards, then it is a different thing.

Well do that comparison and you'll see that Central African leopards have a way higher average skull size than South African leopards. South African leopards usually average around 60-70kg depending which region. What are the odds that a Central African leopard will average the same? As you may know, skull measurements are a good indicator of how large an animal is. Researchers use this method to estimate an animal size aswell.

I'm just really into these particular leopards. Not a lot of people know all this information. These leopards, alongside Persian leopards are in a different league.

(04-26-2019, 12:55 AM)Luipaard Wrote: But that's not the right thing to do either, I'm comparing a Central African male with a jaguar and you're showing me 2 random, captive animals for comparison.

That's like me showing a random video of a Mexican jaguar in the same enclosure with a Central African male, and saying that jaguars are smaller than these leopards.

Comparing them is difficult as they overlap in size. Yes, I already agreed on the fact that jaguars are bigger and more robust overall. That still doesn't mean that Central African leopards will look small and slender like in that video you shared. I'm convinced that the difference would be marginal.

As for Jo, I assume she knows what she's talking about being a Panthera researcher. Her opinion shouldn't be ignored.

(04-26-2019, 02:02 AM)Pckts Wrote: Central African Leopard 

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.africahunting.com/media/leopard-hunted-in-central-african-republic.14744/

*This image is copyright of its original author

http://www.africahunting.com/hunting-pictures-videos/showphoto.php?photo=14757&title=hunting-leopard-in-central-african-republic&cat=501

*This image is copyright of its original author

http://www.africahunting.com/hunting-pictures-videos/showphoto.php?photo=14756&title=hunting-leopard-in-central-african-republic&cat=501

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Not that I condone any of this but as you can see, Central African Leopards aren't producing any larger Leopard in comparison to E. African For instance

*This image is copyright of its original author

Actual Size of Red River Hog

*This image is copyright of its original author

and Dulkier

*This image is copyright of its original author

The 2 Favorite Prey Items of C. African Leopards and as you can see, no larger than a Warthog

*This image is copyright of its original author

For Comparison, this is a Bali Tiger hunted by  M. Zanveld in 1920s

*This image is copyright of its original author

Bali Tigers are said to be 100kg and assuming this fellow here is 100kg it's safe to say no Leopard shown would be close to this guys size.

(04-26-2019, 02:02 AM)Pckts Wrote: Central African Leopard 

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.africahunting.com/media/leopard-hunted-in-central-african-republic.14744/

*This image is copyright of its original author

http://www.africahunting.com/hunting-pictures-videos/showphoto.php?photo=14757&title=hunting-leopard-in-central-african-republic&cat=501

*This image is copyright of its original author

http://www.africahunting.com/hunting-pictures-videos/showphoto.php?photo=14756&title=hunting-leopard-in-central-african-republic&cat=501

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Not that I condone any of this but as you can see, Central African Leopards aren't producing any larger Leopard in comparison to E. African For instance

*This image is copyright of its original author

Actual Size of Red River Hog

*This image is copyright of its original author

and Dulkier

*This image is copyright of its original author

The 2 Favorite Prey Items of C. African Leopards and as you can see, no larger than a Warthog

*This image is copyright of its original author

For Comparison, this is a Bali Tiger hunted by  M. Zanveld in 1920s

*This image is copyright of its original author

Bali Tigers are said to be 100kg and assuming this fellow here is 100kg it's safe to say no Leopard shown would be close to this guys size.