(08-04-2020, 03:35 AM)Balam Wrote: From the jaguar directory thread, I posted a story on a Chaco jaguar who's pugmark width measured 10 cm, and I have felt is the same pugmark that measured close to 15 cm in length that I posted some time ago. @peter I wanted to ask you, based on the knowledge you have of the paw sizes of tigresses and small tigers, would a pugmark of a similar dimension compare? I've been under the assumption that tigresses usually have pugmarks of 10-12 cm in width. It would be interesting to draw the parallel because Chaco jaguars have been compared in the past to Sumatran tigers by hunters and comparing them to the data that we do have on tigers would give us a better idea of their size potential. Chaco jaguars are severely understudied and highly threatened.

(08-04-2020, 06:06 AM)Balam Wrote: @peter thanks for the explanation! @Dark Jaguar had recently posted on the size comparisons thread the pug mark of a jaguar that measured 14 cm in total, although now by reading your explanation I can see that taking the heel width is the best and most accurate way to gage overall size. Maybe Dark can repost that picture here for is to analyze the heel width.

With that in mind, my guess is that a jaguar with complete paw width of 10 cm would probably yield a heel width of around 8 cm, which still somewhat compares to that of a tigress. Now, I recall reading that proportionally jaguars have the widest paws on the Pantherines, so using the paw widths to compare with those of tigers might end up providing inaccurate results as the latter can still grow bigger with a proportionally thinner paw (I will investigate this further and maybe locate the study I read this from, it was a while ago).

The past paragraph does leads me to believe that similar to skull length, paw size might not be the best indicator go use when comparing the sizes of two animals. A clear example of this are the longer skulls we see on lions, that sometimes both proportionally and totally end being longer than those than tigers, even if the tiger is the heavier animal. Nonetheless having this data from Chaco jaguars gives an inside on them, hopefully we can continue getting more in the upcoming months.

(08-09-2020, 10:06 AM)Richardrli Wrote: OK so we’ve all seen the big specimens from the Pantanal, but let’s not forget the small specimens as well considering they’re also a part of the population. My question then naturally is how often are the males there are actually under 100kg? And what is a small size range for females?

(08-09-2020, 10:06 AM)Richardrli Wrote: OK so we’ve all seen the big specimens from the Pantanal, but let’s not forget the small specimens as well considering they’re also a part of the population. My question then naturally is how often are the males there are actually under 100kg? And what is a small size range for females?

(08-09-2020, 10:45 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 10:06 AM)Richardrli Wrote: OK so we’ve all seen the big specimens from the Pantanal, but let’s not forget the small specimens as well considering they’re also a part of the population. My question then naturally is how often are the males there are actually under 100kg? And what is a small size range for females?

@Richardrli

Nobody is forgeting the small Pantanal male jaguars here, I make sure to add every individual to the table regardless of sizes.

From the table - As you can see in the table out of 51 Pantanal males only 5 are bellow 100 kg and 3 of those males ages are unknown ( there's a possibility they could not be adult males ).

From Panthera - Fernando Tortato told me from all male jaguars captured by Panthera org only one male weighed bellow 100 kg and he said Pantanal jaguars are really big, go to the Jaguar thread to see more details.

It just proves what I have mentioned a while ago from each small male jaguar in Pantanal  ( which is rare to happen nowadays ) there are other 4 large males or more.

So in modern days a small adult Pantanal male of 100 kg is rare to see. They're larger than you imagine.

About the females considering a large pantanal female surpass the 90 kg range and one have been registered weighing 110 kg, a 76 kg adult modern Pantanal female would be very small if you ask me.

Also Wild Cerrado male jaguars nowadays normally reach and surpass the 110 kg range, so for the Pantanal males to normally be above 100 kg is a piece of cake.

(08-09-2020, 03:49 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 10:45 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 10:06 AM)Richardrli Wrote: OK so we’ve all seen the big specimens from the Pantanal, but let’s not forget the small specimens as well considering they’re also a part of the population. My question then naturally is how often are the males there are actually under 100kg? And what is a small size range for females?

@Richardrli

Nobody is forgeting the small Pantanal male jaguars here, I make sure to add every individual to the table regardless of sizes.

From the table - As you can see in the table out of 51 Pantanal males only 5 are bellow 100 kg and 3 of those males ages are unknown ( there's a possibility they could not be adult males ).

From Panthera - Fernando Tortato told me from all male jaguars captured by Panthera org only one male weighed bellow 100 kg and he said Pantanal jaguars are really big, go to the Jaguar thread to see more details.

It just proves what I have mentioned a while ago from each small male jaguar in Pantanal  ( which is rare to happen nowadays ) there are other 4 large males or more.

So in modern days a small adult Pantanal male of 100 kg is rare to see. They're larger than you imagine.

About the females considering a large pantanal female surpass the 90 kg range and one have been registered weighing 110 kg, a 76 kg adult modern Pantanal female would be very small if you ask me.

Also Wild Cerrado male jaguars nowadays normally reach and surpass the 110 kg range, so for the Pantanal males to normally be above 100 kg is a piece of cake.

I said it the minute I came back from the Pantanal. The 100kg average used by almeida was during the heart of the Jaguar slaughter. But it wasn't just Jaguars being slaughtered but Caiman by the millions were being slaughtered each year as well. Once protections were put in place for the Jaguar and Caiman their numbers recovered. Once they had ample prey and moderate protection we saw them grow in size. Then comes the sub population of the pantanala *north and south* both of which offer slight variations of prey. 
I still believe the North is going to offer the largest of Jaguars but the South can certainly match it.
Same with Los llanos if they can offer the same protections again.
Paulo was the one who told me about Fernando Tortato and also taught me about many other Jaguars he and Paul Donahue have ID'd over the years. No offense to anyone at Panthera but none of them know as much about Jaguars in the Pantanal as people like Paulo and Paul. Not saying they aren't experts either because they absolutely are but
Panthera is there for research and generally it's about a specific category *they're in the north looking for corridors* 
But Paul and Paulo live there during tourist season, they spend every waking moment with these Jaguars. And it was Paulo who told me how the mighty Adriano was not nearly the largest Jaguar in the North and not only wasn't he in the top class but there were also quite a few who were near his size who'd be considered normal male Pantanal Jaguars. "Adriano is a bulky guy but average in frame" is what he said. "There are a few that are much larger than he is and many around his size."
From there I knew that 100kg Jaguars aren't going to last in this highly competitive "wild west" territory for long. 
The outlier to this was Marley, he was a small Jaguar who not only was born in the Northern Pantanal but never got kicked out. Paulo said he was a small guy with a fearless attitude but then it turned out that even he, the "small guy" was 120kg. For me that pretty much sealed the deal.
100kg Jaguars aren't lasting long in these highly competitive territories. They will be pushed out to the fringes and only after they grow in size and experience are they able to come back and possibly knock off one of the territory males and take their spot for a short time. I'd argue that their reigns may be some of the shortest amongst big cats but they make the most of it and are the apex of their species without question.

(08-09-2020, 05:59 PM)Balam Wrote: Since we're discussing sizes, what do you guys make of these controversial weights quoted in the scientific literature for jaguars hunted in los Llanos?

*This image is copyright of its original author

The reports come from second-hand sources, but if they are accurate, my thoughts are that the 180 kg specimen was probably full-bellied, but even then, if we were to remove 12 kg of weight, we're still left with a 168 kg animal, which I don't think it's entirely impossible for historic Llanos specimens. Los Llanos had for centuries hundreds of years thousands of feral cattle with no control living in the area before they were recaptured in mass in the 1800s from the 1400s, there's at least 4 centuries where jaguars had an unlimited amount of cattle supply and it wouldn't surprise if some of them reached the prehistoric sizes that we have spoken about before due to the large biomass of prey available.

(08-09-2020, 06:11 PM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:

(08-09-2020, 05:59 PM)Balam Wrote: Since we're discussing sizes, what do you guys make of these controversial weights quoted in the scientific literature for jaguars hunted in los Llanos?

*This image is copyright of its original author

The reports come from second-hand sources, but if they are accurate, my thoughts are that the 180 kg specimen was probably full-bellied, but even then, if we were to remove 12 kg of weight, we're still left with a 168 kg animal, which I don't think it's entirely impossible for historic Llanos specimens. Los Llanos had for centuries hundreds of years thousands of feral cattle with no control living in the area before they were recaptured in mass in the 1800s from the 1400s, there's at least 4 centuries where jaguars had an unlimited amount of cattle supply and it wouldn't surprise if some of them reached the prehistoric sizes that we have spoken about before due to the large biomass of prey available.

I think the 159 kg male could be possibly real because of 3 things, first the Los Llanos ( in perfect conditions ) got massive jaguars which rivals Pantanal jaguar, the second reason is that giving that one EMPTY Pantanal male jaguar named Lopez weighed 148 kg, and third counting that Shaka empty weighed 118 kg and full bellied weighed 131.4 kg....

There are very good possibilities of the 159 kg male being real.


about the 180 kg male ...... they're gonna need to give me more proof than that